To Live You Must Die

[Suttree]

Anyone notice Rand had a dream in which Egwene plunged a knife into his heart and he thanked her? Great Hunt.

Can you quote that? If so it may be very important in AMoL

 

Fred

 

It wasn't a dream. It was when Rand was seeing the alternate worlds using the portal stones...

 

TGH

Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.

 

He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.

Flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker.

[Fred Cauthon]

Ah. Ok I remember now. Thanks Suttree. I think that maybe how he will die so he can live again. Goes back to all the worlds that might be. I think we're being offered up a possible answer as to how he will die.

 

Fred

[herid]

Anyone notice Rand had a dream in which Egwene plunged a knife into his heart and he thanked her? Great Hunt.

Can you quote that? If so it may be very important in AMoL

 

Fred

 

It wasn't a dream. It was when Rand was seeing the alternate worlds using the portal stones...

 

TGH

Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.

 

He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.

Flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker.

This quote and particularly the part you bolded are definitely important especially given that it's one of the possibliries that are very closely mirrored in Egwene's Accepted test. But I still don't know how to interpret its significant in terms of future developments. I'm sure Egwene won't be the one to kill Rand as she doesn't fit in any mythological parallels for that role.

 

Another interesting thing about that whole scene (I suspect this has been discussed in the past) is that IMO it provides evidence that Moiraine and Co were duped by Ishy and the DO into using the Eye of the World prematurely and for the wrong reasons. This resulted in the first seal being broken and let the DO work on the rest from inside the prison. In some of Rand's other lives this didn't happen which is presumably why he could live for many years without the LB occurring.

[Mik]

It wasn't a dream. It was when Rand was seeing the alternate worlds using the portal stones...

 

TGH

Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.

 

He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.

Flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker.

This quote and particularly the part you bolded are definitely important especially given that it's one of the possibliries that are very closely mirrored in Egwene's Accepted test. But I still don't know how to interpret its significant in terms of future developments.

Hey herid,

 

I think you said it all really, when you drew the parallel between Rand's different lives in the If-worlds and Egwene her Accepted Test 'for what is'. I think it's one of those lives where she did as he asked of her under similar circumstances. I think that's where the significance of that specific scene where Egwene kills Rand ends, too.

The significance was that we readers could draw a line between the If-worlds and the Accepted Test, because I think it's Sheriam who tells Egwene that 'some think the events are real, but she thought they were not'. We readers get a clue again that they are probably lives lived in the if-worlds at a similar point in time, but with different choices then that were taken in the real world.

 

What I never understood about Egwene's Accepted Test is why this Egwene, the Egwene of the real world actually kicked the dagger away from Rand. She didn't have to kill him but she could have helped him, even by just giving the dagger, instead of kicking it away. I always thought it a very wierd and very telling thing to do under the circumstances Rand was in.

What was also very telling about that scene, was that Rand didn't trust Lews Therin with the One Power, given the fact that we saw Rand defeated in Egwene's test. What Rand needed to understand -and what he finally did in VoG, I think- is trust Lews Therin. That's why their minds now are 'as one' (note; 'as one' =/= 'is one') :)

 

 

I'm sure Egwene won't be the one to kill Rand as she doesn't fit in any mythological parallels for that role.

I doubt we'll read something like that. But considering the way she acted when Rand asked her help, she actually did quite the opposite! I sincerely hope that's not a clue about her behaviour in AMoL, but it could be. Let's hope she grew enough mentally.

 

 

Another interesting thing about that whole scene (I suspect this has been discussed in the past) is that IMO it provides evidence that Moiraine and Co were duped by Ishy and the DO into using the Eye of the World prematurely and for the wrong reasons. This resulted in the first seal being broken and let the DO work on the rest from inside the prison. In some of Rand's other lives this didn't happen which is presumably why he could live for many years without the LB occurring.

Shai'tan had been working the Seals for thousands of years already, hence the reason why the Dragon was Reborn twenty years prior to events at the Eye. The Seals needed to break so the barrier between the Bore (the Dragon his Soul) and Lews Therin's Mind would weaken, I think. Both Shai'tan and the Dragon need the Seals to weaken and break, I think (I should probably call this a theory, eh Sut? *winks*). Ironically, both Shai'tan and the Dragon need to barrier removed.

 

I don't think the Eye was used at the wrong time; Rand needed the Dragon Banner to be able to 'proclaim himself bannered across the sky' as we see happening at the end of TGH. Rand could never have procclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn without that Banner of Prophesy. Just my take on events ofcourse. (Sidenote @Luckers: incidently, we also see that banner return in this section on the if-worlds. I missed that back in the day in the 'Shivan the hunter' discussion, where I was ridiculed for saying the Dragon Banner was needed in the sky..meh..ancient history, I guess)

 

What's also telling about that scene in the if-worlds (thanks Suttree!), is how very different all Rand's lives were!

This in relation to the remark on personalities:

"just each time he comes out personality and perspective wise a bit different due to each upbringing/circumstaces"

 

Kinda nice to see the point I was making about Birgitte in the previous post also directly counts for Rand, even in this very lifetime.

Good stuff.

Thanks for that quote, Sut & nice reading your posts herid. Always good stuff & if I recall correctly, one of the few Taim = Moridin supporters! (hear hear!)

 

Cheers,

Mik

[herid]

you may be right about Rand's vision in if-world and Egwene's Accepted test. I just was kind of hoping it contains some clues as to what will actually happen in AMOL.

 

About the Eye of the World. I haven't thought about it in more than a year year and as I recall I picked up many of these ideas somewhere else, so all of this has probably been discussed on the forums. The Eye was made as a tool to serve some specific goal but that goal was never made clear in the books. I don't see giving Rand the banner and the Horn as such a goal as it would not require huge amounts of saidin. They may as well have stored them under Callandor if that's all it was. As it transpired the Eye was basically used because Moiraine was afraid that the DO would destroy it. This doesn't qualify as the originally intended purpose of the Eye either. Also, Ishy taunted Rand that he baited him into using the Eye by sending the Aiel and Jain Farstrider with fake info that he was going to destroy the Eye. Ishy could have been lying of course but he was very precise with the knowledge of where their information about the threat to the Eye came from. Also, this was sort of confirmed by Noal in KOD.

Lastly, the seals. It's true that they have been weakening for many years but I believe the pace of that was greatly accelerated after the Eye was used. The first seal was shattered but otherwise it was normal cuendillar (Lan broke his knife on it). All the other seals were very brittle and could be easily damaged. I believe (this is again not my oroginal idea) that the destruction of the first seal was somehow the result of the use of the Eye and it allowed the DO to work on the rest of the seals and destroy them with TP (hence the evil feel of them before they were broken) much faster then they would have been otherwise. That's why I brought up Rand's visions in the if-worlds. In some of his lives he lived for many years before dying. How was it possible? The current world can't last much longer no matter what. Everything is falling apart because the seals are so weak and it's only been a couple of years since the start of tEoTW. Why didn't this happen in those alternate lives that Rand saw in the same time-frame?

[Darksmoon]

What if 'to live you must die' is as simple as he has to die to be reborn in the future?

[Rafalou]

This is one of the questions that makes me so impatient to read the book !

 

Until now, i was really hoping he would live, because he deserves it so much... All bad things that happened to him, all this pressure, knowing what you have to do and what is threatening you (madness, death, and all the people, even your ancient friends, being scared of you...). If he could have peace, at last, i would be so happy.

 

 

 

I agreed with the idea that Nynaeve would be part of his 'resurection" whatever it is ( TAR or healing his death). But this seems strange. I mean, healing death ? In so many stories, especially in fantasy books, we hear that death can't be cured, and that we must accept it. It is like a taboo, and no author that i know has ever broken this tabou.

 

 

 

"To live you must die"... I read this as a metaphor. He has to die so he can be reborn later when he is needed. And be in TAR.

 

I don't know the book well, i have just read it once so forgive my stupid questions : What make you think that he will die before shayol ghul ?

[Alonin]

First, the whole Rand/LTT debate. One soul, two personalities. I think LTT's personality was still somewhat attatched to the soul, just not active. The taint on Saidin then triggered the personality release of LTT, so now he had two personalities in one body. Plus (I don't remember where) Graendal thought about Rand's situation. A soul who was prophesied to be in a certain body. She had never heard of this before, and wondered what effects it could have on him.

 

Second, I think Rand should stay dead. After all, the poor guy deserves the rest. If he survives, I doubt he could bring himself stay out of world events and retire in peace. I mean, do you really think he could stand by and watch the world do who-knows-what without interfering?

Also, in a story like this where so many main characters are constantly in danger, some have to die. Even moraine, who "died" has come back. I think to finish it in a satisfying manner, Rand must make the ultimate sacrifice of his life and remain dead.

[TootThatHorn]

First, the whole Rand/LTT debate. One soul, two personalities. I think LTT's personality was still somewhat attatched to the soul, just not active. The taint on Saidin then triggered the personality release of LTT, so now he had two personalities in one body. Plus (I don't remember where) Graendal thought about Rand's situation. A soul who was prophesied to be in a certain body. She had never heard of this before, and wondered what effects it could have on him.

 

Second, I think Rand should stay dead. After all, the poor guy deserves the rest. If he survives, I doubt he could bring himself stay out of world events and retire in peace. I mean, do you really think he could stand by and watch the world do who-knows-what without interfering?

Also, in a story like this where so many main characters are constantly in danger, some have to die. Even moraine, who "died" has come back. I think to finish it in a satisfying manner, Rand must make the ultimate sacrifice of his life and remain dead.

 

I've said the same thing, Rand deserves to die and stay dead. He has had a hell of a last couple years, he's broken and battered, let him have his rest.

[Rafalou]

First, the whole Rand/LTT debate. One soul, two personalities. I think LTT's personality was still somewhat attatched to the soul, just not active. The taint on Saidin then triggered the personality release of LTT, so now he had two personalities in one body. Plus (I don't remember where) Graendal thought about Rand's situation. A soul who was prophesied to be in a certain body. She had never heard of this before, and wondered what effects it could have on him.

 

Second, I think Rand should stay dead. After all, the poor guy deserves the rest. If he survives, I doubt he could bring himself stay out of world events and retire in peace. I mean, do you really think he could stand by and watch the world do who-knows-what without interfering?

Also, in a story like this where so many main characters are constantly in danger, some have to die. Even moraine, who "died" has come back. I think to finish it in a satisfying manner, Rand must make the ultimate sacrifice of his life and remain dead.

 

I've said the same thing, Rand deserves to die and stay dead. He has had a hell of a last couple years, he's broken and battered, let him have his rest.

 

Hum; I Understand what you mean but this is somehow odd. We could think that a man who "has had a hell of a last couple of years" deserve precisely to live a good life after, rather than die...

 

I agree with the fact that he will probably die and that it is maybe the better way, but this is strange to say that he "deserve to die" as if it was a reward to die !

[Bastor]

Ripping a dead Rand out of the pattern after it is all over would mean he is no longer a hero. It might even brake the sodding wheel!

 

I mean unless Rand finds a way to prove himself AGAIN as a hero ...well he'll be lost forever. The wheel won't save him.

 

I'm not sure if anyone is getting any of this but when Birgitte got ripped out she not only lost her love and her "cycle" of reincarnation, love, death with that other legendary lad who's name I forgot, she is also not "saved" by the wheel. She needs to prove herself a hero worthy of being spun out again.

 

And if that is to happen to Rand? If his "save state" is ripped out and everything is brilliant and prospering after the Dark One has been defeated? Or if he just vanishes (like we saw in Avis future) ...If he vanishes he can prove himself even less....so yeah.....

 

Not to mention ripping the largest ta'veren ever seen from the Wheel might just brake it.

 

(Which would be awesome...I kindda agree with crazy old Moridin here - the wheel is as much an endless trap cycle as it is a creation of the light....I think it should be broken )

[TootThatHorn]

Ripping a dead Rand out of the pattern after it is all over would mean he is no longer a hero. It might even brake the sodding wheel!

 

I mean unless Rand finds a way to prove himself AGAIN as a hero ...well he'll be lost forever. The wheel won't save him.

 

I'm not sure if anyone is getting any of this but when Birgitte got ripped out she not only lost her love and her "cycle" of reincarnation, love, death with that other legendary lad who's name I forgot, she is also not "saved" by the wheel. She needs to prove herself a hero worthy of being spun out again.

 

And if that is to happen to Rand? If his "save state" is ripped out and everything is brilliant and prospering after the Dark One has been defeated? Or if he just vanishes (like we saw in Avis future) ...If he vanishes he can prove himself even less....so yeah.....

 

Not to mention ripping the largest ta'veren ever seen from the Wheel might just brake it.

 

(Which would be awesome...I kindda agree with crazy old Moridin here - the wheel is as much an endless trap cycle as it is a creation of the light....I think it should be broken )

 

I'm afraid I can't agree with any of this. Where have we seen the things about birgitte? Pretty sure she is still a hero.

[SonOfBattles20]

Ripping a dead Rand out of the pattern after it is all over would mean he is no longer a hero. It might even brake the sodding wheel!

 

I mean unless Rand finds a way to prove himself AGAIN as a hero ...well he'll be lost forever. The wheel won't save him.

 

I'm not sure if anyone is getting any of this but when Birgitte got ripped out she not only lost her love and her "cycle" of reincarnation, love, death with that other legendary lad who's name I forgot, she is also not "saved" by the wheel. She needs to prove herself a hero worthy of being spun out again.

 

And if that is to happen to Rand? If his "save state" is ripped out and everything is brilliant and prospering after the Dark One has been defeated? Or if he just vanishes (like we saw in Avis future) ...If he vanishes he can prove himself even less....so yeah.....

 

Not to mention ripping the largest ta'veren ever seen from the Wheel might just brake it.

 

(Which would be awesome...I kindda agree with crazy old Moridin here - the wheel is as much an endless trap cycle as it is a creation of the light....I think it should be broken )

 

I'm afraid I can't agree with any of this. Where have we seen the things about birgitte? Pretty sure she is still a hero.

 

I though that when Moggy ripped her from T'a'r it broke her ties to Gaidal and the Horn. That was how she would make Birgitte "weep for eternity."

 

I could be wrong though since its more speculation than surety lol

[herid]

Birgitte will definitely remain linked to Gaidal and will also remain a hero of the Horn. Min had a viewing about her future lives in WH, ch 12.

 

Back on the topic of the thread, I just finished my own theory on how Rand will die.

[Alonin]

I was initially of the opinion that ripping a Hero from TAR would break their connection to the wheel, but even I've had to concede that the person will still be tied to the wheel. Like with Brigitte. min had viewings about her living multiple lives with a man much older and younger than her. And Robert Jordan even said min's viewings are always about the future. So Brigitte is obviously tied to the wheel still, or will do something that will re-tie to it. So, I'm assuming that if Rand was ripped out of TAR, he would still be tied to the wheel, or he would do something during TG that would re-tie him to it.

 

Doesn't mean I like the theory about Rand being ripped out of TAR, though.

[WWWwombat]

I have a related observation:

 

From A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21: Swovan Night

 

He pushed the door shut trying to lean against it. He felt dizzy, dazed. “You are she. Birgitte, for true. Burn my bones to ash, it’s impossible. How? How?”

The woman of legend gave a resigned sigh and propped his bow back in the corner next to his spear. “I was ripped out untimely, Hornsounder, cast out by Moghedien to die and saved by Elayne’s bonding.” She spoke slowly, studying him as if to be sure he understood. “I feared you might remember who I used to be.”

 

 

From Shakespeare's Macbeth, Act V, Scene VIII

 

Macbeth: I bear a charmed life, which must not yield

To one of woman born.

Macduff: Despair thy charm;

And let the angel whom thou still hast served

Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother's womb

Untimely ripp'd.

Macbeth: Accursed be the tongue that tells me so,

For it hath cow'd my better part of man!

And be these juggling fiends no more believ'd,

That palter with us in a double sense;

That keep the word of promise to our ear,

And break it to our hope.

 

As you can see, the phrasing in these quotes is very similar. I noticed it the first time I read ACoS but never really thought much of it until I saw Terez's theory on Rand being ripped out. I thought maybe RJ had just liked the phrase or subconsciously used it or something. Now I think it might be there for a reason. The witches in Macbeth told Macbeth that he could not be killed by any man of woman born, thus convincing Macbeth he would not be killed. It is the "untimely" manner of Macduff's birth via caesarian section that provides a loophole in the witches' prophecy, allowing Macbeth to be killed. Perhaps Birgitte's echoing of Macduff's phrase is foreshadowing that in order to defeat the Dark One, Rand must also be "untimely ripped." It could also be that Birgitte has to kill someone important. Even if I'm totally off base here, I still find the phrasing interesting. Anyway, thought I'd point this possible parallel out because I haven't seen it anywhere else.

[gaz]

Wow some great theory's here, but I reckon you all thinking too deep! Rand gotta break the remaining seals and fix em quick (unless he can kill the dark one), no good him being dead for 3 days then resurrected, im going with the faking death theory. " the three become one" how about saidin, saidar an the true power being used against the dark one, But then again what do I know lol