Were Nyneave and Egwene Mentioned in Dark Prophecy?

[Naggash]

Remember that Moraine killing Be'lal was because she balefired him by surprise not because she was near as powerful. As someone said above, a Forsaken can be surprised as any human, and there's no way of stopping Balefire in the WW, so any channeler strong enough to channel it can beat a Forsaken. This doesnt mean, though, that they are equally powerful. They are not. Only Nyn equals Mog, Mesa and maybe Semir. Egwene is below all of them, though I could see her fight with Mesa end in draw if it had came a OP fight. Mesa doesn't seem particulary skilled at using the OP to fight.

Oh, and beating Lanfear was another "surprise moment" yet she didn't kill her, they just passed trough the ter'angreal.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Remember Nye beat Mog when she had her channeling block. Egwene is stronger than Moraine by a large margin. Moraine surprised the Forsaken at the Eye of the World by her strength. Elayne equal to Egwene in most aspects. When the AS healed Matt in the Tower. Egwene said she could hold about half that much power. Nye said she could almost hold as much. We know now that the BA was littered throughout the tower. So you could assume that the Shadows plans at Flame would be to take the three strongest channelers aligned with the light out of the picture.

 

Simple strategy. As far as these two beating the Forsaken. I can see it because the Forsaken have a weakness that is they think they are suppose to win. Mog proved it when Nye beat her. After Flame the Forsaken proved that they didn't think they were strong enough to deal with Rand or the others without help. Most fights were chases or they had help in the fights and the Forsaken usually lost.

 

1. Nynaeve and Egwene said no such thing. Nynaeve said she thought "she couldn't channel nearly half as much power", which is something completely different. 13 Aes Sedai with the most powerful female sa'angreal in the Tower. Nobody could even hold a quarter of that power unaided.

 

2. Elayne wasn't included in the Plans at Falme, she was not supposed to be there. It was only Nynaeve and Egwene that Liandrin was supposed to bring, but she adapted the plan because Elayne was Daughter Heir, nothing to do with how powerful she was.

 

3. Your point contradicts itself. First you admit that the Forsaken have a weakness that they are superior and are supposed to win, then you say they wanted to remove Egwene and Nynaeve because they were powerful enough to challenge them?

 

By their nature, by their weakness, the Forsaken wouldn't admit that Egwene and Nynaeve were a threat.

 

It was because of their relationship to Rand, and the help that they could give him in the future that they were being sent away.

[fionwe1987]

Egwene started that after Falme. Verin gave her the Twisted Ring in the beginning of TDR, which started her dreaming adventures.

From tGH, Chapter 18:

 

Egwene nodded. Somehow, she was sure it was better not to tell Anaiya about him. She could not imagine why, but she was sure. Three times the man whose eyes were fire had been in her dreams each time when she dreamed a dream that convinced her Rand was in danger. He always wore a mask across his face; sometimes she could see his eyes, and sometimes she could only see fire where they should be. "He laughed at me. It was so . . . contemptuous. As though I were a puppy he was going to have to push out of his way with his foot. It frightens me. He frightens me."

 

And then there's this, from tGH, Chapter 15:

 

"You find odd followers," Ba'alzamon mused. "You always did. These two. The girl who tries to watch over you. A poor guardian and weak, Kinslayer. If she had a lifetime to grow, she would never grow strong enough for you to hide behind."

 

Ishy is lying, of course. Anyone who can escape Moggy's traps with not even a clue that its there is strong enough to kick his ass. Ishameal shows here that he was trying to look for Rand's followers, and Egwene was one among them who he had already faced. He would hardly want her in the Tower, where she might learn and grow in her abilities till she could challenge him in TAR.

 

In fact, I always felt this was foreshadowing for a TAR fight between them.

[Mhaliah]

I think that they are mentioned in the Shadow Prophecies is highly likely. When they were taken through the ways to be handed to the Seanchan in Falme Liandra (I think that was the Black Ajah Sedai's name) specifically references the DO's orders when talking the the woman of Seanchan Blood. I think that she was one of the Aes Sedai that were noticed by the dark friend Lord Captain CoL in one of those early prologues.

[Terez]

Ishamael is a Dreamer; he probably saw them in his own dreams.

[Agitel]

Nynaeve is the only one with Forsaken strength though. Even Nynaeve is not "more powerful than any Forsaken", she can only match some of them. Egwene is below every single Forsaken in terms of Power.

 

Nynaeve is not at the peak of her power at this point, and she beats Moghedien due to sheer power. Sometime after this point, Elayne ranks Egwene as equal in the power with Nynaeve (this is not due to them having the same potential, but because Egwene's growth was forced with the Seanchan), so I'd have to say that Egwene is certainly stronger than Moggy, and Elayne and Avi will eventually surpass Moggy as well (if they haven't already). Moghedien may be more equal to Cads, if not weaker.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nynaeve is the only one with Forsaken strength though. Even Nynaeve is not "more powerful than any Forsaken", she can only match some of them. Egwene is below every single Forsaken in terms of Power.

 

Nynaeve is not at the peak of her power at this point, and she beats Moghedien due to sheer power. Sometime after this point, Elayne ranks Egwene as equal in the power with Nynaeve (this is not due to them having the same potential, but because Egwene's growth was forced with the Seanchan), so I'd have to say that Egwene is certainly stronger than Moggy, and Elayne and Avi will eventually surpass Moggy as well (if they haven't already). Moghedien may be more equal to Cads, if not weaker.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 16th, 1995

East of the Sun Con - Karl-Johan Norén (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

On channeler strength he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha was a step lower

 

 

She [Elayne] had grown accustomed to knowing that Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha’s, matched Egwene’s.

 

- The Path of Daggers, Unweaving

[Suttree]

Remember Nye beat Mog when she had her channeling block. Egwene is stronger than Moraine by a large margin. Moraine surprised the Forsaken at the Eye of the World by her strength.

 

She did no such thing, Moiraine got owned at the Eye. In addition as others have pointed out the rest of your post is off as well. Back to your original point however they unequivocally do not have the potential to "be more powerful than any forsaken period".

[randsc]

Moiraine "defeated" Lanfear by tackling her. Maybe the Shadow is afraid Nynaeve and Egwene are the re-birth of Dick Butkis and Mike Singletary.

[Agitel]

Nynaeve is the only one with Forsaken strength though. Even Nynaeve is not "more powerful than any Forsaken", she can only match some of them. Egwene is below every single Forsaken in terms of Power.

 

Nynaeve is not at the peak of her power at this point, and she beats Moghedien due to sheer power. Sometime after this point, Elayne ranks Egwene as equal in the power with Nynaeve (this is not due to them having the same potential, but because Egwene's growth was forced with the Seanchan), so I'd have to say that Egwene is certainly stronger than Moggy, and Elayne and Avi will eventually surpass Moggy as well (if they haven't already). Moghedien may be more equal to Cads, if not weaker.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 16th, 1995

East of the Sun Con - Karl-Johan Norén (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

On channeler strength he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha was a step lower

 

 

She [Elayne] had grown accustomed to knowing that Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha’s, matched Egwene’s.

 

- The Path of Daggers, Unweaving

 

I decided to look up the estimated 21-level saidar scale put together at the Thirteenth Depository to see what the consensus is, and you seem to be right.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Level 18

Nynaeve, Semirhage, Talaan

 

Level 17

Mesaana, Someryn (minimum)

 

Level 16

Moghedien, Tamela, Viendre

 

Level 15

Aviendha, Egwene, Elayne, Metarra

 

Personally, I thought Moghedien still might be a little weaker. Nynaeve being on level with the average female Forsaken and Egwene, Elayne and Avi being a step lower still allows for there being a few weaker Forsaken (such as Moggy) who those three might be stronger than, but pursuing this debate would be pretty fruitless of me anyway.

[baalsmistress]

There's so much light prophecy that we don't know, and presumably even more dark. Anything and everything could be covered by it, but since it happens without an on-screen reading of the prophecy, we will never know

[Kahsm]

Must resist temptation to argue Egwene channeling agility vs OP strength.

 

But as many others have said. There's lots of LP and even more DP we don't know. So I'm sure they're in there somewhere. They're probably as irreplaceable as Perrin and Mat. Ta'veren-ness can be turned on and off by the wheel on a whim it seems, so that's not really the difference. The wheel needs them for who they are, being ta'veren just seems to magnify their influence, makes things a little easier for them (Perrin's leadership "skills" for example). The pattern simply decided Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene don't need it to achieve it's balance, not that they aren't important.

[fionwe1987]

Must resist temptation to argue Egwene channeling agility vs OP strength.

Its pointless to this discussion. Ishy has no way to know hoe dextros Egwene would become. Not even the AS knew.

[Kahsm]

Yes, hence my resistance to adding to the off shoot topic I did not start of Egwene v. Forsaken outside TAR, to which it would be particularly relevant, and could possibly explain why she could be in the DP and not just some token upper strength female channeler.

 

I don't claim to believe that, but if you wanted to argue kickass people are more likely to be in the prophecies, then to dismiss Egwene because of one variable, when we know there is a whole other specialty for her, would be wrong.

[Terez]

It's doubtful Ishamael knew of their significance from a prophecy, since people are not identified by name or appearance in the prophecies. Much more likely he had a dream of them.

[Naggash]

I still think the most probable cause is them being Rand-relative and the most powerful AS known at the moment.There's no need to complicate it more imo.

[Terez]

Then why exclude Elayne? It wasn't because she was the Daughter-Heir and they didn't want to start a fight with Morgase; they had plans to have her killed if she stayed.

[Naggash]

Then why exclude Elayne? It wasn't because she was the Daughter-Heir and they didn't want to start a fight with Morgase; they had plans to have her killed if she stayed.

They excluded Elayne because as you said they had plans to kill her in the WT, which would be much easier I think.

They wouldn't just kill Egwene and Nynaeve in the Tower because they weren't planned to die at all. Imo they wanted to either turn them, use Compulsion on them or leash them, so they would become a great weapon against Rand because of their relation, and because of the same reasoning that would serve their planes of lurking Rand into Falme.

[Terez]

If they were trying to lure him anywhere, it was across the Aryth. Fain was the one trying to lure Rand to Falme. Killing all three would have been easy, and if they were planning to send the girls across the Aryth, then they weren't planning to use them as leverage.

[Naggash]

Unless they wanted something special done to them. I don't know (I think noone does) what they exactly wanted to do to them. I only think that whatever it was, they had plenty of reasons without including Dreams and DP. I accept Ishy having a Dream about them being possible, but not necessary at all.

[fionwe1987]

It's doubtful Ishamael knew of their significance from a prophecy, since people are not identified by name or appearance in the prophecies. Much more likely he had a dream of them.

Agreed. If Ishamael saw Egwene as Amyrlin, say, he'd have ample reason to send her away.

[Knivy]

Then why exclude Elayne? It wasn't because she was the Daughter-Heir and they didn't want to start a fight with Morgase; they had plans to have her killed if she stayed.

They excluded Elayne because as you said they had plans to kill her in the WT, which would be much easier I think.

They wouldn't just kill Egwene and Nynaeve in the Tower because they weren't planned to die at all. Imo they wanted to either turn them, use Compulsion on them or leash them, so they would become a great weapon against Rand because of their relation, and because of the same reasoning that would serve their planes of lurking Rand into Falme.

Wasn't it just Eggy and Nyn when the Gray Man came?

[Naggash]

Then why exclude Elayne? It wasn't because she was the Daughter-Heir and they didn't want to start a fight with Morgase; they had plans to have her killed if she stayed.

They excluded Elayne because as you said they had plans to kill her in the WT, which would be much easier I think.

They wouldn't just kill Egwene and Nynaeve in the Tower because they weren't planned to die at all. Imo they wanted to either turn them, use Compulsion on them or leash them, so they would become a great weapon against Rand because of their relation, and because of the same reasoning that would serve their planes of lurking Rand into Falme.

Wasn't it just Eggy and Nyn when the Gray Man came?

Yes. But that's only what we see. If I remember correctly in Liandrin's conversation with them she implies that there already were "plans" for Elayne, though I can't remember anything more.

[Knivy]

The point of that wasn't to disprove that they had plans for Elayne, but to promote the idea that they were being "taken care of" due to their relationship to Rand. If their are two plans in place, that means two forsaken at work. It is unlikely that Ishy would share his dreams with the others, so its either their relationship to the Ta'Veren or prophecies.

[Naggash]

The point of that wasn't to disprove that they had plans for Elayne, but to promote the idea that they were being "taken care of" due to their relationship to Rand. If their are two plans in place, that means two forsaken at work. It is unlikely that Ishy would share his dreams with the others, so its either their relationship to the Ta'Veren or prophecies.

Good point. But it's mistaken. I've been told that at this moment Semirhage wasn't free yet (only Aginor and Belal for being the nearest to the world in the bore), so I assume non of the others were except Ishy.

So we have two possibilities: Them being taken to Seanchan is Semirhage's doing as I had said (in which case your point is good). Or Ishy just changed his mind, or the DO changed his mind.