So yes....

[Euron Crows Eye.]

My first post post, any theorys on whose posing as Samael? I don't so I'm intrested in seeing what other people think.

[Mercer]

...

 

...if you are in this forum, I'm assuming you have read all the books. And if you have, then you know who Sammael is. Was.

 

If you haven't read through the books, go read them. Or post this in the other forum and hope only people who haven't read farther than you answer.

[Euron Crows Eye.]

Yes, I've read the books, I'm talking about the chapter 'In the Gardens.' Where Moridin tells them, "It appears Sammael resurfaced. Or someone using him as a disguise."

 

We know that Sammael is dead,so my question is who is posing as him?

[Kadere]

I still don't buy that Sammael can't be reborn, so I think he's back. But the biggest guesses are either Padan Fain or Mazrim Taim.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It can't be Padan Fain. Moridin specifically says it has to be one of the Chosen because of how the Myrdraal obeyed. Padan Fain can torture a few Myrdraal and keep them docile, but hundreds of Myrdraal and a hundred thousand Trollocs are a bit beyond him. I personally believe it is Taim, and if that is true, it is evidence that he has been made Chosen. Otherwise, Demandred is the main suspect, and its a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

[Barnabas]

i agree kadere, dont think we should rule out sammael being reborn, on that note however, it doesnt seem likely that he would look like himself anymore, i mean balthamel isnt even a guy these days. should be interesting to see what clues rj gives in the next book, half the fun:D

[algspkr]

First: RJ said that Sammeal was toast, I do not believe he is coming back.

 

Second: Why are the women all ruled out as culprates in the attack on Rand?

[Aemon raHal]

Ok, whoever sent the Trollocs knew where Rand was - obviously.

 

Taim doesn't know where Rand is.

He was desperate to find out according to Logain.

This also means that he can't find Rand the way some of the Forsaken can.

 

Some of the Forsaken can track Taveren by their effect on the pattern. Ishamel and Lanfear for example.

 

So it was obviously somebody with their ability.

 

 

As for Sammael - if he was remade, it does't matter what he looks like now. With a mask of mirrors he can look like his old self.

 

That being said, I don't believe it was Sammael.

 

I think it was Demandred - for no particular reason, I just think he wants Rand dead and doesnt want to face him himself.

Also it could have been done to put Rand off balance before meeting Semirage.

 

Demandred and herself do have an alliance as far as I know.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Second: Why are the women all ruled out as culprates in the attack on Rand?

 

I rule the women out for the following reasons:

 

Cyndane and Moghedien: Mindtrapped as they are, I don't see either risking crossing Moridin. Cyndane might have the guts, but she wants to watch Lews Therin die.

 

Semirhage: She's busy elsewhere, and had another plan in the works anyway (a point against Demandred too, since he was clearly aware of her plan).

 

Mesaana: She's in cahoots with Semi and Demandred, busy in the Tower, and unlikely to step out of line anytime soon, given her .... experience ... with Shaidar Haran.

 

Halima/Aran'gar: Her POV says she didn't.

 

Graendal: She could have, I suppose, and has some reason given the troops al'Thor is sending to Arad Doman, but it just doesn't seem like her style to me. However, given that I think she killed Asmodean, if she did pull off this one too, she gets major bonus points in my book.

 

The other thing is, whoever did it has to have a way to locate Rand. Since as far as we know only Ishy and Lanfear (Moridin and Cyndane) can do that via the ta'veren effect (and then only with time and a little luck) it comes down to more normal means. It seems to me that Mazrim Taim is the most likely to be able to find him despite Rand's and Logain's precautions.

[Chapmann]

It could be Mordin himself playing the other Forsaken. I actually think the attack was a kind of test on his part to test the might of the Dragon Reborn. Moridin would obviously have Ishamael's ability to locate ta'veren.

[Luckers]

Ok, whoever sent the Trollocs knew where Rand was - obviously.

 

Taim doesn't know where Rand is.

He was desperate to find out according to Logain.

This also means that he can't find Rand the way some of the Forsaken can.

 

That only proves that several days before the attack on Rand Taim was desperately trying to learn his location. We only know that Logain didn't give it to him, not one of the others. And Concider that Logain was marshelling the Asha'men to leave the Tower, that took time (even he admits it was problematic). He couldn't have kept his eye on all his men for that entire time, and if Taim is in anyway smart (which ill admit is arguable) he'd have someone amongst Logain's men.

 

Even if he doesn't, we see the Aes Sedai directly decide to start playing on the contentions between Taim and Logain. Since Logain obviously didn't want Taim to know were Rand is, this represents an obvious choice of where to begin trying to excalate the confliction. No, if Taim was as desperate to find Rand's location, he could have with relative ease. And the timing matches up with the length of time Taim would have needed to get the Trollocs through the Ways.

 

In addition to that it matches Taim's MO. He is not one for subtle planning... In both the attack on Demira and the atack on Rand in PoD he displays the exact same methodology... a blunt, brute force attack with him in no way connected. That the one on Demira was directed at seperating Rand and the Aes Sedai is non-withstanding, it was still blunt and obvious... something Aes Sedai, the so called inventors of the Great Game should have realised.

 

Meanwhile it does NOT match the surviving Forsaken. Concider that they knew he had the Choedan Kal and Callandor with him, as well as many channelers, and have seen better then anyone else the ways the power can be used in war... they had no reason to suspect the plan would work. And no, to those that suggest they were testing Rands power... id say after the Cleansing they have a pretty good idea of that too.

 

Besides, those that survive are all masters of subtlety--Demandred comes the closest, but even for him its a rash and out of place plan.

[Mat is the Boss]

All the surviving forsaken could probably have located Rand with a little patience, Graendal only states that it`s not easy, and harder now then ever before. But that still means she have done so in the past, and probably could in the future, if she bothered to try a few times.

[Chapmann]

Luckers:

 

I don't think Taim has the authority to send an attack force with Trollocs and Myrdraal from all the 12 primary bands. I don't think he has the authority to send Trollocs at all. Yes, he could have posed as Sammael and done it, but he would still need to know the process on how to do it. It can't be as easy as just walking into the Blight and say: "Hey, you there! Trolloc! I need about 10 000 of you and a couple of Myrdraal. Thanks!".

 

And you can't really use the Demira incident as proof. We can't be certain who assaulted her. I've always thought it was Fain's whitecloaks who attacked her. I've never heard an Asha'man call Aes Sedai witches.

[Wise One]

I have always kind of hoped it was Sammael reborn, and that Jordan just meant the old Sammael is definitely dead. But just reading the Demandred theories, I prefer them I think. We haven't seen a lot of him, but he was probably involved in the Embassey plot, and the other Forsaken suspect many other intricate plots, plus he is supposed to have some connection to the Asha'man. Demandred seems to be the bravest of the remaining forsaken, the only one who could concievably challenge Moridin directly. Plus, the assailant is most likely also the one who orders Slayer to kill Rand, which fits with Demandred's objectives at the time (he ordered the fearsom four to do it to). Why hide? Because even Demandred isn't a match for Moridin with restricted access to TP.

[Thor]

It could be Mordin himself playing the other Forsaken. I actually think the attack was a kind of test on his part to test the might of the Dragon Reborn. Moridin would obviously have Ishamael's ability to locate ta'veren.

 

I agree, that guy is insane. Send a few thousands troops to their death to test the might of the Dragon? Oh no problem. :lol:

[rd2000]

I highly doubt Moridin was responsible for the attack. In the meeting with the other forsaken, Moridin was the one who informed the others about all the trollocs entering the ways. He then told them they weren't to make such a move without his approval first. He obviously disapproved of the action enough to warn the others about doing anything similar.

Moridin has been trying to get the forsaken to work together. Their plotting about and against each other is very counter-productive to the DO so close to the time of the final battle. Moridin at least knows this.

[Luckers]

I agree. The attack does not match Moridin's MO, and given the link between him and Rand as well as the re-issuing of the no-kill order there is ample evidence suggesting that he does not want Rand dead, which was a possible result of the assault.

 

Additionally why would he need to test Rand... im sorry... but this strikes me as pointless... he has ample evidence of what Rand is capable of, and this assault merely drew attention to the immenence of Tarmon Gai'don. If you are marshelling an invasion force you dont send a small force in ahead merely to see if your enemy is capable of fighting back. Maybe you would if you wanted to remove the enemies leader, but if he was trully behind this attack, and wanted it to succeed, he would have seen to it channelers were in it.

 

From Taim though, it does match. He sends in blunt forces on the off chance it achieves his ends... but had he sent any of the channelers in his power then Moridin would have known instantly who commanded the assault. Since the assault was obviously against the shadows wishes, Taim couldn't risk that backlash.

 

 

 

I don't think Taim has the authority to send an attack force with Trollocs and Myrdraal from all the 12 primary bands. I don't think he has the authority to send Trollocs at all. Yes, he could have posed as Sammael and done it, but he would still need to know the process on how to do it. It can't be as easy as just walking into the Blight and say: "Hey, you there! Trolloc! I need about 10 000 of you and a couple of Myrdraal. Thanks!".

 

It has nothing to do with authority. The Trollocs have to obey anyone with the Chosen Mark. The question is simply wether or not Taim had the Mark. If he did then yes, it would be as simple as simply walking into the blight and commanding them into the ways.

 

By the way, it was 100,000 Trollocs, not 10,000

[cloglord]

I am leaning towards Graendal at this point. SHe has been touted through the whole series as being the sneakiest of all the forsaken, yet we have yet to see her manipulate a simgle forsaken, in fact it seemed for a while that she was being manipulated by one of the bluntest and most straightforward.

 

A few points in her favor. She is sure enough that Sammael is dead that she risked rummaging through his stuff. She possesses, for sure, the mark of the forsaken.

 

As to her motives for such an attack? She has no apparent interest in Rand's death at the hands of 100,000 trollocs, but it does not mean that she wouldn't prefer Rand dead. To be honest, I do not understand why the DO & Co. aren't trying their hardest to kill Rand. He has to be @ TG or the badguys win. It seems to me that if he's dead he can't be @ the last battle, and the badguys would win. Maybe Graendal is the only one of the forsaken smart enough to realize this. Or maybe she isn't the only one to realize this, but is the only one who hasn't been beat down by Moridin or too crazy to let Rand die by anyone's hands but their own. Maybe Graendal is the only one of the forsaken who is still thinking straight.

 

While that could be her motive, I find that another motive seems more likely Graendal's style. Making Moridin and the other forsaken think that Sammy is still alive gives her the freedom to act however she wants. On the surface she is obidient little graendal, but when ever she wants to put the others off guard or do something that would get her into trouble, she just puts on her Sammy suit and goes and does it. I would be impressed with Graendal if she did in fact manipulate Sammael into confronting Rand in Shadar Logoth, so that he would die in a way that he wouldn't be reincarnated, so that she could take over his persona, and use it to her own ends. If that were the case, she would have lived up to her reputation, otherwise she's just been a dolled up lackey to Sammael, which would make her a dissapointing character as far as I'm concerned.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If its not Taim, Graendal is next on my list.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Mine too.

 

That being said, as to your question about the Shadow not doing everything in their power to kill Rand. I too find it strange, which is why i think it is not that Shadow, but rathe Moridin that instigated the new no-kill order. Moridin has plenty of reason to be afraid of what will happen to him if Rand is killed while the link between them still exists.

[loki redfern]

wasnt sammael balefired by rand and morrie. and you cant come back from balefireing, at least not in this age, as it burn out the thread

[algspkr]

wasnt sammael balefired by rand and morrie. and you cant come back from balefireing, at least not in this age, as it burn out the thread

No he was consumed by Mashadar, and I'm guessing that because it consumes the soul makes it impossible for the Dark One to recycle the victom.

[cloglord]

I did run across something that made me rethink Moridin's possible motives in the attack on Rand.

 

At the end of TDR Be'lal mentions that Ishmael was always one to lie if he thought it could gain him anything. What if Moridin is, for his own crazy reasons, keeping the other forsaken off guard. Putting out the wrong number of chairs at the gardens, lying about Sammael being back. He does seem to be a lier, and crazy. I don't think we can rule him out entirely. I mean out of all the forsaken, moridin is the most likely to know the fate of Sammael. We know he was in Shadar Logoth with some agenda, do you think he just left after the crossed balefire incident, or doesn't it make more sense to stick around and see what happens? As Naeblis he's got a direct line to the lord of the grave, right?

 

 

While on the topic of Sammy ond Moridin, how is it exactly that Moridin knew just the right time to show up for the shadar logoth battle? What caused Sammy's sudden change in attitude the book before he dies? Could it be that Moridin manipulated him into facing Rand?