To Live You Must Die

[Lisa Campbell]

Vards Rand fought Ba'alzamon in TAR I believe.

[Terez]

I think he needs to go back and look at what I said in the first place to understand what my point was. I never said Nynaeve was the first to use Need; my not saying that was very deliberate.

[pamela]

I also think it was just a flash, whether of his own lives or not necessarily his. But we have to RAFO, and it's so exciting.

 

But I was wondering... with LTT's memories, how can Rand not know what's the case with Callandor? Apparently this another flaw - or whatever it actually is - was something even its creators in the AoL weren't aware of. But how is it possible, that they made something of that much importance, not knowing about it? By accident?... Then, after the Sealing, there were some Foretellings, so the Aes Sedai put Callandor in the Stone - still not knowing, what for actually. If there's something I just don't remember, please remind me.

Did LTT even know about Callandor? I got the impression it was after his time. Those AS had his banner too which indicates to me that it was after his death. That being said, how else would Cadsuane know about the flaw if there weren't ancient writings left by those who lived then?

 

It was made during the War of Power, so Lews Therin probably knew about its flaws. There's nothing to say that he should have known about its ultimate purpose; that seems to have come out of Foretellings and dreams from the Breaking, not all of which were necessarily recorded in the KC.

 

Still unsatidfied.

 

He knew about the actual flaw, the manufacturing one - the lack of a buffer. After discovering it during the War of Power they stopped using Callandor. It seems to imply that it was made simply as a sa'angreal, only of a great power, with no additional purpose attached to it. Therefore, how did it become that vital? Where did this unknown other feature come from?

 

Well, maybe I'm exaggerating or reading too much into that. But then, it's a common thing on DM

[Lisa Campbell]

No I think you're on the right track Jen. IIRC as Charn's grandson's (? from Rhuidean columns) he thought along the lines of "what was that doing here!?" was after the Dragon had earned the name Kinslayer and the bore etc. was done and dusted.

[Vardar]

Vards Rand fought Ba'alzamon in TAR I believe.

 

Ok cool, but not sure what it has to do with TAR and the Eye of the World and Need.

 

I think he needs to go back and look at what I said in the first place to understand what my point was. I never said Nynaeve was the first to use Need; my not saying that was very deliberate.

You said:

 

 

The Dragon would first have to allow himself to get ripped out of TAR anyways. Birgitte was violating the rules set on the Heroes when she involved herself with living people. If the Dragon doesn't do the same no one can rip him out of TAR, because no one will be able to find him.

 

Guess who was the first character the Wise Ones taught to use Need in Tel'aran'rhiod? Hint...it wasn't Egwene.

 

 

The bolded was in response to the part above. I'm trying to figure outhow the Wise Ones teaching Ny about need, something Eggy already knew, helps prove your point. She knows about Need, but nothing says that means she will be able to find Rand if he's tossed back in TAR. We don't know if Need works on people who don't want to be found, or on TAR Hereos at all. We do know they can hide themselves, with amazing skill, skill enough to fool the forsaken, some of who have had much more experience in the TAR than anyone alive today. (Wolves can too apparently, yet TAR Hereos can hide themselves from wolves as well).

[sleepinghour]

I'm trying to figure outhow the Wise Ones teaching Ny about need, something Eggy already knew, helps prove your point. She knows about Need, but nothing says that means she will be able to find Rand if he's tossed back in TAR. We don't know if Need works on people who don't want to be found, or on TAR Hereos at all. We do know they can hide themselves, with amazing skill, skill enough to fool the forsaken, some of who have had much more experience in the TAR than anyone alive today. (Wolves can too apparently, yet TAR Hereos can hide themselves from wolves as well).

 

Maybe they don't have to use Need to find Rand. If Rand dies and goes to T'A'R, where would he go? Home to the Two Rivers; probably Tam's house. Either Nynaeve or Egwene could easily find him there.

[Terez]

I'm trying to figure outhow the Wise Ones teaching Ny about need, something Eggy already knew, helps prove your point.

 

1. She knows how to find Rand.

 

2. Thematic significance. RJ used Nynaeve rather than Egwene to formally introduce the skill (which required the Wise Ones' explanation of how it works).

 

3. Again, I never said she was the first to use Need, and your responses pretended as if I did. I meant exactly what I said. Reading Comprehension 101.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Vard, Terez, you guys should just agree to disagree and hug it out. Wash away your hate :p

[Terez]

What hate?

[Mik]

Sensing no life is different from remembering lives, love, peace, joy and hope, IMO.

Like I suggested earlier, the important part to focus on first I think is this: "He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand". It suggests that the Dragon through saidin saw all the threads in the pattern. And by seeing all the threads he could remember their lives; mistakes made, joy, love, etc. It was through holding saidin that the Dragon -not blinded for the first time while able to properly hold saidin- that he could sense ("see with his mind's eye") Threads. Living people are also threads in the pattern. If you look at it that way, I do think we can tie Lews Therin sensing no people for a hundred leagues while holding saidin to what happened on Dragonmount during Veins of Gold.

 

He also didn't sense life in the mirror world IIRC?

I think you are mistaking the fact that the If-world they were travelling through was but a pale reflection of the real world. Even Hurin felt that everything was paler around him, yet he could still follow the faint tracks made by Fain. (iirc). This has nothing to do with what I described above about what it entails to be the non blinded Dragon, and everything to do with how the if-worlds function.

 

Bear in mind this is only my opinion...

That's fine, Elci. Everyone has one and that's great. Wouldn't be much to discuss if we didn't. I hope you like my take on it. I can see where you come from, I just think works slightly different. Explaining why never hurt anyone.

 

....and I mentioned it here after TGS was released but everyone many people seem to focus on LTT's memories because that has been portrayed throughout the series.

*shrugs* How do "everyone many people" make heads or tails about seeing 'the whole world with his mind's eye' then? To me, that kind of puts a big hole in those memories being just all the past memories of the Dragon souls incarnation. I lean towards 'all memories of all living threads' because of that bit and because I think it fits way better with the Dragon actually being the Champion of Life. And not the Champion of 'all my past incarnations and now I saw a thousand times a thousand times how they all solved the puzzle of defeating the Dark One'.

 

Each turning, the Champion of Life makes his own Choices! (with a captical C yes, because of how often RJ tried to force that point home, like through chapter titles)

 

Zen Rand is more than himself + LTT.

Why? "Zen" Rand is the unblinded Dragon. Before, he was a man fighting a battle he never felt was truly his. Through his ephany on D'mount, by figuring out why he fights (through chatting with his dad and through advice from Lews Therin), he finally, really saw again. He is not more then Rand & LTT; he finally is what Rand + LTT were supposed to be throughout the books:

 

"‘Leafblighter means to blind the Eye of the World, Lost One."

 

The Dark One succeeded in blinding Rand, by constantly planting seeds of doubt, by calling him a puppet (instead of a man with choices), etcetera. From as soon as Ishamael finds the boys in their dreams all the way up until Veins of Gold, Shai'tan -through Ishamael's actions and words- blinds the Dragon Reborn more and more. Throughout all the books Rand was less then he could be, because of how he was manipulated and made to think. He didn't accept his fight as the Dragon fully. Untill Veins of Gold.

 

Yes he says somewhere (in TOM I off the top of my head) that he was raised better than LTT but he also says in Apples (CH 1 - TOM) about not being able to look too closely without being blinded/burned blah blah (I'll dig out the quote if you want). He never had that with his knowledge of LTT's memories before VOG.

Could you rephrase your point? I don't see the point you're trying to make. Sorry. :o

 

I guess if I had left out the first part of the quote some people might still ignore my inference, but generally, that is not a tactic I use. Any quote from the series can be argued from differing interpretations. I am simply offering mine, which differs from yours.

Ditto! =D

 

 

"And at its center, the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again"

 

See? You don't become more when you were blinded and get to see again; you were less then you could be. :)

Shed your blindfold, Elci. I hope I managed to plant a tiny seed of doubt.

Cheers,

Mik

[pamela]

"Methinks, I see... Where? - In my mind's eye." A motto of Polish Romanticism.

 

Edit: I just relised that in our greatest romantic literature there is even a hero standing on the top of the world, having his enlightenment moment - instead commiting suicide because of the world's hopelessness, he decides to free it from evil, to fight for love, sacrificing himself. It would be nice to think that Jordan was inspired by something that even Polish themselves don't want to read, but at school they are forced to (our romantic literature was completely devoted to the national struggles for independence, unfortunately. It's glorious, but hardly readable).

[Mik]

"Methinks, I see... Where? - In my mind's eye." A motto of Polish Romanticism.

 

Edit: I just relised that in our greatest romantic literature there is even a hero standing on the top of the world, having his enlightenment moment - instead commiting suicide because of the world's hopelessness, he decides to free it from evil, to fight for love, sacrificing himself. It would be nice to think that Jordan was inspired by something that even Polish themselves don't want to read, but at school they are forced to (our romantic literature was completely devoted to the national struggles for independence, unfortunately. It's glorious, but hardly readable).

That comes closer to what I envision as the Last Battle then anything I've ever read on-line, I think.

Let me find the thread!

 

Edit:

Bingo! Enjoy! (or not... your call )

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/60798-day-that-dawns-twice/?do=findComment&comment=1864846

[FarShainMael]

"Methinks, I see... Where? - In my mind's eye." A motto of Polish Romanticism.

 

Edit: I just relised that in our greatest romantic literature there is even a hero standing on the top of the world, having his enlightenment moment - instead commiting suicide because of the world's hopelessness, he decides to free it from evil, to fight for love, sacrificing himself. It would be nice to think that Jordan was inspired by something that even Polish themselves don't want to read, but at school they are forced to (our romantic literature was completely devoted to the national struggles for independence, unfortunately. It's glorious, but hardly readable).

 

I don't think many people like having to read all those strange books at school and analyse them.. but it's strange how later on, we look back at 'Macbeth' or 'Far from the madding crowd' and think: hey, that was a good story..

 

..any English version of that book of yours around?

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

What hate?

Ok maybe 'hate' is to strong a word. Seemed like you two were getting mad at each other, didnt seem like either side was gonna budge, so i suggested to agree to disagree. Certainly didnt mean anything negative by it.

[Terez]

"Methinks, I see... Where? - In my mind's eye." A motto of Polish Romanticism.

 

Edit: I just relised that in our greatest romantic literature there is even a hero standing on the top of the world, having his enlightenment moment - instead commiting suicide because of the world's hopelessness, he decides to free it from evil, to fight for love, sacrificing himself. It would be nice to think that Jordan was inspired by something that even Polish themselves don't want to read, but at school they are forced to (our romantic literature was completely devoted to the national struggles for independence, unfortunately. It's glorious, but hardly readable).

 

What story is this? I'm familiar with some Polish Romantic poetry thanks to Chopin being buds with Mickiewicz, but that's about it.

[pamela]

I don't think many people like having to read all those strange books at school and analyse them.. but it's strange how later on, we look back at 'Macbeth' or 'Far from the madding crowd' and think: hey, that was a good story..

 

..any English version of that book of yours around?

 

What story is this? I'm familiar with some Polish Romantic poetry thanks to Chopin being buds with Mickiewicz, but that's about it.

 

It's "Kordian" by Juliusz Slowacki - Mickiewicz's contemrporary rival for the title of national prophet... in the end, they both gained this title.

You'd better not try to read it girls, although I found it in English - I didn't suspect it would be translated!

http://www.scribd.co...erard-T-Kapolka

 

But I must correct - Kordian didn't actually intend to commit suicide on Mount Blanc, he had an attemp at the beginnig - and he failed, noob... Then he got to know the world, realised it's spoiled, on the top of the mountain - from where he thought he saw the whole world - discovered his destiny and decided to make a sacrifice for the liberation of Poland - and therefore the world itself, as suffering Poland was considered the Messiah of nations by both Mickiewicz and Slowacki (yeah, I know it seems strange). He made an attept to kill the Russian tsar, but got caught and executed.

 

Edit: See Terez, I'm getting better with the quotes

[Terez]

Ahh, Slowacki and Chopin did not like each other much. But Slowacki did tell a cute story about Chopin getting drunk in a letter to his mother. Apparently he did not get drunk often...

[pamela]

Let me find the thread!

 

Edit:

Bingo! Enjoy! (or not... your call )

http://www.dragonmou...e/#entry1864846

 

Man, I feel Iike I just read aMoL spoiler! At least about the twice-dawning day part

 

About Callandor - how could they (i.e. the Aes Sedai) reach the Dragon's mind actually?... I've been pondering Callandor myself recently.

[pamela]

Ahh, Slowacki and Chopin did not like each other much. But Slowacki did tell a cute story about Chopin getting drunk in a letter to his mother. Apparently he did not get drunk often...

 

Oh, I didn't know that Slowacki and Chopin didn't like each other neither (like Slowacki and Mickiewicz). All those big, talented minds...

[Terez]

Eh, there was a lot of angst in Poland during those years. :p I'm not sure Chopin and Mickiewicz liked each other very much either, but they did at least work together and maintain a more or less cordial relationship.

[thisguy]

I think Rand gets pulled into T-L-Rond by the DO.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks Gwen, I'll have a look.. and prob get a migraine

 

I think Rand gets pulled into T-L-Rond by the DO.

 

That raises an interesting point. Can the DO touch T'A'R at all? We're told that the Blight cannot be reached through T'A'R, but SG itself is less certain:

 

http://www.theorylan...main.php?i=75#2

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=605#25

[Vardar]

Thanks Gwen, I'll have a look.. and prob get a migraine

 

I think Rand gets pulled into T-L-Rond by the DO.

 

That raises an interesting point. Can the DO touch T'A'R at all? We're told that the Blight cannot be reached through T'A'R, but SG itself is less certain:

 

http://www.theorylan...main.php?i=75#2

 

http://www.theorylan...in.php?i=605#25

 

Where did you get the Blight info?

 

Does that mean theres less of TAR when the blight pushes further out? Interesting...

[FarShainMael]

Follow the links I provided.

 

As to there being less of T'A'R.. It contains reflections of the real world, and includes the parallel Portal Stone worlds (TDR21). It seems to at least overlap the Wolf Dream (TDR9). If the Blight is removed from the real world as RJ said (not part of the normal universe) then the reflection of the Blighted lands would vanish from T'A'R, I suppose.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The DO is as real in TAR as he is in the real world or in all the worlds of the Portal Stones.