Gateways and Deathgates

[a5m]

You're right, and I forgot that Satelle Anan couldn't feel anything through the a'dam where Suian/Lelaine could.

Where was that decided? When Satelle used the a'dam, we were reading Mat's point of view. From that PoV, we don't know if Satelle could field anything or not.

[Arath Faringal]

A couple other points that have been brought up.

 

I'm pretty convinced that the back end of a deathgate has to be in motion as well, in order to obey laws of conservation of energy. Say the deathgate runs over a rock. That rock has no kinetic energy. The deathgate passes over it in the full open state, so the rock passes through unscathed, but how does it pass through? Unless the gate somehow transfers kinetic energy into the rock and propels it through the other side, spontaneously generating a lot of energy in the process, the back end has to be moving at an speed equal to the front.

 

As for the shifting location, I seem to recall that when you were rebuilding the gateway from the residues of another, you had to copy the weave exactly, and it had to be on the exact same location. Duplicating the weave exactly but shifting the location only few feet away could result in a gateway to a very different destination. That would be why deathgates shift to a new destination every time. The weave is exactly the same, but since it's sliding along a linear path, sitting in a different spot every time it flashes open, the exit is in a random spot.

 

I also believe that it is the motion of the deathgate itself that causes the open/close effect. Like was mentioned before, men travel by pulling two points of the pattern together and boring a hole. If you keep shifting one end of the pattern around, the gateway will destabalize and close itself. The modification of a gateway to create a deathgate forces it to reopen until the weave unravels. Simply a feature of the weave, not necessarily one designed into it.

 

An additional question. Assuming that you can indeed fix a gateway to a moving location, such as the deck of a ship, can you attach the other end as well? Technically speaking, there isn't even a weave to attach before the gateway is opened, so how would you fix it in place on the back end?

[Suttree]

You're right, and I forgot that Satelle Anan couldn't feel anything through the a'dam where Suian/Lelaine could.

Where was that decided? When Satelle used the a'dam, we were reading Mat's point of view. From that PoV, we don't know if Satelle could field anything or not.

 

She couldn't feel anyting becuase being burned out is different from being stilled. Those who are stilled can still sense the True Source while those who are burned out can not.

[TootThatHorn]

A couple other points that have been brought up.

 

I'm pretty convinced that the back end of a deathgate has to be in motion as well, in order to obey laws of conservation of energy. Say the deathgate runs over a rock. That rock has no kinetic energy. The deathgate passes over it in the full open state, so the rock passes through unscathed, but how does it pass through? Unless the gate somehow transfers kinetic energy into the rock and propels it through the other side, spontaneously generating a lot of energy in the process, the back end has to be moving at an speed equal to the front.

 

As for the shifting location, I seem to recall that when you were rebuilding the gateway from the residues of another, you had to copy the weave exactly, and it had to be on the exact same location. Duplicating the weave exactly but shifting the location only few feet away could result in a gateway to a very different destination. That would be why deathgates shift to a new destination every time. The weave is exactly the same, but since it's sliding along a linear path, sitting in a different spot every time it flashes open, the exit is in a random spot.

 

I also believe that it is the motion of the deathgate itself that causes the open/close effect. Like was mentioned before, men travel by pulling two points of the pattern together and boring a hole. If you keep shifting one end of the pattern around, the gateway will destabalize and close itself. The modification of a gateway to create a deathgate forces it to reopen until the weave unravels. Simply a feature of the weave, not necessarily one designed into it.

 

An additional question. Assuming that you can indeed fix a gateway to a moving location, such as the deck of a ship, can you attach the other end as well? Technically speaking, there isn't even a weave to attach before the gateway is opened, so how would you fix it in place on the back end?

taking the exit gate in to consideration you would assume that yes it has to move to, which goes with somethiing i thought before, why not try to have both gateways running through the trolloc ranks...dont know if its possible but if it was then there is twice the killing force and heaps of bodies to trip over...also on the note of laws, where does the cutting from a gateway happen? is it a perfect dissection on a molecular level or is there a removal of flesh along the edge of the gateway, because that then defies the law of conservation of matter

[a5m]

She couldn't feel anyting becuase being burned out is different from being stilled. Those who are stilled can still sense the True Source while those who are burned out can not.

I didn't ask for an opinion. I ask where it stated that she couldn't feel anything. Do you have a reference or a spot in the books I missed?

[Suttree]

She couldn't feel anyting becuase being burned out is different from being stilled. Those who are stilled can still sense the True Source while those who are burned out can not.

I didn't ask for an opinion. I ask where it stated that she couldn't feel anything. Do you have a reference or a spot in the books I missed?

 

As I'm sure you know having been on these boards for some time it has never been explcitly stated. It really isn't hard to connect the dots however. Not everything should need to be spelled out and this scene is quite clear. The reaction is extreme and very different from Siuan and Leane. What is the difference between them? Stilling verse being burned out. One can still sense the source while the other can't. You can split hairs all you want over "feeling" but it is quite evident it worked for one and not the other.

 

WH. Ch. 29

"Testing?" he said, and those hazel eyes gave him a withering look.

"Not every woman can be a sui'dam. You should know that by now. I have hopes that I can, but better we find out before the last hour." Scowling at the stubbornly closed bracelet, she turned it in her hands. "Do you know how to open this thing? I cannot even find where it opens."...

Snapping the bracelet around her wrist, Setalle looped the leash in coils on her forearm, then held up the open collar. Joline stared it with loathing, her hands tightening into fists gripping her skirts.

"Do you want to escape?" the innkeeper asked quietly.

After a moment, Joline straightened and lifted her chin. Setalle closed the collar around the Aes Sedai's neck with the same crisp snap it had made opening. He must have been wrong about the size; it fit her quite snugly atop the high neck of her dress. Joline's mouth twitched, that was all, but Mat could almost feel Blaeric and Fen tensing behind him. He held his breath.

Side by side, the two women took a small step, brushing by Mat, and he began to breathe. Joline frowned uncertainly. Then they took a second step.

With a cry, the Aes Sedai fell to the floor, writhing in agony. She could not form words, only increasingly louder moans. She huddled in on herself, her arms and legs and even her fingers twitching and crooking at odd angles.

Setalle dropped to her knees as soon as Joline hit the floor, her hands going to the collar, but she was no quicker than Blaeric and Fen, though their actions did seem odd. Kneeling, Blaeric raised a wailing Joline and supported her against his chest while he began to massage her neck, of all things. Fen worked his fingers along her arms. The collar came loose, and Setalle fell back on her heels, but Joline continued to jerk and whimper, and her Warders continued to work over her as though trying to rub away cramps. They shot cold stares at Mat as though it were all his fault.

[Knivy]

Just to throw this in, it may or may not be true, but Moghedien says...

TSR: Into the Palace

 

Nynaeve let her legs sag. Dropping the feather duster, she caught hold of the pedestal to support herself. There was very little fakery needed.

 

Moghedien smiled and took a step nearer. "... travel to other worlds, even worlds in the sky. Do you know that the stars are..."

 

If they traveled to other worlds, inside the same "world" (as in, not a mirror or TAR kind of thing) there must be a way to travel without knowing exact location, making traveling to another ship a piece of cake, relatively.

 

What I think is that you could attach the gateway to a thread in the pattern, since everything has a thread. Traveling, for men at least, is done by bending the pattern, so all you would have to do is keep the gateway open and have the threads move relative to each other, yet the pattern would be constantly folding and warping to keep the gateway open.

 

EDIT: On deathgates. I was of the opinion that it is a one-way kind of thing. Maybe it opened to a skimming portal thing, where you fall forever, but i doubt that they have another opening in Randland.

you have to know your location well, not the target location.

 

but for men if you want to visualize the theory in travelling, take a piece of paper bend it so that two points touch, and put a pin through it. Now try to move one side. That is what would happen, you would start tearing the pattern, instead of making a small impact you would make a very large one

The thread's location wouldn't change, just relative position. The hole would stay in the same place, but the shape of the bent area would change, so the pattern would bend more or less to keep the two threads in the same relative location.

 

Thanks for the deathgate and traveling to other worlds quotes. I wonder if it would be easier just to travel to TAR, just shift yourself to whatever distant planet, then exit TAR. Has there been anything that suggests that it takes more strength to travel greater distances in TAR? Or does that not work when you are truely there?

[TristanWebb]

Egwene had to ride Bela when she was in TAR in the flesh, but Egwene being Egwene she probably just didn't think to shift herself there. Rand runs everywhere when we actually see him in TAR, but that is when he doesn't know what he is doing. The Forsaken can appear/vanish at will but it is never known if they are there in the flesh or not.

[Maleshub]

Egwene had to ride Bela when she was in TAR in the flesh, but Egwene being Egwene she probably just didn't think to shift herself there. Rand runs everywhere when we actually see him in TAR, but that is when he doesn't know what he is doing. The Forsaken can appear/vanish at will but it is never known if they are there in the flesh or not.

 

When a person is in TAR in the flesh, can he or she do what he can do if there only in a dream? I don't remember if there are instances where someone in TAR in the flesh was doing what Perrin was doing after hopper trained him to do. There might be a different set of rules for the state of the entrant to TAR.

[TristanWebb]

When you enter in the flesh you are more restricted, it is said more than once. Nynaeve and Moghedien during Rand's fight with Ravin is probably the easiest reference to find. There is nothing to say what you can or can't do in the flesh, but you are more powerful in some ways and less in others, just not sure what those ways are. It could be that you can't just imagine yourself somewhere else, it could be that people believe you can't so don't try.

[Maleshub]

When you enter in the flesh you are more restricted, it is said more than once. Nynaeve and Moghedien during Rand's fight with Ravin is probably the easiest reference to find. There is nothing to say what you can or can't do in the flesh, but you are more powerful in some ways and less in others, just not sure what those ways are. It could be that you can't just imagine yourself somewhere else, it could be that people believe you can't so don't try.

 

Did Nynaeve and Moghedien enter TaR in the flesh during the scene?

[Sheepherder]

When you enter in the flesh you are more restricted, it is said more than once. Nynaeve and Moghedien during Rand's fight with Ravin is probably the easiest reference to find. There is nothing to say what you can or can't do in the flesh, but you are more powerful in some ways and less in others, just not sure what those ways are. It could be that you can't just imagine yourself somewhere else, it could be that people believe you can't so don't try.

 

Did Nynaeve and Moghedien enter TaR in the flesh during the scene?

 

No, Rand and Ravin were there in the flesh and that fact terrified Moggy

 

Her explanation of what coming in the flesh meant

 

Why will you not understand what I tell you? Even if they had only dreamed themselves here, either would be stronger than we. Here in the flesh , they could crush us without blinking. In the flesh they can draw saidin more deeply than we can draw saidar dreaming.

[TommyRocker]

I think one question is, Does the weaver "code" the gateway from Point A to Point B, relative to the already moving Earth, or is the gateway "coded" from Point A to a coordinate relative to Point A? Or is the Gateway "coded" to two points relative to each other without one being A or B? If A and B are "coded" into the weave, then I think for the gateway to move relative to Earth it would have to be "recoded" on the fly. The channeler would have to change the points as he/she moves the gateway, which would be pretty insane, especially with people walking through. And then, there's the question of if you walk through a moving gateway, wouldn't you come out in front of it, with this gateway now coming at you?

[TristanWebb]

Thinking about it more, I think the movements of celestial bodies are part of the pattern. Rand says he folds the pattern and makes a hole, Egwene says she makes the two points identical. So while the Earth is spinning the pattern has taken that into account and knows where all the threads still are. To make a gateway move you would presumably have to make constant adjustments. I would think this would be easier for Saidar, making a moving point the same as another place, than Saidin, moving your fold of the pattern and the hole.

[Aulduron]

t would be awesome to open a gateway to the bottom of the ocean and have all that pressure spewing out on to an army of trollocs, then start firing lightning bolts at them.

 

What a great idea!

[Mhaliah]

Gate ways do not have to be fixed. I recall, vaguely, a reference to a gate being woven to an Atha'an Miere ship where the gateway was made just above the deck of the ship. This gate is fixed in position but is not "attached" to anything. Deathgates are also effective because of the cutting done by the edges, this could kill the shadow spawn that are not affected by travelling through a gateway (i.e. the gholam that was set to target Matrim passes through the gateway), or dark friends in the ranks with shadow spawn. The main reason for have a gateway no move is to prevent this loss of life and damage to property.

 

One wonderes is gateways woven of the True Power would allow shadow spawn to travel?

[baalsmistress]

t would be awesome to open a gateway to the bottom of the ocean and have all that pressure spewing out on to an army of trollocs, then start firing lightning bolts at them.

 

What a great idea!

 

If you're going to do that, why not open it into the center of the earth and have superhot magma pour onto them

[Aulduron]

Because the water should eventually drain away.

[rand4747]

One wonderes is gateways woven of the True Power would allow shadow spawn to travel?

 

They still pass outside the pattern so will die I think.

[Vardar]

One wonderes is gateways woven of the True Power would allow shadow spawn to travel?

 

They still pass outside the pattern so will die I think.

 

Doesn't the TP burn a hole through the pattern? So are they really passing through the pattern?

[RandA lThor]

But to pass through, I think you still pass out of it at some point.

[Suttree]

One wonderes is gateways woven of the True Power would allow shadow spawn to travel?

 

They still pass outside the pattern so will die I think.

 

Doesn't the TP burn a hole through the pattern? So are they really passing through the pattern?

 

Yes the TP rips a whole in the pattern. I would assume they are still passing through howoever.

[Sharaman]

Quantum entanglement? Not necessary to pass through the intervening space.

[RandA lThor]

Quantum entanglement? Not necessary to pass through the intervening space.

 

What is quantum entanglement?

[Sheepherder]

Quantum entanglement? Not necessary to pass through the intervening space.

 

What is quantum entanglement?

 

For certain subatomic particles (or groups of them) they can be "entangled" by causing them to interact with each other and then measuring certain aspects of their current state. If you then seperate them and change the state of one it will instantaneously change the state of the other, no matter the distance. I'm no expert but I think that is the gist of it. I'm sure you could get a more detailed description on wiki.