To Live You Must Die

[Luckers]

The one thing is, Gawyn doing something bad to Rand can't really be called betraying anything. Gawyn has never owed Rand loyalty, and he's always been clear on that.

 

It could be Gawyn betraying Egwene to attack Rand... but TofM makes that seem less likely.

[thisguy]

The one thing is, Gawyn doing something bad to Rand can't really be called betraying anything. Gawyn has never owed Rand loyalty, and he's always been clear on that.

 

It could be Gawyn betraying Egwene to attack Rand... but TofM makes that seem less likely.

Sounds good. How about this:

 

"That quote could also be foreshadowing of the mind-body switch some people are speculating about. Rand's mind in Moridin's body - "darkness fits the sun". :D "

[thisguy]

But, knowing that Rand is the DR, and knowing he's needed to beat the DO, wouldn't turning against him be a betrayal? I do see what you mean, though.

[Luckers]

The one thing is, Gawyn doing something bad to Rand can't really be called betraying anything. Gawyn has never owed Rand loyalty, and he's always been clear on that.

 

It could be Gawyn betraying Egwene to attack Rand... but TofM makes that seem less likely.

Sounds good. How about this:

 

"That quote could also be foreshadowing of the mind-body switch some people are speculating about. Rand's mind in Moridin's body - "darkness fits the sun". :D "

 

Lol, if that does relate to the bodyswap at least it may mean a cut back on sanctimonius Jesus Rand.

[thisguy]

I haven't reread the books in at least 5 years. I just read the last two and relied on my memory. I just finished rereading the first book and was blown away by all the foreshadowing.

[Edorion]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

[thisguy]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

I think I did speculate on one of these threads recently that callandor would be used by Rand to stab himself. I don't know about that destroying the Nae'blis though....

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

I like that theory but why assume it will be Narishma? Maybe thats Logain's glory to come? Or perhaps it doesn't kill moridin at all, but helps him to have a change of heart? So moridin 'draws it out and follows after' in sealing the bore. That will also give you the black hand grasping callandor. Just spitballing here, cool idea though.

[TootThatHorn]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

I like that theory but why assume it will be Narishma? Maybe thats Logain's glory to come? Or perhaps it doesn't kill moridin at all, but helps him to have a change of heart? So moridin 'draws it out and follows after' in sealing the bore. That will also give you the black hand grasping callandor. Just spitballing here, cool idea though.

 

that would be pretty cool

[Luckers]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

I like that theory but why assume it will be Narishma? Maybe thats Logain's glory to come? Or perhaps it doesn't kill moridin at all, but helps him to have a change of heart? So moridin 'draws it out and follows after' in sealing the bore. That will also give you the black hand grasping callandor. Just spitballing here, cool idea though.

 

I assume he thinks that because of the prophecy that states that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'Follow After'.

[Terez]

Just hit me - I don't know if this has been said here so, if it has, forgive me.

 

Christ was betrayed by Judas. Arthur, it can be argued, was betrayed by his own son. So, I'm guessing that somebody betrays Rand in a way that leads to his demise. As others have pointed out, there's some possible foreshadowing of Gawyn betraying someone and one of those quotes is:

 

""Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun."

 

LTT is the lord of morning.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Prince of the Dawn, He Who Comes With the Dawn, etc. The prophecies and foreshadowings taken together suggest that the sun will be dark for 3 days while Rand is dead. The second dawn will accompany his resurrection. (See the first quote in my sig; that is the least blatant of the three foreshadowings suggesting Rand will be dead for 3 days.)

 

The one thing is, Gawyn doing something bad to Rand can't really be called betraying anything. Gawyn has never owed Rand loyalty, and he's always been clear on that.

 

It could be seen as betraying the Light, or betraying all of the people who are depending on Rand to save the world.

 

It could be Gawyn betraying Egwene to attack Rand... but TofM makes that seem less likely.

 

Because of his loss of motive or because of his decision to obey her? There are a few believable scenarios that explain both. One is that he might hear Egwene say that Rand must be stopped from breaking the seals, whatever it takes, and act on his own, in a sort of Suroth-Alwhin-Liandrin scenario. Gawyn takes her too literally, maybe even realizes he's taking her words too far and does it anyway.

 

But ever since Gawyn gave up his old motive to kill Rand, I think it more likely that Egwene will be involved. It was difficult to see with the old motive, and that was frustrating because Egwene is so heavily foreshadowed to be involved in Rand's death.

[Luckers]

The loss of motive. I mean, yes, it could be a misdirect, but yeah....

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

I like that theory but why assume it will be Narishma? Maybe thats Logain's glory to come? Or perhaps it doesn't kill moridin at all, but helps him to have a change of heart? So moridin 'draws it out and follows after' in sealing the bore. That will also give you the black hand grasping callandor. Just spitballing here, cool idea though.

 

I assume he thinks that because of the prophecy that states that the man who draws Callandor out of the Heart will 'Follow After'.

I believe he was implying the "into the heart" prophecy had not been fulfilled at all. It is assumed the "heart" was the heart of the stone, this theory suggests the "heart" in question is rand's heart. So whoever "draws it out and follows after" is yet to be determined. It could in theory be anyone if that is the case.... Not sure if im explaining very well, hope this makes sense.

[Pug]

How about no body swap, Rand realizes his connection to Moridin, and the un-healable darkness within him preventing the land from healing and "sheathes" Callandor in himself to destroy the Nae'blis. Narishma "draws it out" of his body and follows after in the task of sealing the bore and restoring the world.

 

It would be Logain who draws it out and follows after, and thus fulfilling Mins viewing if him crowned in glory.

[BNICK1026]

What if it is Egwene herself that betrays him. IE the forshadowing from TDR that BS suggests? Perhaps in her attempt to stop him from breaking the seals she inadvertantly (spelling) kills him instead? Perhaps the struggle with Egwene gives Gawyn the chance to strike at Rand?

 

Does Gawyn know his mother is alive? Perhaps a struggle between Rand and Egwene happens and Gawyn, fearing losing Egwene like his mother both to Rand, kills him.

 

That would then fit in with the possible forshadowing from Chp 27 TDR to do with "Gentle him just as soon kill him" adlibbing as I am at work and don't have access to my books.

[Terez]

Does Gawyn know his mother is alive?

 

Yup. They were reunited at the end of TOM.

[Vardar]

The one thing is, Gawyn doing something bad to Rand can't really be called betraying anything. Gawyn has never owed Rand loyalty, and he's always been clear on that.

 

It could be Gawyn betraying Egwene to attack Rand... but TofM makes that seem less likely.

 

Well, wouldn't it be betraying the world? I mean Gawyn is on the side of good, so killing Rand at this point is pretty dirty.

 

Plus he has 0 reason to do it, he knows his mum is alive.

[Terez]

There are other reasons aside from that. Egwene seems to believe that Rand isn't entirely in control of his actions, even now. She thinks he truly wants her to stop him from breaking the seals.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There are other reasons aside from that. Egwene seems to believe that Rand isn't entirely in control of his actions, even now. She thinks he truly wants her to stop him from breaking the seals.

If Rand ended up getting killed because of Egwene before he even goes to Shayol Ghul I doubt I could stop laughing for the coming weeks.

[Terez]

Why?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Why?

 

The reactions of course. The entire alliance would break apart, not even Elayne would stick to Egwene after this.

 

Elayne: "Why did you kill him Egwene?"

Egwene: "Well, you know how stubborn he can be and I got a bit angry."

Elayne: "And then you burned the hope for mankind to ashes."

Egwene: "But don't worry I'm sure Nynaeve can heal death or rip him out of TAR or something."

Nynaeve: "I can do what?"

 

 

Moridin and the DO would collapse with laughter at the light side killing the Dragon.

[Terez]

Why?

 

The reactions of course. The entire alliance would break apart, not even Elayne would stick to Egwene after this.

 

That all depends on why she kills him. Though she probably won't actually kill him. I doubt it will be in anger, or anything stupid like that.

[OptimusPrime]

Hard to say where I stand on this.

 

I think Rand will swap bodies with Moridin. Whether or not that counts as a death depends on the outcome; IMO the ideal bodyswap will happen during a battle of wills with the Dark One, timed with a blow from Callandor so Rand jumps to Moridins body, and Moridin dies at the same time as the Callandor blow defeating the Dark One. Moridin bleeds Rands blood, signifying the Lights victory. So if they swapped, and Moridin died in his body fairly quick, that'd count as a sacrificial death of the body and would work its way into counting as a death.

 

The other death, if it happens, before or after would both make for cool scenarios. If it happens before the bodyswap its a good possibility for it to happen at the Black Tower, and then Nyn goes to T'A'R to pull him out. But unless that involved Demandred, and Perrin then saving dead Rand from Darkhounds, it wouldnt really fit.

 

But if it was after the swap... imagine if Rand died again in Moridins body and the two wait in T'A'R, would they regain their original appearance or would Moridin have Dragon tattoos? The two are bound, and Rand is a Hero, so theyre going to T'A'R together,and we know a dead Hero has his previous appearance... but is that previous ORIGINAL appearance (ie Rand looks like Rand) or would it be previous appearance at the time of death (ie Rand looks like Moridin?)

 

What if, in the prologue, we get that Dragon-Nae'blis philosophical talk and Rands all "Yea but I won, biatch" only for Nynaeve to step in, not knowing the two men appear as the opposite, and brings MORIDIN back via the Moggy method thinking its Rand? That momentary realization from both characters would be awesome. I think Moridin would actually smile. With Rands face.

[thisguy]

I think T'AR might be involved, too.

[pamela]

Wow, my vote gave the TAR option one point of advantage over the body-swap theory

I'm leaning toward this option, but it's not like I'm 100% sure - I don't want to be sure, I want Jordan to surprise me.