Just how rich are the characters?

[BFG]

I seem to remember that the banking system was explained in New Spring when Moiraine and Siuan went on their shopping spree (well, Moiraine anyway). Most Aes Sedai had their money deposited either in the Tower or in Tar Valon banks, while Moiraine used a different bank so that no one in the Tower could snoop on her activities.

 

I wonder if the funds of Siuan and the other rebels were frozen and unavailable after the Tower split...

 

I think they were, not sure where the initial money comes from, but I guess it takes time to cut off funds, but after Eg joins them and shows them travelling they intercept the tributes that the borderlands pay the WT. Later it's supplemented with cuendillar.

 

I would like to add, concerning the dresses that Moiraine and Siuan bought, that those were from one of the best seamstresses in Tar Valon. The best seamstress, in the largest city in Randland, which also happens to be a commercial center. To me, that's like paying over $1000 for a suit, which some people do, but it's still possible to get away with much less. I doubt that all Aes Sedai buy the most expensive clothes that exist.

 

I was thinking about this example as well.

 

$1,000 spent at the best custom tailor in New York City won't buy tie. My buddy's father does custom suits in Atlanta and they go for minimum of $10k a suit. Women's dresses are typically cheaper than men's clothing, but assuming $10k per dress, Moiraine dropped $100k on clothes. Which means one gold crown is equal to $10k as well.

 

In the WoT world, the prices are all out of wack. No way to come up with a comparative analysis. A farm that only costs 10 gold crowns? Maybe if you only grew veggies on a few acres. If you are growing a cash crop like tabac AND raising animals you need serious acreage. The farms around where I live that raise sheep have about ~130 acres and it would be a steal to find one for sale at $2,500 per acre. $325k for a farm...

 

Better be happy with the idea that Rand and Co is beyond rich - they are wealthy.

 

IRL land's expensive (at least in UK) because it's all claimed, there won't be any more and thus supply and demand, limited supply to lots of demand. Randland haven't got this problem yet. I doubt that farms towards the borders of a country are worth a great deal as there's so much unclaimed land. The only thing that really adds value is the time and effort spent clearing the ground. So at the beginning of tEotW the Two Rivers Folk would definately be considered poor. By the end of ToM they've all earned/married into high positions and would be beyond wealthy.

[Thrasymachus]

I think the heresy that Jordan didn't have the economics fully worked out is probably right, but that it's not really a detriment because working out the economics of a complex society is hard. That's probably why he had so many different denominations of currency, and different valuations of currency depending on the country of origin such that an Andoran mark is worth more than a Tairen or Illianer mark, so he could cover his relatively inability to create a complete, coherent and consistent economy.

 

To illustrate the difficulty in evaluating economic outcomes, I refer to that excellent post above that attempts to give some conversion metrics for common Randland currencies. The author of that post writes:

 

Tax in most farming communities was for years was never money... but something like 5-10% of their production; when this reaches the city rulers/merchants will be able to distribute food for coin; in effect "taxing" the population even before monetary taxes are collected. In this method inflation is much higher within cities than villages. So the same amount of money will not be able to buy as much in one place as it will in another.

 

In fact, the economic result of this scenario is exactly the opposite of what the author of this post concludes. Because taxes in rural areas are predominantly in the form of goods and services, not money, you'll have relatively the same amount of money chasing a smaller amount of goods, resulting in rising prices and thus inflation in rural areas. Taxes in urban areas being mostly money, and where the goods and services collected in rural areas are dispersed in the cities, you'll have less money chasing more goods, resulting in falling prices and thus deflation in the cities.

[Durinax]

another thing that needs to enter people calculations is weights of the coins, it can make a huge difference

[jsbrads]

Feudal economies functioned very differently than ours, with cheap power, transportation, and manufacturing, things like the relative price of food in a farming community to food in the big city would be far larger than today.

 

Even the price of horses would see a big difference in relative price (tho not as large due to the relative transportability of horses and the economic incentive to going to farming communities and buy up all the horses to sell in the city.

 

Dresses which include, making thread, weaving cloth, and seamstress employment to handmake does not compare to buying a dress in our community, imagine if you were going to pay Ralph Lauren to personally hand make you a dress, you couldn't pay enough money to get that done, tho I guess actors on red carpet get similarly exclusive clothing pre-release would the closest equivelent to the Aes Sedai dress (they didn't go to common dress makers, TarValons clothing district is more like shopping at Saville Row.

 

I think most Aes Sedai don't use all their money and at the end of their lives the money reverts to WhiteTower. The salary is designed to be more than they need so they will never be short and dependant on others (ie bribeable)

[Orderofolde]

Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question but just how rich are the characters in WoT?

 

I thought of this question when I realized how much gold they have.

In TSR, Moiraine gives enough gold to Nyneave and Elayne to buy an entire fleet of ships. And I'm sure I read somewhere that someone had enough gold to buy 2 villages.

And in New Spring, it was stated that an Aes Sedai receives a thousand gold mark stipend from the Tower each year. Which looks a lot, but in the chapters after, Moiraine bought dresses for ten gold marks each and I recall she bought at least 20. For me, this makes the salary of Aes sedai pretty low, because

that means if an Aes sedai decides to splurge for a hundred dresses then they would have spent their entire year's funds. And in my opinion, a hundred dresses isn't a lot at all for a rich woman. (Or maybe that's because I'm thinking of the Hollywood lifestyle)

 

In relation to this, can somebody give me a rough idea on the how much their money is in today's currency?

I recall that Mat in TSR gives a servant a Tar Valon gold mark and the servant was shocked. Is that akin to like giving somebody $50 USD in today's time?

In contrast, when Nynaeve gave Valan Luca a silver penny, he got angry. I know that they always relate the worth of the money by relating it to "the price of a good horse back home" but I have no idea how much a horse costs either.

 

And finally, just how big is the gap between those who are rich and the poor?

Our main characters seem to fling money about but I recall that Elayne's chump change in TGH containing only a few silvers to be enough to live for a month according to Nyneave (before the prices increased anyway)

 

Thanks for all those who will reply/ discuss :)

If you also read, that seamstress was likely the most expensive in the city. Elsewhere, dresses were about 5-8 gold and also these were all of the finest silks and woolens available. Moiraine is a Damodred, her uncle was Lathen, king of Carhien. She had financial reserves as we see with her visiting the banker. She never needed the tower's gold, so imagine 40+ years of all that accumulating, and filter that through the POV of characters that never had a silver mark before much less gold crowns. The Awe effect also multiplied the gold and its purchasing power likely.

[Maleshub]

Regarding the $$$ value of gold marks and crowns, I think weight should be taken into consideration. The "Mark" and "Crown" are both gold; but one weighs much more and is probably of better quality gold. The least a mark could be is in the range of 2-3 grams; and I would expect a crown to be about 10 grams. I think today's gold prices are 60$ per gram. A Mark would be 120 - 180 $$ in value and a Crown would be 1000 - 1500 in value.

[jsbrads]

Regarding the $$$ value of gold marks and crowns, I think weight should be taken into consideration. The "Mark" and "Crown" are both gold; but one weighs much more and is probably of better quality gold. The least a mark could be is in the range of 2-3 grams; and I would expect a crown to be about 10 grams. I think today's gold prices are 60$ per gram. A Mark would be 120 - 180 $$ in value and a Crown would be 1000 - 1500 in value.

 

Thats probably true, but just keep in mind that things like dresses would be thousands of dollars and corn on the cob copper penny, so explaining dollar value of gold coins doesn't compare with price of items for sale in market place

[Maleshub]

Regarding the $$$ value of gold marks and crowns, I think weight should be taken into consideration. The "Mark" and "Crown" are both gold; but one weighs much more and is probably of better quality gold. The least a mark could be is in the range of 2-3 grams; and I would expect a crown to be about 10 grams. I think today's gold prices are 60$ per gram. A Mark would be 120 - 180 $$ in value and a Crown would be 1000 - 1500 in value.

 

Thats probably true, but just keep in mind that things like dresses would be thousands of dollars and corn on the cob copper penny, so explaining dollar value of gold coins doesn't compare with price of items for sale in market place

 

True; but I won't go into inflation rates and Hollywood (Tar Valon) prices here. Mat paid 10 crowns for the trip from Whitebridge to Tear ... that's 10000 - 15000 dollars, which is insane; but he paid it. And he paid about 8 crowns for the Razor, 8000-12000 that is a reasonable price for a good horse. My post was just to show the relation of gold to $US value.

[Hagazussa]

I would like to add, concerning the dresses that Moiraine and Siuan bought, that those were from one of the best seamstresses in Tar Valon. The best seamstress, in the largest city in Randland, which also happens to be a commercial center. To me, that's like paying over $1000 for a suit, which some people do, but it's still possible to get away with much less. I doubt that all Aes Sedai buy the most expensive clothes that exist.

 

Aes Sedai is rather rich to put it mildly. Remember when Mo gives Rand and the rest a silver coin each the boys think that can buy a good horse. Seanchan gives 2000 gold coins in reward for someone giving up an Aes Sedai so they can capture her, and that is enough money to make a family extremely wealthy. Aes Sedai have a stipend of 1000 gold coins a year and that is allot, more than enough to be able to wear the best dresses from the best dressmakers in the city, especially considering that money is all for their personal use, they get lodging and food for free at the Tower.

[jsbrads]

True; but I won't go into inflation rates and Hollywood (Tar Valon) prices here. Mat paid 10 crowns for the trip from Whitebridge to Tear ... that's 10000 - 15000 dollars, which is insane; but he paid it. And he paid about 8 crowns for the Razor, 8000-12000 that is a reasonable price for a good horse. My post was just to show the relation of gold to $US value.

 

Before Mat went to Tear, When he traveled from the White Tower to Aringill, he paid tons of money to make use of the captain's cabin and food. not for a regular cabin, but remember cant compare us money to gold coins

[MountaineerWV]

Regarding the $$$ value of gold marks and crowns, I think weight should be taken into consideration. The "Mark" and "Crown" are both gold; but one weighs much more and is probably of better quality gold. The least a mark could be is in the range of 2-3 grams; and I would expect a crown to be about 10 grams. I think today's gold prices are 60$ per gram. A Mark would be 120 - 180 $$ in value and a Crown would be 1000 - 1500 in value.

 

Thats probably true, but just keep in mind that things like dresses would be thousands of dollars and corn on the cob copper penny, so explaining dollar value of gold coins doesn't compare with price of items for sale in market place

 

True; but I won't go into inflation rates and Hollywood (Tar Valon) prices here. Mat paid 10 crowns for the trip from Whitebridge to Tear ... that's 10000 - 15000 dollars, which is insane; but he paid it. And he paid about 8 crowns for the Razor, 8000-12000 that is a reasonable price for a good horse. My post was just to show the relation of gold to $US value.

 

Just picking...;)

 

Only $12k for a horse? That's dirt cheap. Comparing them to Thoroughbreds doesn't seem reasonable, given a Razor's uniqueness. An average Thoroughbred goes for about $50k. I could chalk this up to the author maybe not being familiar with the price of a good horse....and to inconsistencies within Randland economics.

[jsbrads]

mountaineerww: you have to remember that in a economy where horses are necessary would be very different than today, so the prices for everything would not match prices of today, no correlation at all

[Veracohr]

My frame of reference for money is (from earlier in the series) Mat buying ale at taverns. It was usually one or two coppers for a mug I think. If you assume a glass of low-quality, locally made beer bought in a seedy bar in a small town, I'd call that about $1-2.

[MountaineerWV]

...so a horse to WoT are as cars are to us?

 

So a Razor is like a Maserati?

 

;)

 

Like I said, I'm just picking. I don't think there is any way to properly put their wealth into measurable quantities such that we would understand. Rand owns a significant portion of Tear! That would be like someone owning a significant part of a G8 country. Hundred of billions of $$.

[jsbrads]

...so a horse to WoT are as cars are to us?

 

So a Razor is like a Maserati?

 

;)

 

Like I said, I'm just picking. I don't think there is any way to properly put their wealth into measurable quantities such that we would understand. Rand owns a significant portion of Tear! That would be like someone owning a significant part of a G8 country. Hundred of billions of $$.

 

Maybe more like a Pagani Zonda, only royal family

 

Tear might be more like ancient Eygpt, than Zimbabwea, more gold, less wealth.

 

Funny u mention beer, just heard beer in US cheapest in world in hours worked per pint, a few minutes, other countries range from 20min to 1hr

[BFG]

...so a horse to WoT are as cars are to us?

 

So a Razor is like a Maserati?

 

;)

 

Like I said, I'm just picking. I don't think there is any way to properly put their wealth into measurable quantities such that we would understand. Rand owns a significant portion of Tear! That would be like someone owning a significant part of a G8 country. Hundred of billions of $$.

 

Maybe more like a Pagani Zonda, only royal family

 

Tear might be more like ancient Eygpt, than Zimbabwea, more gold, less wealth.

 

Funny u mention beer, just heard beer in US cheapest in world in hours worked per pint, a few minutes, other countries range from 20min to 1hr

 

But would you really want to drink US beer? :P

 

Highlights another problem with our trying to interpret their economy - not only is their an "exchange rate" between the countries, but in some countries your money is going to go further.

[jsbrads]

the comparison is between the median cost for beer with median income, so location is important, not type of beer

 

In today's economy, you can find an exchange rate between a african farmer and a NYC Financier. But you can't compare anyone on this earth with an ancient eygptian farmer.

[Charlz Guybon]

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/results.asp#midhttp://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency/results.asp#mid

 

100 pounds in the year 1700 would be worth £7,809 in today's (2005) currency.

 

But that doesn't show the magnitude of inflation.

 

That 100 pounds would buy

 

1,111 x

Days (craftsman wages in building trade)

     

or

     

166 x

Wool (per stone)

     

or

     

50 x

Wheat (quarter)

     

or

     

24 x

Livestock (cow)

     

or

     

18 x

Horse (single)

 

 

I have no problem believing 100 Gold Crowns could buy a good sized farm in an underpopulated land.

[ReaderofWot]

I don't think it's possible to correlate the WoT economy with ours. In a rural area like the Two Rivers, they would barely use money at all. Almost all trade within the borders of the Two Rivers would be barter, and all the money they had would be some coppers and silver pennies from selling off their wool and tabac to peddlers, most of which would be given right back for the essentials that weren't produced in the villages. A silver penny in that system really would be a lot, because the farmers would make so little that trying to sell anything at any significant price would be useless. 10 crowns would be enough to make their heads explode; most likely it'd be something they had literally never seen. Turning those 10 crowns into actual assets, though, would be difficult, because no one nearby would have enough money to give them change for it.

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't think it's possible to correlate the WoT economy with ours. In a rural area like the Two Rivers, they would barely use money at all. Almost all trade within the borders of the Two Rivers would be barter, and all the money they had would be some coppers and silver pennies from selling off their wool and tabac to peddlers, most of which would be given right back for the essentials that weren't produced in the villages. A silver penny in that system really would be a lot, because the farmers would make so little that trying to sell anything at any significant price would be useless. 10 crowns would be enough to make their heads explode; most likely it'd be something they had literally never seen. Turning those 10 crowns into actual assets, though, would be difficult, because no one nearby would have enough money to give them change for it.

Given that their economy is based on cash crops, they have a significant amount of money coming in, and it doesn't seem like they buy enough imported goods to balance it out so the Two Rivers is definitely running a positive trade balance. There is likely more money than you think floating around.

[Thrasymachus]

The Two Rivers economy is based on cash crops, but those crops are largely bartered with merchants for other goods.  What net coin they do retain from the merchants is largely spent on the peddlers, the rest is retained to lubricate trades within the region, which are also largely bartered.  Prior to tSR, the Two Rivers had little need for coin, so they wouldn't have kept much around, and would rather have spent it at the same time they acquired it on those things they required, cloth, especially cotton and linen, books and other "luxury" items, pins and needles, and special tools that would have been difficult for the blacksmiths of the region to produce in sufficient quantity.

[Charlz Guybon]

The Two Rivers economy is based on cash crops, but those crops are largely bartered with merchants for other goods.  What net coin they do retain from the merchants is largely spent on the peddlers, the rest is retained to lubricate trades within the region, which are also largely bartered.  Prior to tSR, the Two Rivers had little need for coin, so they wouldn't have kept much around, and would rather have spent it at the same time they acquired it on those things they required, cloth, especially cotton and linen, books and other "luxury" items, pins and needles, and special tools that would have been difficult for the blacksmiths of the region to produce in sufficient quantity.

This is never indicated at all. Rand and Mat think in terms of how much things are worth in money not in exchanges.

 

There is no way that most of it can be spent on peddlers, a society like the Two Rivers can make almost everything they need. The only thing that they would need to buy from peddlers are luxury goods, and we don't really see much of that in town, the most common luxury good we see  is books.

 

EDIT: By the way, there's no cotton in the Westlands. Aiel clothes are made from it, but they don't export it.

[ReaderofWot]

The Two Rivers economy is based on cash crops, but those crops are largely bartered with merchants for other goods.  What net coin they do retain from the merchants is largely spent on the peddlers, the rest is retained to lubricate trades within the region, which are also largely bartered.  Prior to tSR, the Two Rivers had little need for coin, so they wouldn't have kept much around, and would rather have spent it at the same time they acquired it on those things they required, cloth, especially cotton and linen, books and other "luxury" items, pins and needles, and special tools that would have been difficult for the blacksmiths of the region to produce in sufficient quantity.

This is never indicated at all. Rand and Mat think in terms of how much things are worth in money not in exchanges.

 

There is no way that most of it can be spent on peddlers, a society like the Two Rivers can make almost everything they need. The only thing that they would need to buy from peddlers are luxury goods, and we don't really see much of that in town, the most common luxury good we see  is books.

 

EDIT: By the way, there's no cotton in the Westlands. Aiel clothes are made from it, but they don't export it.

It is indicated indirectly, because it is the only logical explanation for how inexpensive all the goods are in the Two Rivers compared to everywhere else. All we have to go on here is the state of the region and the past state of the region, and in this case those two values are identical. If there was a positive trade balance, then the Two Rivers would either be much larger and richer than it was or the prices would be inflated to normal Andoran prices. They must get very little money for their production, and they must spend it all on peddlers, otherwise they wouldn't be the way they are.

[Ryan D]

We need to do a conversion. Anyone that tries to use paper money in Randland would get laughed at, so the dollar is out. I'm assuming that the metals used to make nickles, dimes and quarters are useless as a currency to them. They'd probably smelt it for something more usefull, like a clasp for a necklace or something.

 

Currently, the U.S. penny weighs about 2.5 grams. 1 gram of pure copper (the penny is about 97% zinc) costs around $0.0066. Assuming that their copper penny weighs the same, it would be worth about $0.0165 or round it up to 2 cents. So:

 

$0.02 = 1 copper penny

$0.20 = 1 silver penny

$2.00 = 1 silver mark

$20.00 = 1 silver crown

$200.00 = 1 golden mark

$2,000.00 = 1 golden crown

 

So yeah. They're pretty rich. The worst part is, is that if you want 1 golden crown you have to fork over 200,000 pennies since all of our other currency would be useless to them.

 

Please check my math and facts.

[Viperswhip]

It also likely depends where the coins are from. Try and trade Illianer money in Tear, you will have to go to a second rate money launderer. Try trading the Tower money anywhere the Whitecloaks hold much sway or in Tear, not going to get as much. It's really all relative.

 

When did the world reserve currency system start? Was the British Pound the first?

 

The Two Rivers has probably seen a great deal of inflation in the current crisis. After the Trollocs were dealt with they get a lot of relatively well to do refugees showing up there. That won't sit well with the locals.