Lan's Charge

[Maleshub]

The Aes Sedai did not arrive in time to save Malkier the first time. I think the will arrive in time to save what remains of the Malkier this time.

Yeah, that would be good for their redemption.

 

We shall see. I think Rand Sedai will redeem the Aes Sedai vis-a-vis Malkier, not the White Tower.

[Asmod]

I dont really get it either. I mean he's waited 20 years to do this while he was out gallivanting with moiraine. Surely he could at least wait till Rand has all his armies organised and then at least his suicide charge might actually have an impact

[Maleshub]

I dont really get it either. I mean he's waited 20 years to do this while he was out gallivanting with moiraine. Surely he could at least wait till Rand has all his armies organised and then at least his suicide charge might actually have an impact

 

Reading TEotW, I got a sense that the oath sworn over Lan in the cradle was not just simple words. He was sworn to fight the Shadow, and always felt the Blight pull him.

 

As to his charge, it might end up saving Shienar. And we could look at it as a pattern weave to suite Rand's needs.

[Luckers]

Same goes for the question of why Egwene did nothing about the invasion of the Blight Border or the Black Tower. It was a very tunnel-vision month in Randland.

[Aulduron]

I predict that Nynaeve will ride in and save the day, with other Aes Sedai.

[baalsmistress]

I predict that Nynaeve will ride in and save the day, with other Aes Sedai.

 

They're more likely to travel in :)

[Maleshub]

I predict that Nynaeve will ride in and save the day, with other Aes Sedai.

 

They need Ashaman to blow holes in Shadowspawn ranks and Aes Sedai to heal and offer logistics. I would take Ashaman over Aes Sedai in any battle.

[Aulduron]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

[Maleshub]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

 

They have a chance to do just that. And I think they might redeem themselves, if to a small degree. But we'll see in 5 months!

[Suttree]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

 

They have a chance to do just that. And I think they might redeem themselves, if to a small degree. But we'll see in 5 months!

 

Keep in mind that although Ashaman are far better individual weapons, AS have past down knowledge & strategy from the Trolloc Wars on how to best integrate into army "banners" of different nations. This is from a time when " the military arts had reached what many regard as their pinnacle".

[Maleshub]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

 

They have a chance to do just that. And I think they might redeem themselves, if to a small degree. But we'll see in 5 months!

 

Keep in mind that although Ashaman are far better individual weapons, AS have past down knowledge & strategy from the Trolloc Wars on how to best integrate into army "banners" of different nations. This is from a time when " the military arts had reached what many regard as their pinnacle".

 

True, Aes Sedai have their strengths. And their greatest battle strength so far is "circles." But in recent history and battle experience, Dumai Wells, Rand's campaign against the Seanchan, and the Battle of Maradon are examples of what Ashaman are capable of. And Ashaman have been trained as weapons; where Aes Sedai have not. Adelorna and the Battle Ajah didn't fare too well against battle-trained damane.

 

The ideal is exemplified by Cadsuane's defense of Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing. "Mixed circles" would be a devastating battle weapon.

[Suttree]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

 

They have a chance to do just that. And I think they might redeem themselves, if to a small degree. But we'll see in 5 months!

 

Keep in mind that although Ashaman are far better individual weapons, AS have past down knowledge & strategy from the Trolloc Wars on how to best integrate into army "banners" of different nations. This is from a time when " the military arts had reached what many regard as their pinnacle".

 

True, Aes Sedai have their strengths. But in recent history and battle experience, Dumai Wells, Rand's campaign against the Seanchan, and the Battle of Maradon are examples of what Ashaman are capable of. And Ashaman have been trained as weapons; where Aes Sedai have not. Adelorna and the Battle Ajah didn't fare too well against battle-trained damane.

 

But Egwene faired just fine against the damane. Overall don't think we can judge much from a sneak attack against a BA riddled, fain influenced, Forsaken scheming, split WT. In addition the AS at Dumai's Wells acquitted themselves extremely well against a far superior force and WO channelers. Again I am not in any way saying AS are as skilled as weapons. Just that they have a knowledge of strategy and tactics for large scale battles(recall Mat being impressed by Joline in KoD) that is at least the equal of the Ashaman.

[Entreri]

Nynaeve will have to save that maniac.

 

If Lan dies, he goes in a glorious battle (hopefully well depicted by Brandon...), befitting the #1 bladeamster in the world and arguably the #1 blademaster of all time.

[Maleshub]

I'm sure they'll come with other forces (and Moirane), and sent by Rand (fulfilling his promise to Nyn) but I believe the White Tower will redeem themselves in the eyes of Malkieri.

 

They have a chance to do just that. And I think they might redeem themselves, if to a small degree. But we'll see in 5 months!

 

Keep in mind that although Ashaman are far better individual weapons, AS have past down knowledge & strategy from the Trolloc Wars on how to best integrate into army "banners" of different nations. This is from a time when " the military arts had reached what many regard as their pinnacle".

 

True, Aes Sedai have their strengths. But in recent history and battle experience, Dumai Wells, Rand's campaign against the Seanchan, and the Battle of Maradon are examples of what Ashaman are capable of. And Ashaman have been trained as weapons; where Aes Sedai have not. Adelorna and the Battle Ajah didn't fare too well against battle-trained damane.

 

But Egwene faired just fine against the damane. Overall don't think we can judge much from a sneak attack against a BA riddled, fain influenced, Forsaken scheming, split WT. In addition the AS at Dumai's Wells acquitted themselves extremely well against a far superior force and WO channelers. Again I am not in any way saying AS are as skilled as weapons. Just that they have a knowledge of strategy and tactics for large scale battles(recall Mat being impressed by Joline in KoD) that is at least the equal of the Ashaman.

 

Your reply must have come as I was editing my post. Aes Sedai's greatest battle strength is "circles." And the ideal for any battle would be "mixed circles," as shown by Cadsuane's defense of Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing.

[MasterAblar]

But Egwene faired just fine against the damane. Overall don't think we can judge much from a sneak attack against a BA riddled, fain influenced, Forsaken scheming, split WT. In addition the AS at Dumai's Wells acquitted themselves extremely well against a far superior force and WO channelers. Again I am not in any way saying AS are as skilled as weapons. Just that they have a knowledge of strategy and tactics for large scale battles(recall Mat being impressed by Joline in KoD) that is at least the equal of the Ashaman.

 

Apart from Taim and Logain who have actually commanded armies, I don't see any reason for the Ashaman to have all that much knowledge of strategy and tactics. They don't appear to taught that at the BT. In this, I would say the Aes Sedai are superior. And like you said, as weapons, not so much. That said I assume it's going to be mostly the great captains, the Aiel clan leaders, and Mat calling the shots, because while the Aes Sedai have the passed down knowlege, they probably don't have all that much hands on experience.

 

Your reply must have come as I was editing my post. Aes Sedai's greatest battle strength is "circles." And the ideal for any battle would be "mixed circles," as shown by Cadsuane's defense of Rand and Nynaeve during the cleansing.

 

Circles have both strengths and weaknesses. They may grant greater power, but only one person can weave.That leaves the rest of the circle vulnerable Works great in corridors and narrow hallways. On a field of battle though you'd best have other channellers backing it up, or else you may find member of the circle dropping right and left.

[Suttree]

That said I assume it's going to be mostly the great captains, the Aiel clan leaders, and Mat calling the shots, because while the Aes Sedai have the passed down knowlege, they probably don't have all that much hands on experience.

 

I agree to a certain point. Where they will come in handy to my mind is implementing the best ways to integrate channelers into "banners". None of the great military minds aside from Mat would have any experience with that.

 

As an aside good to see you MA! Where have you been lately?

[MasterAblar]

I agree to a certain point. Where they will come in handy to my mind is implementing the best ways to integrate channelers into "banners". None of the great military minds aside from Mat would have any experience with that.

 

Yeah, there's definitely room for improvement.

 

As an aside good to see you MA! Where have you been lately?

 

Thanks! Unfortunately, exams, and Euro 2012, made me lay off WoT for a while. Thankfully a trip to Texas (which includes a sudden and steep increase in temperature) has allowed me to get back to WoT.

[Maleshub]

That said I assume it's going to be mostly the great captains, the Aiel clan leaders, and Mat calling the shots, because while the Aes Sedai have the passed down knowlege, they probably don't have all that much hands on experience.

 

I agree to a certain point. Where they will come in handy to my mind is implementing the best ways to integrate channelers into "banners". None of the great military minds aside from Mat would have any experience with that.

 

As an aside good to see you MA! Where have you been lately?

 

The Seanchan have been using battle channelers for centuries, and much more extensively than Aes Sedai. They have an "air force" of channelers. Whatever battle and strategy knowledge the Aes Sedai might have, the Seanchan can better. And the Ashaman under Rodel Ituralde's Saldea defense had an extensive crash course in combat channeling tactics; So did the surviving Ashaman of Rand's campaign against the Seanchan and the Wells survivors. Whatever "Art of War" literature Aes Sedai have lacks practical experience.

 

The evidence is that without Egwene's level-headedness and heroic defense of the WT, the Seanchan raid (by 50 damane and 200 airborne troops against hundreds of Aes Sedai and a garrison of 50K troops), would have resulted in killing much more than 20+ Aes Sedai and capturing 20+. The results would have been catastrophic.

[jwood01]

I have only read ToM once. Do we know that Rand has sent no aide by the time he meets the border landers?

 

If we don't know, maybe help has been sent after the BT was dealt with? Logain and a bunch of ashaman, dedicated and soldiers saving the day would be awesome.

 

Too bad Mat isn't there with the horn. Watching Lan's rag-tag force charge alongsude the Heros of the horn against 200K trollocs would be epic!

[Knivy]

Well, I'm sure borderlander commanders have some experience using Aes Sedai in their battles. When Moraine and the clan reach the borderlands, before striking out at the Eye, the way the borderlanders try to convince Moraine to stay and help them at the Gap seems to convey the idea that it isnt uncommon for AS to assist in raids/battles/things.

[Maleshub]

Well, I'm sure borderlander commanders have some experience using Aes Sedai in their battles. When Moraine and the clan reach the borderlands, before striking out at the Eye, the way the borderlanders try to convince Moraine to stay and help them at the Gap seems to convey the idea that it isnt uncommon for AS to assist in raids/battles/things.

 

True, since fighting against Shadowspawn doesn't break the three oaths. In addition, Aes Sedai's last "battle" is presumably the Aiel War, which reached all the way to the Shining Walls. In New Spring, we get a sense of "state of emergency" with sisters helping in the fighting (whether through combat or healing." And Saerin's point of defense in the WT shows that Aes Sedai have a "Military Doctrine" they revert to when they can find sensible leaders.

 

Still, their battle experience is severely lacking. For example, take the Seanchan raid on the WT. Prior to the raid, Elaida and her faction, including Captain Chubain, knew that the rebel army had Traveling. The defense of Tar Valon should have been prepared for the sudden appearance of enemies within the city's walls. And when an enemy does suddenly appear, the Tower Guards and Aes Sedai run around like chickens with their heads cut off till Egwene and Saerin organize the defensive points.

[muddasssir]

they have no battle experience but you have to remember that they are the most apt people in the use of one power this side of aryth ocean. So, for light to succeed they have to get their act together and that also quickly. one thing that really can help them is the fact that one of tyhe great captains is leading their defense and if Rodel is any indication to go by. seanchan or whoever attacks might chew off more than they had bargained for. They are planning a full scale attack with no prior knowledge of his abiklities and tactics so even without Mat it is going to ba a very interesting battle for the shining walls. Because for life of me I cannot imagine that one of tyhe great captains would not take precautions now that they suspect that Seanchan have traveling.

[Suttree]

Still, their battle experience is severely lacking. For example, take the Seanchan raid on the WT. Prior to the raid, Elaida and her faction, including Captain Chubain, knew that the rebel army had Traveling. The defense of Tar Valon should have been prepared for the sudden appearance of enemies within the city's walls. And when an enemy does suddenly appear, the Tower Guards and Aes Sedai run around like chickens with their heads cut off till Egwene and Saerin organize the defensive points.

 

You have to keep in mind at the time Elaida's poor leadership and Fain's influence had each Ajah totally separate, to the point that sisters who walked in the wrong area were being attacked. We can't glean much of anything from a surprise aerial attack against a WT in those circumstances.

[Maleshub]

they have no battle experience but you have to remember that they are the most apt people in the use of one power this side of aryth ocean. So, for light to succeed they have to get their act together and that also quickly. one thing that really can help them is the fact that one of tyhe great captains is leading their defense and if Rodel is any indication to go by. seanchan or whoever attacks might chew off more than they had bargained for. They are planning a full scale attack with no prior knowledge of his abiklities and tactics so even without Mat it is going to ba a very interesting battle for the shining walls. Because for life of me I cannot imagine that one of tyhe great captains would not take precautions now that they suspect that Seanchan have traveling.

 

May I reference that for a future Egwene discussion It would probably answer a question or two posed by Egwene critics

 

Still, their battle experience is severely lacking. For example, take the Seanchan raid on the WT. Prior to the raid, Elaida and her faction, including Captain Chubain, knew that the rebel army had Traveling. The defense of Tar Valon should have been prepared for the sudden appearance of enemies within the city's walls. And when an enemy does suddenly appear, the Tower Guards and Aes Sedai run around like chickens with their heads cut off till Egwene and Saerin organize the defensive points.

 

You have to keep in mind at the time Elaida's poor leadership and Fain's influence had each Ajah totally separate, to the point that sisters who walked in the wrong area were being attacked. We can't glean much of anything from a surprise aerial attack against a WT in those circumstances.

 

The emphasis was on "Elaida and her faction, including Captain Chubain, knew that the rebel army had Traveling. The defense of Tar Valon should have been prepared for the sudden appearance of enemies within the city's walls."

 

They had a few hundred Aes Sedai and 50K troops defending against a besieging army that had Traveling. Their military doctrine should have prepared them for the eventuality of the besiegers using Traveling to storm the Tower. But they weren't prepared.

[Suttree]

They had a few hundred Aes Sedai and 50K troops defending against a besieging army that had Traveling. Their military doctrine should have prepared them for the eventuality of the besiegers using Traveling to storm the Tower. But they weren't prepared.

 

You still haven't explained how sisters who had not dealt with anyone outside of their ajah for some time, to the point that each one was basically a separate armed encampment within a split WT, would all of a sudden work together to repel a heretofore unheard of aerial attack? All of this while being influenced by the power that caused Aridhol to turn on itself.

 

Also seeing as how travelling was just rediscovered what military doctrine would that be that had plans for that eventuality?