Setalle Anan

[Suttree]

Well things can change. Remember RJ said the OP couold not heal madness, but look what Ny did.

 

Right but based on the in world evidence we have and the differences between burning out and stilling it really shouldn't be possible. See the quote in post #20.

[RandA lThor]

i would really like to see her healed. with her previous knowledge,she could make an impact. also,the light needs all the help it can get.

 

Was just talking about this in another thread. I would like to see her healed as well but I'm not sure it is possible. If you are stilled you can still sense the source and there is a cut to bridge. If you are burned out you can't sense anything. There is nothing to be healed.

 

LoC

"But there is something there to be Healed," Nynaeve insisted, "or you’d feel nothing through the bracelet."

 

This is the quote that Suttree is talking about by the way. I can see this, but again, as I have said before, anything but death can be healed. Especially if she was someone with the spark and they know how she was burned out, then they might be able to fix her.

[Edynol]

Yeah. We're all basing our opinions off assumptions and theories, no one has said burning out can't be healed, so matter how much else you know about wot, you can't say for certain this is how it is. Doesn't really matter what evidence we have cause it really isn't 100% solid, it's pretty much circumstantial. Before ToM, we all knew madness couldn't be healed, and I remember seeing theories shot down about madness being healed because RJ said it couldn't and it was considered canon. But then those who shot it down, not naming names, looked like fools while those who were shot down laughed in their faces. Just goes to show that you can be right about 99% of the things that happen, but still be wrong once in a while.

 

Now I'm not saying it will or can be healed, but I definitely ain't discounting it at this point until we get undeniable proof either from BS and his team or from the book. Remember how men can heal women from stilling better and vice versa, so maybe it would take a man to heal a woman from burning out and vice versa. But since men can't wear an a'dam with a female at the end, or vice versa, that I know of, there is no way to know if they'd might feel something or not. Maybe if Setalle wore a domination band with a male on the end, she might feel something. I doubt that, but it's possible. Just too many variable to consider at this point for any of us to be 100% sure.

[kght22]

Yeah. We're all basing our opinions off assumptions and theories, no one has said burning out can't be healed, so matter how much else you know about wot, you can't say for certain this is how it is. Doesn't really matter what evidence we have cause it really isn't 100% solid, it's pretty much circumstantial. Before ToM, we all knew madness couldn't be healed, and I remember seeing theories shot down about madness being healed because RJ said it couldn't and it was considered canon. But then those who shot it down, not naming names, looked like fools while those who were shot down laughed in their faces. Just goes to show that you can be right about 99% of the things that happen, but still be wrong once in a while.

 

Now I'm not saying it will or can be healed, but I definitely ain't discounting it at this point until we get undeniable proof either from BS and his team or from the book. Remember how men can heal women from stilling better and vice versa, so maybe it would take a man to heal a woman from burning out and vice versa. But since men can't wear an a'dam with a female at the end, or vice versa, that I know of, there is no way to know if they'd might feel something or not. Maybe if Setalle wore a domination band with a male on the end, she might feel something. I doubt that, but it's possible. Just too many variable to consider at this point for any of us to be 100% sure.

i cant help but mention that it wasn't madness that was healed. the taint was removed and the taint was causing an artificial madness. the brain that was tainted was healthy by itself. i'm thinking rj put that quote out there to throw people off.

[Edynol]

RJ has never flat out lied, at worst he gave Aes Sedai answers to mislead, but never flat out lied. Cleansing the taint from the persons brain healed the madness, period. Doesn't matter how it was being caused, Nynaeve got rid of it, healed it. Trying twist it into something semantical is just foolish grasping at straws and hurts your argument more than it supports it.

[Suttree]

Cleansing the taint from the persons brain healed the madness, period. Doesn't matter how it was being caused, Nynaeve got rid of it, healed it. Trying twist it into something semantical is just foolish grasping at straws and hurts your argument more than it supports it.

 

Not really, there has been quite a bit of discussion on this topic. Here is the footnote from the Q&A's which touches on it...

 

Interview: Nov 17th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Robert Moreau (Verbatim)

Question

Will we see Nynaeve Heal the darkness that is in some of the male channelers before the Cleansing?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Nynaeve has said before, and believes, that everything can and should be able to be Healed, except for maybe death, and she certainly believes that it is possible. I'm not going to say whether or not it will happen.

Footnote

 

Nynaeve Healed Naeff's madness in Towers of Midnight 15, and spoke of Healing other Asha'man as well. Since RJ said that the One Power can't be used to Heal insanity, this has led to some heated discussion. Those inclined to give Brandon the benefit of the doubt have suggested that what Nynaeve did wasn't technically Healing (she did specify that she didn't use Healing weaves).

 

After all, no matter how much you know about WoT you can't say for certain that's what it is.

[Vardar]

i would really like to see her healed. with her previous knowledge,she could make an impact. also,the light needs all the help it can get.

 

Was just talking about this in another thread. I would like to see her healed as well but I'm not sure it is possible. If you are stilled you can still sense the source and there is a cut to bridge. If you are burned out you can't sense anyting. There is nothing to be healed.

 

LoC

"But there is something there to be Healed," Nynaeve insisted, "or you’d feel nothing through the bracelet."

 

The real question is, why did she feel pain when she put the bracelet on? When other people who can't channel put the bracelet on, nothing happens. Why would she react like a man had put it on? That always bothered me.

[Edynol]

heal (hl)

v. healed, heal·ing, heals

v.tr.

1. To restore to health or soundness; cure.

2. To set right; repair: healed the rift between us.

3. To restore (a person) to spiritual wholeness.

v.intr. To become whole and sound; return to health

 

See Cure

 

cure (kyr)

1. To restore to health.

2. To effect a recovery from: cure a cold.

3. To remove or remedy (something harmful or disturbing): cure an evil.

4. To preserve (meat, for example), as by salting, smoking, or aging.

5. To prepare, preserve, or finish (a substance) by a chemical or physical process.

6. To vulcanize (rubber).

 

No matter how ya look at it, whatever weaves she used, she healed the madness. Fact.

[Agitel]

It struck me that the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends did figure out how to Heal the madness induced by touching saidin.

 

 

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

 

The danger was in getting close enough to lay hands on the afflicted, and given that the taint still lay on saidin there would be no protection from the man going mad again. Severing or death was still the only sure way of preventing the madness, so a cured man would still need to be severed, and perhaps once mad it would only come again faster a second time. It's also possible that the taint was stronger then (it does seem like a limited supply, but that's a different argument). All of that, along with the fact that many Aes Sedai may not have been skilled enough in that area to remove madness and the high rate of attrition during the many decades of the Breaking and the continued war, likely meant that the knowledge was lost and perhaps considered somewhat useless. This does seem to imply, however, that ancient Aes Sedai did look into this and even managed to do what Nynaeve did or something similar.

 

As for what Nynaeve did, it seems like the insanity induced by the taint is caused by the taint physically laying itself on the brain. This is different than someone being "naturally" insane. Unfortunately, Robert Jordan's words are conflicting:

 

QUESTION

 

New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

 

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In the Prologue to The Eye of the Worldwe saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

http://www.theorylan...ain.php?i=75#11

 

 

That said, the questions and RJ's answered are listed as being paraphrased (and reads as such with that in mind, as if it's hastily written notes). Evidence from the first quote I posted leads me to believe there's no internal contradiction.

[Edynol]

Elan, who is Ishy, used the True Power, which comes from the Dark One, not the One Power. Before Ny figured out how, only the TP could heal madness, which no other AS had access to other than aside from privileged Forsaken.

[Sephie913]

It struck me that the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends did figure out how to Heal the madness induced by touching saidin.

 

 

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

 

The danger was in getting close enough to lay hands on the afflicted, and given that the taint still lay on saidin there would be no protection from the man going mad again. Severing or death was still the only sure way of preventing the madness, so a cured man would still need to be severed, and perhaps once mad it would only come again faster a second time. It's also possible that the taint was stronger then (it does seem like a limited supply, but that's a different argument). All of that, along with the fact that many Aes Sedai may not have been skilled enough in that area to remove madness and the high rate of attrition during the many decades of the Breaking and the continued war, likely meant that the knowledge was lost and perhaps considered somewhat useless. This does seem to imply, however, that ancient Aes Sedai did look into this and even managed to do what Nynaeve did or something similar.

 

As for what Nynaeve did, it seems like the insanity induced by the taint is caused by the taint physically laying itself on the brain. This is different than someone being "naturally" insane. I don't know if that interpretation conflicts with anything Jordan has said.

 

Ishy used TP for that healing. Saw it in interview database, looking for it now. TP can do things OP can't/in a different way. That's why the description for the healing was so different.

 

I agree with the second half, however, that the RJ quote regarding madness was AS speak. Mesema, for instance, couldn't be healed, while AM could be, because it was cause by an outside source.

 

 

*edit*

 

Dang it! you beat me to it. But I got more. ;p

[Edynol]

Heheheh. I actually ninja'd someone! Yay! lol.

 

But yeah, what was wrong with Masema most likely couldn't be healed, as far as I know. Though I think it may be possible if someone laid a modified version of compulsion on him to contradict the insane thoughts and make him normal that way. That would be something worth researching, I think. lol.

[Agitel]

Did anyone pick up on the fact that Ishy said that the "Sisters" could do it, too? On some level anyway. And of course Elan is Ishy and he was using the TP. That wasn't the point.

[Edynol]

Well perhaps they were on the verge of discovering how to do it, but didn't get the chance to study it more before those sisters were either killed or convinced it couldn't be done by Black Sisters and were convinced it was simpler to just gentle them and be done with it. Or perhaps it was a new book-ism that didn't mean anything. Would have to get an Answer from BS or something for that.

[Sephie913]

Though I think it may be possible if someone laid a modified version of compulsion on him to contradict the insane thoughts and make him normal that way. That would be something worth researching, I think. lol.

 

Interesting. Not technically healing. It would be something Graendal could look into if she flees from DO. A way for her to Compel without being called down for it.

 

Also, I believe that Anan has less chance to be healed, seeing as she feels nothing through the adam. I won't quite say 100% that she can't be, though.

 

 

Well perhaps they were on the verge of discovering how to do it, but didn't get the chance to study it more before those sisters were either killed or convinced it couldn't be done by Black Sisters and were convinced it was simpler to just gentle them and be done with it. Or perhaps it was a new book-ism that didn't mean anything. Would have to get an Answer from BS or something for that.

 

Or maybe it wass pointless. Ishy healed LTT so he could see what he had done, how his plan had ruined the world. He only needed LTT to be sane for a short period; IIRC, Ishy said it would be temporary(I'll look this up in a moment).

[Agitel]

The implication Ishy made was that one of LTT's Sisters could Heal his madness then and there. I already addressed why the knowledge could have been lost and why it wouldn't have been very useful in the long run at preventing the Breaking.

 

Jordan's words on the matter were paraphrased, not word-for-word, as well.

[Edynol]

Yeah I know it wouldn't be healing, it would be like sending it into remission, like with Cancer, I guess. Something like that.

 

As for Ishy healing LTT, I have no clue if it was temporary or not. LTT was sane for that moment on til he died, so we'll never know. He killed himself out of grief, I think, not insanity. Though I guess that kind of grief is in itself a form of insanity. Who knows? lol.

[Maleshub]

My personal perception of Setalle Anan's situation regarding the one power is "A stick:" If it is sawed/broken/or severed, then a clever carpenter can fix it. If it is burned by fire, no one can restore it.

[TootThatHorn]

Well things can change. Remember RJ said the OP couold not heal madness, but look what Ny did.

 

there's a difference in things here that i have to disagree with. What nyn healed was a madness caused from an outside influence, the taint laying atop the brain and thus impacting thought process. Simple madness that even a nonchanneler could suffer from is their current thought process without an outside influence. Their brain is already wired to act in an abnormal way, and there isnt anything to fix, they are just wired differently. a test for that that will never happen would be to heal noam, assuming he wanted it, and realistically assuming he is actually mad, but you get my point lol

[RandA lThor]

However, this was still madness. At birth, if you are mad, it is because of a problem which can technically be healed in some way. Besides, in that interview, I think they were talking about the madness of the male channelers because no other madness is relevant tot he story.

[Edynol]

there's a difference in things here that i have to disagree with. What nyn healed was a madness caused from an outside influence, the taint laying atop the brain and thus impacting thought process. Simple madness that even a nonchanneler could suffer from is their current thought process without an outside influence. Their brain is already wired to act in an abnormal way, and there isnt anything to fix, they are just wired differently. a test for that that will never happen would be to heal noam, assuming he wanted it, and realistically assuming he is actually mad, but you get my point lol

Yeah what RandA said. Regular mental illnesses aren't relivent to the story, so when people talking madness, they are talking about the taint. So while I do get your point, know that your point is moot.

[TristanWebb]

I don't think that is true. Semi travelled the world healing madness before she fell to the Shadow. There was a general Bashere talked about who killed a stand of trees because they looked at him funny then required them to be given proper burial. Non-taint mental illnesses exist in WoT, and they can't be healed in the same way as Nyn healed the taint madness.

[RandA lThor]

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I am saying that it is not relevant. None of these examples will change the world around and will do anything significant. Also, as you just said, Semirhage can heal madness that doesn't come from saidin too.

[Edynol]

perhapse that's what Ishy meant in the prologue with LTT. Maybe Aes Sedai back then knew about healing mental illnesses, one of the things lost to Aes Sedai that Moiraine commented about, and with that would be able to give him a few lucid moments. But as far as the story goes, Madness is pretty much synonomous with the Taint.

[fionwe1987]

RJ had technically sound reasons for saying "madness" couldn't be Healed with the OP. To do that, you would need to correct/heal faulty wiring in a massive scale in the brain (talking very non-technically here). We saw an example of something like that in tGS... that's basically what was done to his brain with Compulsion. And that left him unable to function normally. Any such massive rewiring of the brain would cause too much damage, leading to death.

 

Tain madness, on the other hand, seems to function very differently. Instead of corrupting the brain itself, it forms an entirely independent network that seems to interact with the brain in specific locations. I would guess that those black thorns that plunge into the brain send signals that conflict with normal brain activity. A fully mad channeler probably has the entirity of his brain overtaken by these black wires and thorns. Its almost like he's... possessed. His brain is still there below all that, but its orders are being confused/overriden. That's completely different from normal brain disorders, and therefore easier to Heal.

 

I'm going to go ahead and predict that Semirhage's 13x13 technique actually works similar to the taint. Basically, by filtering through the Myrdraal, a TP compulsion is placed on the channeler that overrides any instinct they have that may be called "good". And I'm fairly sure that Nynaeve will easily be able to heal this.

 

As for Semirhage, she did not Heal insanity in the AoL. She dealt with brain disorders. Graendal was the expert on insanity, and she didn't use the OP for her cures, but psychology.