Heroes of the Horn

[Lacanos]

I did have evidence to back my view, which you chose to ignore, with italics and everything. What can I possibly say to that?

 

You have bugger all evidence. The only evidence you gave regarding Birgitte is that we know she lived four times between the Founding of the Tower and the end of the Trolloc Wars. Forgive me for not thinking that's sufficient to prove heroes are reborn in a set cycle, when that cycle would have to be different from hero to hero.

 

So yeah, stop being so ridiculous and self-righteous. I'm pretty sure that, if you have a theory and you want to persuade others of it (which is the whole point of posting on a discussion board, so don't bother saying you don't care whether others believe it or not) then I've got the right to point out you've got very little evidence of it.

[Thrasymachus]

They can't all be huge forces on the world, just recurring themes that the wheel likes.

This. Further, who are we to judge what the Wheel needs or how it needs it? Maybe the Wheel needed to weave a Birgitte-like character and a Gaidal-type character into a normal life, to further some distant goal? I would go so far as to suggest that everything the Wheel weaves it weaves because it needs to, after all, even a very sophisticated computer A.I., which is how R.J. has described the Wheel, is still a deterministic program, it can only do what it's sophisticated settings and rules dictate that it do.

 

For such a thing, there can be no distinction between what it needs to do and what it does, it always does exactly and only what it needs to do, what it has been designed and programmed to do. That it is difficult to predict what it will weave means that we don't understand its program, not that it lacks one. When it weaves in a Hero in an atypical pattern, it can only be because it needs that thread in that pattern. But the rules for weaving in Heroes, as well as what makes those threads special, as opposed to the common threads of everybody else's lives, are likely as complex as the rules that govern the running of the Wheel itself. And considering the Wheel is at least meant to turn eternally, a single one-thousand year period is not enough to make judgments about what kind of regularity rules the re-births and lives of any of the Heroes.

[Wolf505]

Here's a question related to Heroes of the Horn I don't think I've seen posted: Who in our world history do you think could be one of the heroes of the horn, which one and why? Or who in history do you think could be one, with or without a parallel in the books?

 

I'll start with a fairly obvious one: Alexander the Great= Artur Hawkwing. Both were very young generals and nobles of small countries that ended up ruling most of the world for a time.

 

As for who could be one? One of my favorite figures from history is Scipio Africanus. He took over as commander of the Roman army at the age of 24 when nobody else would after the massive Roman defeat at Cannae, then brought Rome back from the brink of defeat to the Carthaginians thus altering the course of western civilization for the next thousand years (at least). He also vastly changed the way the Roman legions fought, including the use of Auxilaries (lightly armored skirmishers) and the Gladius (previously the legions only fought with spears). His defeat of the Carthaginians at Zama is considered to be one of the most resounding victories in military history. At the very least, he was very strongly ta'veren.

[Lacanos]

Here's a question related to Heroes of the Horn I don't think I've seen posted: Who in our world history do you think could be one of the heroes of the horn, which one and why? Or who in history do you think could be one, with or without a parallel in the books?

 

I'll start with a fairly obvious one: Alexander the Great= Artur Hawkwing. Both were very young generals and nobles of small countries that ended up ruling most of the world for a time.

 

As for who could be one? One of my favorite figures from history is Scipio Africanus. He took over as commander of the Roman army at the age of 24 when nobody else would after the massive Roman defeat at Cannae, then brought Rome back from the brink of defeat to the Carthaginians thus altering the course of western civilization for the next thousand years (at least). He also vastly changed the way the Roman legions fought, including the use of Auxilaries (lightly armored skirmishers) and the Gladius (previously the legions only fought with spears). His defeat of the Carthaginians at Zama is considered to be one of the most resounding victories in military history. At the very least, he was very strongly ta'veren.

 

I'm pretty sure Artur Hawkwing is a reference to King Arthur Pendragon of myth; although I suppose there could be elements of multiple people within him and that seems a fairly good comparison.

[FarShainMael]

'Artur Paendrag' is indeed a bit of a giveaway.. but as has been said many a time before, RJ doesn't do carbon copies. Hawkwing didn't draw the Sword from the Stone, for example.

 

There's a thread on the Structured board about this:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8886-mythalogical-inspirations-for-the-wheel-of-time/

[fionwe1987]

I did have evidence to back my view, which you chose to ignore, with italics and everything. What can I possibly say to that?

You had evidence that the Heroes were born even when the Pattern didn't need them. You had evidence that Birgette was born four times in a thousand years. You had no evidence that Birgette was born regularly, at roughly equal intervals.

[1Brotherbill]

So how often does Brigitte get spun out? From the WT being built and the Trolloc Wars was four lives or five if you want to split hairs. Trolloc wars were about one thousand years after the breaking? Or am I wrong again?

 

I don't think that the story said anything about her being reborn since the Trolloc Wars. Which would mean that she isn't reborn that often if you step back and look at it.

[Durinax]

As for who could be one? One of my favorite figures from history is Scipio Africanus. He took over as commander of the Roman army at the age of 24 when nobody else would after the massive Roman defeat at Cannae, then brought Rome back from the brink of defeat to the Carthaginians thus altering the course of western civilization for the next thousand years (at least). He also vastly changed the way the Roman legions fought, including the use of Auxilaries (lightly armored skirmishers) and the Gladius (previously the legions only fought with spears). His defeat of the Carthaginians at Zama is considered to be one of the most resounding victories in military history. At the very least, he was very strongly ta'veren.

just to derail this a bit but Scipio beat an already crippled Carthaginian nation, especially with Hannibal out in Italy and how he was losing men without any chance of recruitment.

[Thrasymachus]

You had evidence that the Heroes were born even when the Pattern didn't need them. You had evidence that Birgette was born four times in a thousand years. You had no evidence that Birgette was born regularly, at roughly equal intervals.

 

She doesn't have evidence that Heroes are born even when the Pattern didn't need them, she has evidence that Birgitte and Gaidal were born into a normal life. The Pattern may very well have needed Birgitte and Gaidal in that normal life, however. I am reminded of that stupid poem, "for want of a nail, the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe, the horse was lost, yadda yadda yadda, for want of something the war was lost, all for the want of a 1 penny nail." Maybe the Pattern needed Birgitte and Gaidal to grow just the right kind of potatoes and sell them to just the right merchants, so they would make their way to a particular heir to a throne, and he would choke on the potatoes and die, leaving a different person to be heir that eventually leads to something else important, like House Mantear ending up on the Lion throne just before House Trakand, or something. And you're right, being born into 4 lives in a 1000 year period at least 2000 years ago is not a big enough sample size to adequately estimate any kind of periodicity. If that pattern were continued into the next 2000 years, that would be suggestive, but would only show that Birgitte and Gaidal were born a lot in the 3rd Age compared to other Heroes like Hawkwing or Rand.

[Byzantine279]

I believe it is in part taking Birgette's lifespan into account, she can only be born once in a lifetime, after all.

[Sephie913]

I suppose it's theoretically possible that Heroes are spun out in regular intervals, in the sense that long, repeating decimals, strings twenty or thirty digits long, can still be repeating. If the pattern is tens, or even hundreds of lives long, before it starts reppeating once more, then it resolves the Birgitte/Gaidal age issue.

 

That being said, I'm not sure I believe it's the case. While time is cyclical in WoT, RJ stated that there are always differences in those cycles. I don't see that being true without the heroes being different, as well.

 

Does anyone else find it likely that:

1) Jain Farstrider was, is, and will be a hero of the horn

2) that Guaire Amalasan [False Dragon during Hawkwing's rise]is a hero (it would be poetic if he were Logain, and I see some similarities besides the obvious, but I don't find that likely)

3)Souran Maravaile[Hawkwing's general, allegedly the greatest swordsman in 3rd age] is a hero.

[Lacanos]

I suppose it's theoretically possible that Heroes are spun out in regular intervals, in the sense that long, repeating decimals, strings twenty or thirty digits long, can still be repeating. If the pattern is tens, or even hundreds of lives long, before it starts reppeating once more, then it resolves the Birgitte/Gaidal age issue.

 

That being said, I'm not sure I believe it's the case. While time is cyclical in WoT, RJ stated that there are always differences in those cycles. I don't see that being true without the heroes being different, as well.

 

Does anyone else find it likely that:

1) Jain Farstrider was, is, and will be a hero of the horn

2) that Guaire Amalasan [False Dragon during Hawkwing's rise]is a hero (it would be poetic if he were Logain, and I see some similarities besides the obvious, but I don't find that likely)

3)Souran Maravaile[Hawkwing's general, allegedly the greatest swordsman in 3rd age] is a hero.

It seems quite likely that Jain is or will be one due to his exploits etc.

Guaire, I don't think we know enough about to comment.

Souran Maravaile you seem to have merged with Jearom.

[1Brotherbill]

I have a feeling all of the main characters of the story are heroes tied to the horn. At least the five from the TR. I remember once that someone said that there are no channelers attached to the horn. There is nothing to prove or disprove that one. So the five from the TR might be attached to the horn.

[Andrew Coleman]

Didn't Birgitta comment once that she and Gaidal prefered to "burn out in glory" although she remembered once when they grew old together. As she said "it was the most boreing existance ever" or something like that. With that said it would appear that they didn't get spun out to fight or correct anything in every life

[Sephie913]

I suppose it's theoretically possible that Heroes are spun out in regular intervals, in the sense that long, repeating decimals, strings twenty or thirty digits long, can still be repeating. If the pattern is tens, or even hundreds of lives long, before it starts reppeating once more, then it resolves the Birgitte/Gaidal age issue.

 

That being said, I'm not sure I believe it's the case. While time is cyclical in WoT, RJ stated that there are always differences in those cycles. I don't see that being true without the heroes being different, as well.

 

Does anyone else find it likely that:

1) Jain Farstrider was, is, and will be a hero of the horn

2) that Guaire Amalasan [False Dragon during Hawkwing's rise]is a hero (it would be poetic if he were Logain, and I see some similarities besides the obvious, but I don't find that likely)

3)Souran Maravaile[Hawkwing's general, allegedly the greatest swordsman in 3rd age] is a hero.

It seems quite likely that Jain is or will be one due to his exploits etc.

Guaire, I don't think we know enough about to comment.

I feel like I know quite a bit, courtesy of BBwBA. He's actually surprisengly fleshed out, considering that in-series, he's little more than a footnote to Hawkwing's glory.

 

 

Souran Maravaile you seem to have merged with Jearom.

 

Yeah, I did. I was thinking of Bashere talking to Rand in LoC beginning, about his deul with four enemies. *edit* oh, wait, Bashere reverenced Jearom there, too. darn it, where is Souran said to be a great swordsman?

[Suttree]

Souran Maravaile you seem to have merged with Jearom.

 

Yeah, I did. I was thinking of Bashere talking to Rand in LoC beginning, about his deul with four enemies. *edit* oh, wait, Bashere reverenced Jearom there, too. darn it, where is Souran said to be a great swordsman?

 

It was Souran who faced four enemies as mentioned by Elenia in LoC. He was Hawkwings General that besieged Tar Valon and was later the First Prince of the Sword to Ishara.

[Sephie913]

Thank you, I was sure it must have been in LoC. I don't know how I got them all mixed up. I was getting kinda frustrated for a moment.

[Kudzu]

I have a feeling all of the main characters of the story are heroes tied to the horn. At least the five from the TR. I remember once that someone said that there are no channelers attached to the horn. There is nothing to prove or disprove that one. So the five from the TR might be attached to the horn.

 

I'd say Rand/LTT disproves that pretty conclusively.