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DRAGONMOUNT

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To Live You Must Die


Terez
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Q: "How can I...survive the Last Battle?" A: "To live, you must die."  

176 members have voted

  1. 1. How will Rand die and survive the Last Battle?

    • Nynaeve rips him out of Tel'aran'rhiod; his three women bond him again.
    • Nynaeve heals his death some other way.
    • Someone else rips him out of Tel'aran'rhiod.
      0
    • Rand dies and stays dead, maybe showing up when the Horn is blown.
    • Rand steals Moridin's body.
    • Rand never dies; he just fakes his death.
    • Something to do with balefire.
    • It's all a metaphor (e.g. Rand 'died' on Dragonmount, etc.).
    • Something to do with Bloodrings.
    • Other.


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Very brief accounting of the facts:

 

1. Four prophecies say Rand will die. (Many others say Rand will shed his blood on the rocks, but they are not the same prophecies.) One of them is a Min viewing, and as we learned with the Leya incident in TDR, when she says someone will die, they will die.

 

2. Rand is dead yet living on a boat with his three women in Nicola's Foretelling and also in a dream shared by Bair and Melaine. This presumably depicts his resurrection.

 

3. There are multiple foreshadowings of Nynaeve healing death, and even specifically Rand's death.

 

4. There are many, many more foreshadowings referring to the method by which Nynaeve will heal his death: ripping him out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

5. The Aelfinn said that to survive the Last Battle, Rand must die.

 

I could go into detail about this, but I'm working on rewriting my Blood on the Rocks page and therefore don't have anything great to link to and don't want to even attempt to write it out here. Maybe I will do another poll when I'm done.

 

Edited to add the best foreshadowing for the method of Rand's resurrection:

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

Marigan taught Nynaeve how to Heal death just a few chapters before. This scene is in Nynaeve's POV. Moghedien is there, Birgitte is there. Elayne, who figured out how to save Birgitte when she was ripped out, 'healing' something Nynaeve could not Heal. Nynaeve probably considers it her greatest failure, but Elayne had to figure it out, and she's also the one who figured out how to do the triple-bond for Rand. Presumably, she'll have to do it again when he's ripped out.

 

Nicola is also there—Nicola, who Foretold that 'he who is dead yet lives' will be on a boat with his three women while the world hangs in the balance, still divided by the Return. The three women who are, presumably, there to save him from death with the bond like Elayne saved Birgitte. In Arthurian legend, the women on the boat take Arthur to Avalon to be healed. We don't know where the boat will take Rand, but his women are needed to heal his death every bit as much as Nynaeve is needed.

 

Aside from all that, there are more layers to the above foreshadowing (which is only one foreshadowing of many). The name of the chapter, "To Boannda", is a reference to the Irish goddess Boann. She was a river goddess, of the River Boyne, and Boannda is on the River Boern. Semirhage's name was Nemene Damendar Boann—the third name was the one granted for great accomplishments in the Age of Legends, like Lews Therin Telamon, and Semirhage's accomplishments were in the realm of Healing. Boann is sometimes considered part of the triple goddess of Boann, Brighid, and Ceridwen. There is also a name parallel for Ceridwen way back in TGH, and already tied to Healing: Caredwain, yet another Healer—the one that the innkeeper of The Nine Rings offered to send for when Lanfear feigned illness.

 

Marigan is paralleled in The Morrígan, who is sometimes said to be the mother of Brighid through her short affair with the Dagda. In some stories, she seduced the Dagda by offering him a battle plan that could not be defeated. The Dagda was most notoriously a lover of Boann, though, and he is paralleled in WoT as Dagdara, the most talented Healer in Salidar, and introduced in the very next chapter.

 

Even Marigan's backstory casts her as a healer, a ridiculous claim to make considering that she has no ability for Healing at all. And yet, she taught Nynaeve how to Heal death, and all of the resonance in the above is enough to make it clear that Nynaeve will 'heal' death in the same way that Moghedien 'healed' Birgitte's death. But there is more. As recommended by Alan, read up on all those Irish mythological parallels on Wikipedia, and elsewhere, and see what you find.

Edited by Terez
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I'm with the body switch faction. Rand and Moridin exchanging bodies would fit a lot better than ripping Rand out of TAR.They already have a shared awareness of each other's bodies and there are two Viewings to support it. There was that Viewing Min had of Rand and someone else merging together. Rand immediately interpreted it as his struggle with LTT and that's the surest sign that the viewing means anything but that. And then there was that Viewing of Callandor in a dark fist. If Rand is carrying Callandor when the body switch happens Callandor would end up in Moridin's hands afterall.

 

No need to write a new answer to the same question.

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I must point out that Rand said 'How can I win the Last Battle and survive' (KOD18). We never knew his third question, but someone whose name escapes me (kudos to them) has pointed out that the Aelfinn may have interpreted this as two separate questions: 'how can I win the last battle' and 'how can I survive'. There's some support for this in that Rand emerged from the doorway with his saidin sword in hand as though defending himself from the 'finns - possibly because he tried to ask another question, possibly about how to seal the Bore; and also that he himself does not mention a third question when he tells Cads about that encounter (KOD18).

 

I think he 'died' metaphorically during VoG - but I also think he will die again, but this time permanently:

 

'Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.'

 

He's 'lived' twice, 'died' once.

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I must point out that Rand said 'How can I win the Last Battle and survive' (KOD18). We never knew his third question, but someone whose name escapes me (kudos to them) has pointed out that the Aelfinn may have interpreted this as two separate questions: 'how can I win the last battle' and 'how can I survive'

 

I asked Brandon about that; he said it only counted as one question.

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I hope it's one of the first four, preferably the first. The rest seem a little...uninspiring. Especially faking his death, that would be so lame. The first one would just be awesome, with all the prophecy and foreshadowing linked with it.

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I have a slightly different take on that answer from the finns... "The east and north must be as one. The west and south must be as one." answers how to win the LB, seanchan with one half, Rand with the other.... "The two must be as one. To live you must die." BOTH answer how he can survive. The two (rand and moridin) must become one (rand assumes control of moridins body). He lives in Moridins body, and rands body (now with moridins soul) is killed by alivia during or just after the swap. Something along those lines at least. That would be a neat twist i think, and would explain why all efforts at peace with the Seanchan were futile. The two being one never referred to them in the first place, so Rand was wasting his efforts by misunderstanding his answer.

Edited by Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon
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I must point out that Rand said 'How can I win the Last Battle and survive' (KOD18). We never knew his third question, but someone whose name escapes me (kudos to them) has pointed out that the Aelfinn may have interpreted this as two separate questions: 'how can I win the last battle' and 'how can I survive'

 

I asked Brandon about that; he said it only counted as one question.

 

Noted, thanks.

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I'm going with the Nynaeve ripping him out of TAR theory. For one thing it's foreshadowed that Nynaeve will heal death, and for another, Nynaeve saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte, and since she has a photographic memory when it comes to weaves (the only character who seems to have this), she knows how it was done. The "two must become one" could be referring to his link to Moridin in some way, but it could also be referring to him and Lews Therin re-integrating.

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I'm going with the Nynaeve ripping him out of TAR theory. For one thing it's foreshadowed that Nynaeve will heal death, and for another, Nynaeve saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte, and since she has a photographic memory when it comes to weaves (the only character who seems to have this), she knows how it was done. The "two must become one" could be referring to his link to Moridin in some way, but it could also be referring to him and Lews Therin re-integrating.

Oooohhh... You might be right about the two being one referring to ltt and rand.... Way to turn my own theory against me lol :)

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What was the Min viewing? Especially since you said the Leya thing, did she say specifically he will be dead or die? I can't recall.

 

What the bloody hell does a Boat have to do with anything!??!?! That's still driving me crazy.

 

It's pretty clear that if he used that phrasing, that he can survive (If he said how can I win the last battle and live, then you technically live in TAR so that would be different, surving implies on this plane of existence, at least in my mind).

 

That being said, I'd vote for other, some unknown way none of us have thought of yet.

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What was the Min viewing? Especially since you said the Leya thing, did she say specifically he will be dead or die? I can't recall.

 

What the bloody hell does a Boat have to do with anything!??!?! That's still driving me crazy.

 

It's pretty clear that if he used that phrasing, that he can survive (If he said how can I win the last battle and live, then you technically live in TAR so that would be different, surving implies on this plane of existence, at least in my mind).

 

That being said, I'd vote for other, some unknown way none of us have thought of yet.

 

I won't tackle the rest (mostly because I don't know) but there are a couple of reasons why a boat might be involved. Besides the previously mentioned Arthurian echoes, (or rather, in alignment with them) is the fact that Tar Valon (*cough* Avalon *cough*) is an island, so if there are any funerary services for Rand al'Thor there (which makes as much sense as anywhere, given Tar Valon's sort of pan-national status) they could well involve a boat. Darrell Sweet's sketch for the cover art of AMoL had three women standing around a raised bier with a wrapped body on it, and a very large single peak in the background - it seems more likely to be Dragonmount than Shayol Ghul, and Dragonmount is visible from the shores opposite Tar Valon (or from the island itself, for that matter).

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What was the Min viewing? Especially since you said the Leya thing, did she say specifically he will be dead or die? I can't recall.

 

What the bloody hell does a Boat have to do with anything!??!?! That's still driving me crazy.

 

It's pretty clear that if he used that phrasing, that he can survive (If he said how can I win the last battle and live, then you technically live in TAR so that would be different, surving implies on this plane of existence, at least in my mind).

 

That being said, I'd vote for other, some unknown way none of us have thought of yet.

 

I won't tackle the rest (mostly because I don't know) but there are a couple of reasons why a boat might be involved. Besides the previously mentioned Arthurian echoes, (or rather, in alignment with them) is the fact that Tar Valon (*cough* Avalon *cough*) is an island, so if there are any funerary services for Rand al'Thor there (which makes as much sense as anywhere, given Tar Valon's sort of pan-national status) they could well involve a boat. Darrell Sweet's sketch for the cover art of AMoL had three women standing around a raised bier with a wrapped body on it, and a very large single peak in the background - it seems more likely to be Dragonmount than Shayol Ghul, and Dragonmount is visible from the shores opposite Tar Valon (or from the island itself, for that matter).

 

But they have bridges!

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What was the Min viewing? Especially since you said the Leya thing, did she say specifically he will be dead or die? I can't recall.

 

What the bloody hell does a Boat have to do with anything!??!?! That's still driving me crazy.

 

It's pretty clear that if he used that phrasing, that he can survive (If he said how can I win the last battle and live, then you technically live in TAR so that would be different, surving implies on this plane of existence, at least in my mind).

 

That being said, I'd vote for other, some unknown way none of us have thought of yet.

 

I won't tackle the rest (mostly because I don't know) but there are a couple of reasons why a boat might be involved. Besides the previously mentioned Arthurian echoes, (or rather, in alignment with them) is the fact that Tar Valon (*cough* Avalon *cough*) is an island, so if there are any funerary services for Rand al'Thor there (which makes as much sense as anywhere, given Tar Valon's sort of pan-national status) they could well involve a boat. Darrell Sweet's sketch for the cover art of AMoL had three women standing around a raised bier with a wrapped body on it, and a very large single peak in the background - it seems more likely to be Dragonmount than Shayol Ghul, and Dragonmount is visible from the shores opposite Tar Valon (or from the island itself, for that matter).

 

But they have bridges!

 

I'm going to hope that was meant as a funny exclamation, but respond in case it wasn't. (My humor detector is off occasionally)

 

Yes, they have bridges, but funerals are often more ceremonial than practical, and boats can be part of the ceremony of it. If we're just talking about the most practical way to get from place to place, heck, they have gateways.

 

Again - funerals are ceremonial, and often include impractical features. We have mechanized transport tools, but pall-bearers are still a common feature in "western" funerals.

Edited by Neophyte
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What was the Min viewing? Especially since you said the Leya thing, did she say specifically he will be dead or die? I can't recall.

 

She said that Alivia will help him die. When Min says someone will die, that means they're going to die; there are no alternate interpretations, as we learned with Leya. And Alivia also rules out Dragonmount.

 

What the bloody hell does a Boat have to do with anything!??!?! That's still driving me crazy.

 

There are a few options, but expanding on the 'ceremonial' idea, I've suggested before that it might have something to do with Sea Folk customs. I've also suggested he might be resurrected in the Waterwood because of some symbolism stuff. Problem is, we don't have many clues to work with on that one; we just know it's blatantly Arthurian.

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I figured when I first read it that he was rezzed then went off to live the the Sea Folk as they are the only people who haven't ripped some part of him out.

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Again, Min's predictions of death are not metaphorical. When she says someone will die, they die, so any metaphorical death that might or might not have happened on Dragonmount is not a fulfillment of that viewing. So, we have a real death coming, and any metaphorical interpretation of Rand's death is therefore superfluous. It's very difficult to argue that Rand died in any way on Dragonmount, and there's no point, since he's going to die for real anyway. None of the prophecies require that he die twice, not even 'twice marked'. But of course, if he dies for real, he will presumably die again one day. It just probably won't be any time soon.

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Again, Min's predictions of death are not metaphorical. When she says someone will die, they die, so any metaphorical death that might or might not have happened on Dragonmount is not a fulfillment of that viewing. So, we have a real death coming, and any metaphorical interpretation of Rand's death is therefore superfluous. It's very difficult to argue that Rand died in any way on Dragonmount, and there's no point, since he's going to die for real anyway. None of the prophecies require that he die twice, not even 'twice marked'. But of course, if he dies for real, he will presumably die again one day. It just probably won't be any time soon.

 

That's another thing in favour of the body switch theory. If Moridin and Rand switch bodies Alivia by helping "Rand" die may end up killing Moridin.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r
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"To live, you must die"

 

Lews Therin told us he never did die 'the final death'. There are strong hints his mind didn't die when he destroyed himself.

I think it's most likely it has something to do with how Lews Therin & his Companions had just made the Seal on the Bore.

It's the trap 'he spun himself' (he mentioned it somewhere). I think Shai'tan is trapped inside the Soul of the Dragon.

That's why the Dragon is always there (by default) to confront Shai'tan when the Shadow can touch the Pattern.

 

The words about 'the Dragon bringing the Shadow' are partly right; the Dragon Soul spun into the Pattern is a key ingredient.

So, I think we have Lews Therin accidently trapping his own Mind when he overloads on the Power, due to the Seal on the Bore / the place where the Dragon Soul is spun into the Pattern.

Lews Therin his Mind cannot find the escape he seeks (and begs for when he creates Dragonmount but deep down knows he will not find)

 

The Soul of the Dragon was reborn on Dragonmount with a brandnew body and a brandnew mind; Rand's Mind.

 

Why did Prophesy state the Dragon had to be Reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount?

Because there -and only there- could the Mind of Lews Therin re-attach to it;'s former Soul.

 

We know the baby is the Dragon from the moment it is born due to Gitarra's Foretelling. A foretelling so strong it actually kills her.

We also know that there is only one person that is the Dragon; Lews Therin.

 

In essence, the Dragon Reborn is a man born with his own new Body and Soul, but with a mindtrapped Lews Therin tentively attached.

 

I think that to fullfill the "To live, you must die" prophesy, Lews Therin will finally make amends for his pride and will die the final death. Lews Therin will defeat Moridin/ Shai'tan in a battle of will-power and will envelop the Shadow with the light of a Dawn he wills in TAR @ the Bore. That's how he will literally 'embrace death' and will sacrifice himself -hoping for nothing but salvation & rebirth (the strongest oath). He will finally have his peace and die the final death.

Ishamaels fight was always with the Dragon and not with the Sheepherder. (I win again, Lews Therin!)

 

I think for Rand to live, the creature that is Fain will have an important role. I'm not really sure how, but it fits I think because how Ishamael was always after Lews Therin, Fain was going for Rand. (It's never over, Al'Thor!)

 

Anyway... For Rand to live, Lews Therin must die.

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Mr Jordan knew his myth and religion. Rand as a Christ figure has been stabbed in the side (twice). Christ was stabbed in the side by the spear of destiny. The man who stabbed him was cursed to live until Christ's return. I can't help but think this has something to do with Rand's resurrection.

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Just hit me - I don't know if this has been said here so, if it has, forgive me.

 

Christ was betrayed by Judas. Arthur, it can be argued, was betrayed by his own son. So, I'm guessing that somebody betrays Rand in a way that leads to his demise. As others have pointed out, there's some possible foreshadowing of Gawyn betraying someone and one of those quotes is:

 

""Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun."

 

LTT is the lord of morning.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by thisguy
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Just hit me - I don't know if this has been said here so, if it has, forgive me.

 

Christ was betrayed by Judas. Arthur, it can be argued, was betrayed by his own son. So, I'm guessing that somebody betrays Rand in a way that leads to his demise. As others have pointed out, there's some possible foreshadowing of Gawyn betraying someone and one of those quotes is:

 

""Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun."

 

LTT is the lord of morning.

 

Any thoughts?

The 'judas' could be 'jahar'... I have no evidence to support this except kinda similar names :p

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Just hit me - I don't know if this has been said here so, if it has, forgive me.

 

Christ was betrayed by Judas. Arthur, it can be argued, was betrayed by his own son. So, I'm guessing that somebody betrays Rand in a way that leads to his demise. As others have pointed out, there's some possible foreshadowing of Gawyn betraying someone and one of those quotes is:

 

""Betray? Gawyn Trakand, that word fits you as darkness fits the sun."

 

LTT is the lord of morning.

 

Any thoughts?

The 'judas' could be 'jahar'... I have no evidence to support this except kinda similar names :p

:D Hey, that's all the evidence we need. ;)

 

That quote could also be foreshadowing of the mind-body switch some people are speculating about. Rand's mind in Moridin's body - "darkness fits the sun". :D

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