How to become a Great Captain

[Finnssss22]

You make it sound like anyone who leads an army or has fought in numerous battles should be a Great Captain.

During WWII, was every General a Great Captain then? No, that's why there were ones that stood out like Rommel, Patton and Montgomery.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that these 5 guys stand out above the rest, are not just good strategists but military geniuses and are recognized for it?

Rommel wasn't that great a general, he had a solid foundation like most german generals, but all he really did was being aggressive and a little bit faster than his oppenent thought.

He was also charismatic and he died in oppossition to Hitler so he was suitable as a hero on both sides after the war and he got somewhat propped up for propaganda reasons so the allied generals looked better in beating him.

 

According to who, you?

Considering he first distinguished himself as being a very smart and tactically sound commander in WWI, long before he was promoted to the Rank of General/Field Marshal.

No offense but I highly suggest you take a look at his entire career and accomplishments before making blanket statements based on what was only a very short amount of his career.

Like, did you even realise that he was only a Colonel in the beginning of WWII and was promoted because of his successes and sometimes unique in the field solutions to achieve those successes.

He has a long history of coming up with innovative tactics and strategies, not just what he did during WWII.

In fact, I wouldn't take issue with anyone saying Rommel was the best General during WWII. Not saying I would completely agree with it but it would be a hard fought debate.

 

Only considered good because of propaganda....sorry, try again.

[Benganza]

This isn't exactley a highly controversial take on Rommel and is pretty much the consens on all WW2 documentations I have seen in the last 15 years who go deeper than showing lots of footage of big tank battles and air raids.

 

He was by no means a bad General but in comparison to other german generals like Guderian, von Mannstein, Paulus or Kesselring he was just average and yet he is the most widely know of them because of his appeal to hollywood etc.

 

His career got a lot of push from Hitler himself because his dashing style of command fit well into his worldview and his value to the propaganda machinery.

[Lacanos]

Talking about great captains and mention of Mat ... how many Seanchan soldiers did he kill during his 7-10 day campaign in Altara? Before answering, he started out with 3 banners of horse (4500 cavalry) and 4000 mounted crossbowmen for a total of 8500. In "A cup of kaf" we know that there were 4 sizable engagements and 60 raids, ambushes, and skirmishes. If we give an average of 100 - 200 Seanchan deaths per raid, skirmish, or ambush, then we would have 10K Seanchan killed in those alone. With the sizable engagements, one resulted in 4000 dead or rendered useless. And we have another engagement in which the Seanchan lost 4 banners of horse (6000) and 5 of foot (15000) for a total of at least 20000 lost in that engagement. If the other two sizable engagements are as small as the first, that's another 8000 Seanchan killed. The total for Mat's campaign up till Loune's briefing to Karede would be 10000 + 12000 + 20000 = 42000 Seanchan killed.

 

Mat lost 900 (500 cavalry and 400 crossbowmen). And he didn't lose a single POW.

 

That is what Great Captains do!

The number of seanchan he killed was irrelevant. H minimised his own casualties while achieving his objective - getting the stopper in the jar out.

BTW the campaign description sounded just a little like Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.

 

The numbers in my post failed to include Elbar's army, another 10000. That would bring the total to 52000 Seanchan troops killed and only 900 men lost. And Mat achieved his objective!

 

Again, that's what Great Captains do!

Not entirely accurate.

He defeated 52000 men. It's almost certain that he didn't kill every single one in every encounter - remember, when they fought Elbar's force, Talmanes remarked at the end that the enemy were "fools" as none of them tried to escape.

[wookiebear]

The number of seanchan he killed was irrelevant. H minimised his own casualties while achieving his objective - getting the stopper in the jar out.

BTW the campaign description sounded just a little like Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.

 

Thank you,

 

I was trying to remember what this series of battles reminded me of and I think you are correct, it does resemble Jackson's series of engagements in the Shenandoah. What I get for being a battle history buff, though most of my interest is in the late Roman/Dark Ages/Medieval periods of history

 

I some ways it reminds me of Harald Godwinson's forced march from Stamford Bridge to Hastings Hill in 1066..................I will now put the history geek back in his box

[Maleshub]

Talking about great captains and mention of Mat ... how many Seanchan soldiers did he kill during his 7-10 day campaign in Altara? Before answering, he started out with 3 banners of horse (4500 cavalry) and 4000 mounted crossbowmen for a total of 8500. In "A cup of kaf" we know that there were 4 sizable engagements and 60 raids, ambushes, and skirmishes. If we give an average of 100 - 200 Seanchan deaths per raid, skirmish, or ambush, then we would have 10K Seanchan killed in those alone. With the sizable engagements, one resulted in 4000 dead or rendered useless. And we have another engagement in which the Seanchan lost 4 banners of horse (6000) and 5 of foot (15000) for a total of at least 20000 lost in that engagement. If the other two sizable engagements are as small as the first, that's another 8000 Seanchan killed. The total for Mat's campaign up till Loune's briefing to Karede would be 10000 + 12000 + 20000 = 42000 Seanchan killed.

 

Mat lost 900 (500 cavalry and 400 crossbowmen). And he didn't lose a single POW.

 

That is what Great Captains do!

The number of seanchan he killed was irrelevant. H minimised his own casualties while achieving his objective - getting the stopper in the jar out.

BTW the campaign description sounded just a little like Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.

 

The numbers in my post failed to include Elbar's army, another 10000. That would bring the total to 52000 Seanchan troops killed and only 900 men lost. And Mat achieved his objective!

 

Again, that's what Great Captains do!

Not entirely accurate.

He defeated 52000 men. It's almost certain that he didn't kill every single one in every encounter - remember, when they fought Elbar's force, Talmanes remarked at the end that the enemy were "fools" as none of them tried to escape.

 

Actually the text clearly indicates that the majority were killed and the rest the next thing to it. The Band decimated enemy troops in excess of 50K troops and lost about 1K. It is different from Rodel's battle against Turan at Darluna where half the Seanchan army fled the battle ground. With Mat's campaign, very few escaped the field.

 

If you want me to quote the text, I can do it; but not now.

[avernite]

Talking about great captains and mention of Mat ... how many Seanchan soldiers did he kill during his 7-10 day campaign in Altara? Before answering, he started out with 3 banners of horse (4500 cavalry) and 4000 mounted crossbowmen for a total of 8500. In "A cup of kaf" we know that there were 4 sizable engagements and 60 raids, ambushes, and skirmishes. If we give an average of 100 - 200 Seanchan deaths per raid, skirmish, or ambush, then we would have 10K Seanchan killed in those alone. With the sizable engagements, one resulted in 4000 dead or rendered useless. And we have another engagement in which the Seanchan lost 4 banners of horse (6000) and 5 of foot (15000) for a total of at least 20000 lost in that engagement. If the other two sizable engagements are as small as the first, that's another 8000 Seanchan killed. The total for Mat's campaign up till Loune's briefing to Karede would be 10000 + 12000 + 20000 = 42000 Seanchan killed.

 

Mat lost 900 (500 cavalry and 400 crossbowmen). And he didn't lose a single POW.

 

That is what Great Captains do!

The number of seanchan he killed was irrelevant. H minimised his own casualties while achieving his objective - getting the stopper in the jar out.

BTW the campaign description sounded just a little like Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.

 

The numbers in my post failed to include Elbar's army, another 10000. That would bring the total to 52000 Seanchan troops killed and only 900 men lost. And Mat achieved his objective!

 

Again, that's what Great Captains do!

 

Let's be honest: this can't be what they do routinely. If Ituralde could destroy 52 Taraboner soldiers for every soldier he lost, and assuming the two nations are fairly equal nations (which I think we can assume, since they've bickered about the same piece of land for ages while neither is know for troubles with other nations) he would have crushed Tarabon badly. Instead he seems to have, at best, ensured an upper hand for Arad Doman. Andor, likewise, has seen no amazing expansion or power increase under Bryne, just a rapid return to its pre-Succesion power or so.

 

Never mind Niall, who admittedly DID do amazingly against a big coalition, but if he could score like that I don't see the Whitecloaks losing at all, given the numbers they must've had pre-Falme and Seanchan/trolloc attacks. He could've wiped out half a million enemies with the lowest numbers for current Whitecloaks I could easily find (9k) and with what I think there are (~20k in EOTW; Bornhald can divert a 1000 men from his legion and make it appear his whole legion remains, so IMO there should be at least this many anyway; better calculations may exist) he could defeat a million. Illian, Andor and Tear together couldn't field that many, never mind the motley coalition he DID face.

 

 

Mat's campaign was, rightly, awe-inspiring. It's beyond what even Great Captains can normally achieve.

[Finnssss22]

This isn't exactley a highly controversial take on Rommel and is pretty much the consens on all WW2 documentations I have seen in the last 15 years who go deeper than showing lots of footage of big tank battles and air raids.

 

He was by no means a bad General but in comparison to other german generals like Guderian, von Mannstein, Paulus or Kesselring he was just average and yet he is the most widely know of them because of his appeal to hollywood etc.

 

His career got a lot of push from Hitler himself because his dashing style of command fit well into his worldview and his value to the propaganda machinery.

 

I'm sure you and I could debate for pages on Rommel but that's a little OT to the point I was responding to.

That just because someone does or has commanded large forces, even victorious ones, that doesn't automatically make one, in the context we're talking about here, a "Great Captain".

[Durinax]

Talking about great captains and mention of Mat ... how many Seanchan soldiers did he kill during his 7-10 day campaign in Altara? Before answering, he started out with 3 banners of horse (4500 cavalry) and 4000 mounted crossbowmen for a total of 8500. In "A cup of kaf" we know that there were 4 sizable engagements and 60 raids, ambushes, and skirmishes. If we give an average of 100 - 200 Seanchan deaths per raid, skirmish, or ambush, then we would have 10K Seanchan killed in those alone. With the sizable engagements, one resulted in 4000 dead or rendered useless. And we have another engagement in which the Seanchan lost 4 banners of horse (6000) and 5 of foot (15000) for a total of at least 20000 lost in that engagement. If the other two sizable engagements are as small as the first, that's another 8000 Seanchan killed. The total for Mat's campaign up till Loune's briefing to Karede would be 10000 + 12000 + 20000 = 42000 Seanchan killed.

 

Mat lost 900 (500 cavalry and 400 crossbowmen). And he didn't lose a single POW.

 

That is what Great Captains do!

The number of seanchan he killed was irrelevant. H minimised his own casualties while achieving his objective - getting the stopper in the jar out.

BTW the campaign description sounded just a little like Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.

 

The numbers in my post failed to include Elbar's army, another 10000. That would bring the total to 52000 Seanchan troops killed and only 900 men lost. And Mat achieved his objective!

 

Again, that's what Great Captains do!

 

Let's be honest: this can't be what they do routinely. If Ituralde could destroy 52 Taraboner soldiers for every soldier he lost, and assuming the two nations are fairly equal nations (which I think we can assume, since they've bickered about the same piece of land for ages while neither is know for troubles with other nations) he would have crushed Tarabon badly. Instead he seems to have, at best, ensured an upper hand for Arad Doman. Andor, likewise, has seen no amazing expansion or power increase under Bryne, just a rapid return to its pre-Succesion power or so.

 

Never mind Niall, who admittedly DID do amazingly against a big coalition, but if he could score like that I don't see the Whitecloaks losing at all, given the numbers they must've had pre-Falme and Seanchan/trolloc attacks. He could've wiped out half a million enemies with the lowest numbers for current Whitecloaks I could easily find (9k) and with what I think there are (~20k in EOTW; Bornhald can divert a 1000 men from his legion and make it appear his whole legion remains, so IMO there should be at least this many anyway; better calculations may exist) he could defeat a million. Illian, Andor and Tear together couldn't field that many, never mind the motley coalition he DID face.

 

 

Mat's campaign was, rightly, awe-inspiring. It's beyond what even Great Captains can normally achieve.

yes because it was not normal conditions, mat had a decent sized force behind enemy frontiers without the enemy knowing of them

[RandA lThor]

he still was able to outmaneuver them by using incredible tactics and since he has all the memories of previous battle leaders, I am pretty sure he is the best general.

[Durinax]

he still was able to outmaneuver them by using incredible tactics and since he has all the memories of previous battle leaders, I am pretty sure he is the best general.

depends on how good the generals where.

 

plus it isnt really outmaneuvering them when they don't really know your there or even nearby to begin with

[RandA lThor]

I think Artur Hawkwing was better than anyone here.

[Suttree]

I think Artur Hawkwing was better than anyone here.

 

Wondering how much he relied on Souran Maravaile who was said to be his greatest General and went on to be the First Prince of the Sword to Ishara.

[RandA lThor]

OK, well still, Mat has his memories too. what I am saying is that I am pretty sure that all the memories that Mat has probably beats any single commander who ever lived. it's not fair and not by natural instinct like say Ituralde, but it is true

[TristanWebb]

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of people in any field that have alot of knowlege but that can't put it to effective use in novel situations. Where I used to work there were 4 people that knew about as much of the field as was reasonably expected, but when faced with a new situation they would get stuck, it required someone else to come in to find out how to use that knowlege to work out the problem properly.

[Maleshub]

Let's be honest: this can't be what they do routinely. If Ituralde could destroy 52 Taraboner soldiers for every soldier he lost, and assuming the two nations are fairly equal nations (which I think we can assume, since they've bickered about the same piece of land for ages while neither is know for troubles with other nations) he would have crushed Tarabon badly. Instead he seems to have, at best, ensured an upper hand for Arad Doman. Andor, likewise, has seen no amazing expansion or power increase under Bryne, just a rapid return to its pre-Succesion power or so.

 

Never mind Niall, who admittedly DID do amazingly against a big coalition, but if he could score like that I don't see the Whitecloaks losing at all, given the numbers they must've had pre-Falme and Seanchan/trolloc attacks. He could've wiped out half a million enemies with the lowest numbers for current Whitecloaks I could easily find (9k) and with what I think there are (~20k in EOTW; Bornhald can divert a 1000 men from his legion and make it appear his whole legion remains, so IMO there should be at least this many anyway; better calculations may exist) he could defeat a million. Illian, Andor and Tear together couldn't field that many, never mind the motley coalition he DID face.

 

 

Mat's campaign was, rightly, awe-inspiring. It's beyond what even Great Captains can normally achieve.

 

Of course, you're right. Great Captains don't have a kill/loss ration of 50-1 as a benchmark. That would be extremely ridiculous. Ituralde's Darluna victory cost him half his army. The kill ratio in that battle was close to 1-1 (Ituralde lost 50K and Turan lost 50K dead and the rest fled). But it was still a great victory.

 

The argument of Ituralde and Bryne not affecting the strength of their respective kingdoms has to take into account that the Great Captains do not rule their kingdoms. They follow orders. Andor, one of the most powerful kingdoms in Randland did not have an expansionist strategy. Yet they fought wars against Cairhien and Tear, and to a lesser extent against Muruday. And in these wars, Cairhien and Tear were powerful kingdoms in their own right (Pre-Aiel War Cairhien was extremely rich and powerful). And we don't know what state Arad Doman was in before Ituralde took command of its forces. It could have been that Tarabon was on the verge of conquering Almoth Plain, or that the Domani army was in shambles before him. Being a Great Captain also means that a man knows how to build and structure an army as well; not just fight.

 

Your statement on Mat's campaign sums it up pretty well. What he did is beyond what an average Great Captain would do. He is a few Great Captains, good generals, and decent officers mixed in one.

 

yes because it was not normal conditions, mat had a decent sized force behind enemy frontiers without the enemy knowing of them

he still was able to outmaneuver them by using incredible tactics and since he has all the memories of previous battle leaders, I am pretty sure he is the best general.

depends on how good the generals where.

 

plus it isnt really outmaneuvering them when they don't really know your there or even nearby to begin with

 

 

True, the Seanchan did not initially know about Mat's force; but after the first night of raids, they knew. And they still were out-fought, out-maneuvered, out-generaled through out the rest of the campaign.

 

I think Artur Hawkwing was better than anyone here.

 

Even better than Mat?

 

OK, well still, Mat has his memories too. what I am saying is that I am pretty sure that all the memories that Mat has probably beats any single commander who ever lived. it's not fair and not by natural instinct like say Ituralde, but it is true

 

 

I think Mat's memories stop right at Artur Hawkwing. He doesn't have Hawkwing's memories; but has the memories of people that fought against him. If I remember correctly, Mat's memories cover 1000 years from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing. Nothing before and nothing after.

 

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of people in any field that have alot of knowlege but that can't put it to effective use in novel situations. Where I used to work there were 4 people that knew about as much of the field as was reasonably expected, but when faced with a new situation they would get stuck, it required someone else to come in to find out how to use that knowlege to work out the problem properly.

 

I recall many references where Niall and others commented on how the best laid plan is up in the air when the first arrow flies. The mark of a good commander or great captain is to adapt his plan according to battlefield developments.

[RandA lThor]

Let's be honest: this can't be what they do routinely. If Ituralde could destroy 52 Taraboner soldiers for every soldier he lost, and assuming the two nations are fairly equal nations (which I think we can assume, since they've bickered about the same piece of land for ages while neither is know for troubles with other nations) he would have crushed Tarabon badly. Instead he seems to have, at best, ensured an upper hand for Arad Doman. Andor, likewise, has seen no amazing expansion or power increase under Bryne, just a rapid return to its pre-Succesion power or so.

 

Never mind Niall, who admittedly DID do amazingly against a big coalition, but if he could score like that I don't see the Whitecloaks losing at all, given the numbers they must've had pre-Falme and Seanchan/trolloc attacks. He could've wiped out half a million enemies with the lowest numbers for current Whitecloaks I could easily find (9k) and with what I think there are (~20k in EOTW; Bornhald can divert a 1000 men from his legion and make it appear his whole legion remains, so IMO there should be at least this many anyway; better calculations may exist) he could defeat a million. Illian, Andor and Tear together couldn't field that many, never mind the motley coalition he DID face.

 

 

Mat's campaign was, rightly, awe-inspiring. It's beyond what even Great Captains can normally achieve.

 

Of course, you're right. Great Captains don't have a kill/loss ration of 50-1 as a benchmark. That would be extremely ridiculous. Ituralde's Darluna victory cost him half his army. The kill ratio in that battle was close to 1-1 (Ituralde lost 50K and Turan lost 50K dead and the rest fled). But it was still a great victory.

 

The argument of Ituralde and Bryne not affecting the strength of their respective kingdoms has to take into account that the Great Captains do not rule their kingdoms. They follow orders. Andor, one of the most powerful kingdoms in Randland did not have an expansionist strategy. Yet they fought wars against Cairhien and Tear, and to a lesser extent against Muruday. And in these wars, Cairhien and Tear were powerful kingdoms in their own right (Pre-Aiel War Cairhien was extremely rich and powerful). And we don't know what state Arad Doman was in before Ituralde took command of its forces. It could have been that Tarabon was on the verge of conquering Almoth Plain, or that the Domani army was in shambles before him. Being a Great Captain also means that a man knows how to build and structure an army as well; not just fight.

 

Your statement on Mat's campaign sums it up pretty well. What he did is beyond what an average Great Captain would do. He is a few Great Captains, good generals, and decent officers mixed in one.

 

yes because it was not normal conditions, mat had a decent sized force behind enemy frontiers without the enemy knowing of them

he still was able to outmaneuver them by using incredible tactics and since he has all the memories of previous battle leaders, I am pretty sure he is the best general.

depends on how good the generals where.

 

plus it isnt really outmaneuvering them when they don't really know your there or even nearby to begin with

 

 

True, the Seanchan did not initially know about Mat's force; but after the first night of raids, they knew. And they still were out-fought, out-maneuvered, out-generaled through out the rest of the campaign.

 

I think Artur Hawkwing was better than anyone here.

 

Even better than Mat?

 

OK, well still, Mat has his memories too. what I am saying is that I am pretty sure that all the memories that Mat has probably beats any single commander who ever lived. it's not fair and not by natural instinct like say Ituralde, but it is true

 

 

I think Mat's memories stop right at Artur Hawkwing. He doesn't have Hawkwing's memories; but has the memories of people that fought against him. If I remember correctly, Mat's memories cover 1000 years from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing. Nothing before and nothing after.

 

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of people in any field that have alot of knowlege but that can't put it to effective use in novel situations. Where I used to work there were 4 people that knew about as much of the field as was reasonably expected, but when faced with a new situation they would get stuck, it required someone else to come in to find out how to use that knowlege to work out the problem properly.

 

I recall many references where Niall and others commented on how the best laid plan is up in the air when the first arrow flies. The mark of a good commander or great captain is to adapt his plan according to battlefield developments.

 

That's what I am saying, because mat has Hawking's memories he is better than anyone. And I don't have a quote, but I think I remember him having the memories of Hawking's general, which means he could also have memories of hawking.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Mat does not have Hawkwing's memories, but he does have quite a few memories of men who hated Artur.

 

Edit: hated might be too strong. There is a quote where he says Artur was a difficult person even before the consolidation.

[RandA lThor]

I thought he had Artur's general's memories?

[Durinax]

I thought he had Artur's general's memories?

no he had people who fought Artur

[RandA lThor]

technically, we don't know all the people that he has memories of, so in AMoL he could have a really great moment where he remembers what Hawking did.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I thought he had Artur's general's memories?

no he had people who fought Artur

IIRC Mat does mention having memories from both sides of the same battle. This could have been at any period between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing's empire. It is possible one of those memories could have been from one of Hawkwing's general. He may even have said it was, I do not remember. But it is certain that Mat does not have Hawkwing's memories. His added memories are no longer separate things in his head, but are fully meshed into his life. By that I mean he remembers everything as if it happened to him. When he reflects upon Hawkwing, it is always rembering a separate person. He never refers to anything about Hawkwing as if it were himself.

[Finnssss22]

Mat's memories cover 1000 years from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing. Nothing before and nothing after.

 

Just a slight correction, it's closer to 1500-1700 years.

The Trolloc Wars started around 1000AB and lasted 300 years, then it was about another 1000 years till Hawkwing ;)

 

Mat's memories are from well before the Trolloc Wars till the final battle of Hawkwing's rise.

 

LoC 5:

Another gain really had been knowledge, if unwanted knowledge. Slices of other men's lives packed his head now, thousands of them, sometimes only a few hours, sometimes years altogether though in patches, memories of courts and combats stretching for well over a thousand years, from long before the Trolloc Wars to the final battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise. All his now, or they might as well be.

[Maleshub]

technically, we don't know all the people that he has memories of, so in AMoL he could have a really great moment where he remembers what Hawking did.

 

Mat's theory is that he has the memories of men who used the ter'angreal in the Stone of Tear or Rhuidean. That is the technical common denominator. I remember the quote, it is in CoT when Tuon asks him if he remembers Hawkwing's face.

 

Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. "Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?" Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning at him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.

 

Mat's smile felt frozen. Light, what did she know? How could she know anything He lay beneath the burning sun, holding his side with both hands, trying to keep the last of life from leaking out and wondering whether there was any reason to hold on. Aideshar was finished, after this day's work. A shadow blotted the sun for an instant, and then a tall man in armor crouched beside him, helmet tucked under his arm, dark deep-set eyes framing a hooked nose. "You fought well against me today, Culain, and many days past," that memorable voice said. "Will you live with me in peace?" With his last breath, he laughed in Artur Hawkwing's face. He hated to remember dying. A dozen other encoutners skittered through his mind, too, ancient memories that were his, now. Artur Paendrag had been a difficult man to get along with even before the wars started.

[Sharaman]

Actually Mat's theory is that he has the memories of men who met the Finns = could be tear/ rhuidean/ toghenjei. He also has a historical timeline of when the memories start and end.

[wookiebear]

Actually Mat's theory is that he has the memories of men who met the Finns = could be tear/ rhuidean/ toghenjei. He also has a historical timeline of when the memories start and end.

 

I remember him stating this theory, but cannot remember the book or chapter

 

I always wondered about that, why would the Finn's have access to so many great commanders to harvest memories from. It seems to me that they would harvest from those that interested them, perhaps through TAR.