Rand needs Androl to succeed

[Lisa Campbell]

OK so, I don't want to revive the old thread where I found this theory after it was mentioned in others, because there was a semantics war going on so a quick reminder of the basic gist:

 

That the hole in the Dark One's prison is kind of like a specialised gateway, which I find quite plausible, especially when combined with Herid Fel's "clear away the rubble". I'm not saying the Seals don't constitute the rubble, but perhaps they are not all of it.

 

Then I found Terez's reply in another topic and it got me thinking:

 

...

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

 

My question is, with the revelation of Androl's Talent with Gateways, do you think Rand needs him/his knowledge to work out how to seal the Bore? Or would the Dreamspike itself be useful in the sealing?

 

Just interested in what people think...

[Vardar]

I personally think his talents and abilities will have nothing to do with the story arc except the discovery of the dreamspike. I don't agree with it, I just have a sinking feeling that nothing will come of him and his awesome powers.

[Elgee]

Like the awesome BA hunters who's story arc came crashing down? I hope not :(

[Lisa Campbell]

What do you think of the old post I outlined? It never really got answered on the old thread because of the tangential debate that ensued.

[Kamin_Majere]

I honestly think he was introduced simply to deal with the Black Tower issues. It gives the readers some face time int he tower so it doesnt just seem like Logain is going to walk in there and blow up Taim for no good reason. It gives us insight to the workigns of the place and a focal point to use when the action starts.

 

I dont think he will have much to do with the sealing of the bore, but it will be spectacularly awesome when him and a few linked Aes Sedai make the largest gateway ever and the whole of the black tower comes rushing into the last battle and completely and totally breaking the horde of trollocs that will be about to overwhelm the forces of the light. (i dont see how it will be set up any other way)

[Lisa Campbell]

I'm kinda hoping for a bit more than a colossal gateway, Birgitte already made the Windfinders do a big one to save Elayne when she was captured by the BA in Caemlyn too.

 

But it's really the idea of the Bore being some kind of gateway that I find interesting. There was some explanation about Saidar weaves for a male style gateway resulting in the woman being sucked out of the Pattern etc. and of Rand's description of weaving a gateway as folding the Pattern and "boring" a hole through both sides.

[Treebeard]

civil war in the black tower ? Androl the inside leader besides the missing Logian who ( at least according to my theory ) are gathering and own army of male channellers ( they who Taim left behind) to rend the black tower in fire and blood. I dont think he will come to much other use , or as someone said he is character to show that all is not well in there. But he is also there to show that the tower is divided between the two leader and that Taims people is evil

[Lisa Campbell]

We already knew that though (ie. the division). This just provides the solid evidence. And let's us know about the 13x13'ing too I admit, which I think is far more important because we already knew about the Dreamspike too.

 

I just think that a new Talent needs to be exploited and that we need to see it. And really, every Talent is an advantage, especially seeing as the Forsaken generally underestimate the Randlanders.

 

I wonder if Androl can give Aviendah some tips if they happen to meet.

[Vardar]

We already knew that though (ie. the division). This just provides the solid evidence. And let's us know about the 13x13'ing too I admit, which I think is far more important because we already knew about the Dreamspike too.

 

I just think that a new Talent needs to be exploited and that we need to see it. And really, every Talent is an advantage, especially seeing as the Forsaken generally underestimate the Randlanders.

 

I wonder if Androl can give Aviendah some tips if they happen to meet.

 

 

Oh I agree that it needs to be, but it won't be. Just like I doubt the Aviendah thing will be explained, after making a fuss about it. It'll all fall to the wayside and we'll be left wondering.

[Treebeard]

Do you think that any writer with a little self-esteem would drop the "Aviendah vs Pillars" theme it would be madness , but it could fall as flat as the whole ToG theme with a huge boost and then when the action is it will be over in about two lines and nothing more said.

[Vardar]

Do you think that any writer with a little self-esteem would drop the "Aviendah vs Pillars" theme it would be madness , but it could fall as flat as the whole ToG theme with a huge boost and then when the action is it will be over in about two lines and nothing more said.

 

I meant the Avi/Gateway thing. Not the Avi pillar thing.

[Treebeard]

ahhh okej sorry

[Shig]

On the aviendah gateway conundrum, are we all thinking of how she has trouble making them(and has to use the entirety of her connection to saidar, or close to it) to just make a smallish one?

 

I always thought that was easily explained, my reasoning is that she developed something of a block(a block like nynv and the ashaman who could not channel at 50+ paces) due to the feelings she was experiencing when she made her first gateway(shame, guilt, probably anger at rand and herself etc etc). Now that she feels rand and herself are equals, and that she is now worthy of rand( plus probably more crazy justification that shes got going on) maybe she wont have a problem any longer...is this what you guys were talking about or have i wandered of in a tangent?

[Vardar]

On the aviendah gateway conundrum, are we all thinking of how she has trouble making them(and has to use the entirety of her connection to saidar, or close to it) to just make a smallish one?

 

I always thought that was easily explained, my reasoning is that she developed something of a block(a block like nynv and the ashaman who could not channel at 50+ paces) due to the feelings she was experiencing when she made her first gateway(shame, guilt, probably anger at rand and herself etc etc). Now that she feels rand and herself are equals, and that she is now worthy of rand( plus probably more crazy justification that shes got going on) maybe she wont have a problem any longer...is this what you guys were talking about or have i wandered of in a tangent?

 

The basic theory behind it is once you learn a weave one way, any other way you do it will be less powerful, unless the weaves are vastly different enough. Thus we can conclude that Avi's initial gateway was similiar, but not the same as the way Eggy rediscovered/the Forsaken use. So it leads us to the question of: Why was Avi's weave different, I mean Mogi tells us Men do way A, and Women do Way b (Drilling hole through the pattern vs making two places similiar). So that means her weave was special in some way, it's a huge thing to leave undiscussed or unused in the last book. It had to happen for a reason. What is it?!?!

[TristanWebb]

It doesn't have to be special. Around the same time we learn about Avi's travelling problem we learn that there are sisters who can tell who taught someone based on hand motions. It is just a different way of weaving something for the same result.

[Siswai_Dar]

On the aviendah gateway conundrum, are we all thinking of how she has trouble making them(and has to use the entirety of her connection to saidar, or close to it) to just make a smallish one?

 

I always thought that was easily explained, my reasoning is that she developed something of a block(a block like nynv and the ashaman who could not channel at 50+ paces) due to the feelings she was experiencing when she made her first gateway(shame, guilt, probably anger at rand and herself etc etc). Now that she feels rand and herself are equals, and that she is now worthy of rand( plus probably more crazy justification that shes got going on) maybe she wont have a problem any longer...is this what you guys were talking about or have i wandered of in a tangent?

 

The basic theory behind it is once you learn a weave one way, any other way you do it will be less powerful, unless the weaves are vastly different enough. Thus we can conclude that Avi's initial gateway was similiar, but not the same as the way Eggy rediscovered/the Forsaken use. So it leads us to the question of: Why was Avi's weave different, I mean Mogi tells us Men do way A, and Women do Way b (Drilling hole through the pattern vs making two places similiar). So that means her weave was special in some way, it's a huge thing to leave undiscussed or unused in the last book. It had to happen for a reason. What is it?!?!

 

Interesting point... I've never considered the possibility that Avi had a different weave for gateways especially since she practices them with Elayne and she never mentioned there was something odd about Avi's gateways but if you're right it could explain a few things like why it was so easy for her to unravel the weave- even if she had a Talent - while Elayne really struggled with it and messed it up causing the seanchan to believe the AS had some special secret weapon (that part always made me laugh XD)

but I think shig's theory makes more sense since Elayne never said anything about Avi's weave.

could be that avi's talent will have to do with rand's body- like the girls taking him somewhere and don't want anyone to follow them so Avi will unravel the gateway? idk...

[snooze1128]

I'm kinda hoping for a bit more than a colossal gateway

 

I totally agree. I'd be very disappointed if gateway explosions didn't make an appearance in aMoL. But at the same time, I don't want the last battle to turn into a massive scene of gateways and rockets going off everywhere...

[Vardar]

It doesn't have to be special. Around the same time we learn about Avi's travelling problem we learn that there are sisters who can tell who taught someone based on hand motions. It is just a different way of weaving something for the same result.

 

If it wasn't special, why would they mention it. As readers, we assumed for the longest that Avi rediscovered Travelling but forgot it. If they had left it as is, we would never had had to wonder why Avi's original weave was different. So that means he added it on purpose, but for what reason.

[TristanWebb]

Building the world? Giving Elayne a reason to explode the farm? I agree that it was lampshaded in a way that means it might come back, but having it be a fundamentally different way of travelling isn't the only result of it coming up again. Avi could be in a situation where she is holding off 50 trollocs and needs to escape but she can't because opening a gateway with the second weave takes all her strength when she remembers how to do it the first way and flees.

 

I mean, why is it important to know that most AS can't make fireballs without a throwing motion? A situation hasn't come up where it is important, but it is the same principle as Avi's problem with traveling, perhaps Avi's problem was just there to highlight that they can't learn how to not make the motion and that will be important somewhere.

[Vardar]

Building the world? Giving Elayne a reason to explode the farm? I agree that it was lampshaded in a way that means it might come back, but having it be a fundamentally different way of travelling isn't the only result of it coming up again. Avi could be in a situation where she is holding off 50 trollocs and needs to escape but she can't because opening a gateway with the second weave takes all her strength when she remembers how to do it the first way and flees.

 

I mean, why is it important to know that most AS can't make fireballs without a throwing motion? A situation hasn't come up where it is important, but it is the same principle as Avi's problem with traveling, perhaps Avi's problem was just there to highlight that they can't learn how to not make the motion and that will be important somewhere.

 

Well the fireball issue was used to explain about Ny's healing weaves and why they still work for others right?

 

I agree with the first part, that could be true, but she mentioned it quite a bit didn't she. And even just having Avi be tired would have given her a reason. You're probably right, and it'll end up being nothing, but it's the same thing I said about Androl and his portals. It'll amount to nothing and people will be dissapointed.

[Orderofolde]

I thought that Avi had trouble after her first gateway because she blocked herself after what happened in Seanchan with Rand.

[Maleshub]

Aviendha made the weave in panic. She forgot how she opened the gateway in the first place. And she's been trying to remember. She might just do that in AMoL when the "need" is great. And she believes that her "Far Snows" weave is much better than the one Egwene discovered and is being used by AS now.

 

If Aviendha remembers her weave, I wonder how the gateway will be better than Egwene's. Is it just the size of the gateway? Or will it be that the weaver doesn't have to know the "starting" place as good as they have to with the other weave? If Aviendha is forced to make a gateway from a place where she hasn't had time to learn the place ......

[Luckers]

And she believes that her "Far Snows" weave is much better than the one Egwene discovered and is being used by AS now.

 

If Aviendha remembers her weave, I wonder how the gateway will be better than Egwene's. Is it just the size of the gateway? Or will it be that the weaver doesn't have to know the "starting" place as good as they have to with the other weave? If Aviendha is forced to make a gateway from a place where she hasn't had time to learn the place ......

 

Actually, it probably won't be better at all. Aviendha's problems stem from the second learned weave effect--basically, if you learn one way of producing a weave, and then try to use a slightly different way, it will never work as well as the first way you learnt.

 

With the second learned weave effect, the result of either way usually has no difference in actual effect (when woven by a person who learnt them first, respectively). If the effect is innately different or stronger, it doesn't cause the second learned weave effect--such as with Nynaeve's version of Healing.

 

The fact that using Egwene's DOES cause the second learned weave effect therefore suggests that Aviendha's will be little different, and certainly nothing suggests Aviendha's would be better except the mistaken impression created by Aviendha's struggles with Egwene's version.

[Sharaman]

I have an issue of disbelief about Androll's Talent given what we know.

Sure he has some incredible gift when it comes to Gates and he is going to Link with Pevara if the ToM storyline come through as expected.

But linking was no big deal in the AoL - they did it all the time and in large circles.

If a Dreamspike could be beaten/ broken by linking Saidar-Siadin channelers in any number, whether in real space or in TAR, it would have been discovered in the AoL given the plethora of channelers and obvious nature of the approach.

I'll be unhappy if Brandon just fudges together a bypass of the Spike by linking.

 

 

.

[TristanWebb]

I don't think it is a problem really. Pretty much everything can be bypassed by throwing enough OP at it. Making some place secure unless 100 channelers act in unison is good enough IMO, Androl just cuts down on the amount needed.