Who is the most underrated Character in WoT?

[OptimusPrime]

Cenn Buie

[Elan Tedronai]

Has to be Talmanes or logain.

 

Unfortunately two ruined characters by inept sanderson by turning the former into an unfunny robot and cleansing the latter from the last 2 books. But he had time to put in tea drinking and smooth skirting morgase chapters.

[Maleshub]

Has to be Talmanes or logain.

 

Unfortunately two ruined characters by inept sanderson by turning the former into an unfunny robot and cleansing the latter from the last 2 books. But he had time to put in tea drinking and smooth skirting morgase chapters.

 

Talmanes has played a significant role off-screen with shadowing Egwene's army, deal with Roedran, and sneaking into Altara to give Mat the tool of his escape from the Seanchan. So, he's one of the underrated heroes. But I don't know if Sanderson ruined him. He wasn't robotic when he pulled Mat's leg when he saw him worried over Tuon. I thought that was funny. And I don't think he could have played a bigger role in the last two books. Anyway, he's set to lead the first stage of Caemlyn's defense. That will be epic! And he might end up bonded to an Aes Sedai to save his life. Maybe Joline will be there to bond him. But that would be a loss to the Band if he gives it up to become Joline's warder.

[Bromo Sapien]

The completely loyal characters like Talmanes and Dobraine are often the ones I think of as the most underrated. You know they're going to be Mat/Rand's side forever so you just put them out of your mind since there's no worry there. Both are wicked badasss and awesome.

 

Going in the complete opposite direction of total loyalty, I think Gawyn is possibly the most underrated character by both the fandom and in-story. Guy is an elite blademaster (not Rand/Galad/Lan level, but the next best probably) and yet Elaida tried to have him and the Younglings who supported her killed numerous times. When he went back to help Egwene and the rebels, Bryne treated him like he was still his young pupil. Even the woman who loves him doesn't seem to grasp his badassery even after taking out all the Bloodknives.

 

Within the fan community, I have seen more hatred without support for Gawyn than any other character. Even Sanderson seems to be in on the hate a bit from the way he wrote him in the last few books (the Bryne scene could be related to this). If everyone in the world said someone killed your mother, wouldn't you harbor some hatred towards him? And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back. Us readers see everything that happens and see the big picture; we sometimes forget that not all characters do. For the information he had at the time, he made the right call at every juncture and is incredibly badass to boot. #GawynforPres

[Durinax]

The completely loyal characters like Talmanes and Dobraine are often the ones I think of as the most underrated. You know they're going to be Mat/Rand's side forever so you just put them out of your mind since there's no worry there. Both are wicked badasss and awesome.

 

Going in the complete opposite direction of total loyalty, I think Gawyn is possibly the most underrated character by both the fandom and in-story. Guy is an elite blademaster (not Rand/Galad/Lan level, but the next best probably) and yet Elaida tried to have him and the Younglings who supported her killed numerous times. When he went back to help Egwene and the rebels, Bryne treated him like he was still his young pupil. Even the woman who loves him doesn't seem to grasp his badassery even after taking out all the Bloodknives.

 

Within the fan community, I have seen more hatred without support for Gawyn than any other character. Even Sanderson seems to be in on the hate a bit from the way he wrote him in the last few books (the Bryne scene could be related to this). If everyone in the world said someone killed your mother, wouldn't you harbor some hatred towards him? And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back. Us readers see everything that happens and see the big picture; we sometimes forget that not all characters do. For the information he had at the time, he made the right call at every juncture and is incredibly badass to boot. #GawynforPres

actually the bryne scene was one that was very well written, Bryne saw him (and quite obviously) as the enemy commander and an upstart nobleman who didn't want to wait his turn in line. Then he treats Gawyn like any military general should have, with uncertainty and distrust which for bryne meant reverting to when gawyn wasn't sure of himself on the outside (while during that time he was mostly uncertain on the inside)

[Suttree]

If everyone in the world said someone killed your mother, wouldn't you harbor some hatred towards him?

 

But that's just the thing, even after he knew it wasn't necesarily the case he continues to do so...

 

And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back.

 

What duty would that be? He was a foreign prince training in Andor as a guest.

[Bromo Sapien]

Gawyn was always rational in the early books. As much as you could disagree with his decision, you can't say that siding with the Tower wasn't rational. That scene made Gawyn seem like a petulant boy. That was actually one of the few annoyances I had with tGS and Brandon's writing. And Bryne treats him that way. Bryne calls his equal "young man", a "spoiled princeling", "boy" numeroous times, "lad"... you get the point. Those aren't the words of a man speaking to an enemy commander. Those are the words of a former teacher to a ex-pupil. And severely lacking in the respect Gawyn deserves.

 

TBH, Bryne does end up showing Gawyn more respect than most, but he still shows him less than he deserves.

[Durinax]

[

And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back.

 

What duty would that be? He was a foreign prince training in Andor as a guest.

I think that anyone training during a strike or assault on the tower automatically has to fight on one side or the other type deal. And technically at that point he was a warder in training, so he had a duty to the WT

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thing is about the tGS Gawyn, he IS a spoilt boy, he is acting irrationally at that point, all through tGS and ToM he acts like a headstrong boy.

 

Now, that does not take away from his earlier actions. I agree that siding with Elaida was rational for Gawyn, there are several reasons.

 

1. As mentioned, the deposing of Suian was technically legal. Enough sitters approved it, and Gawyn hardly could have known that Mesaana and the Black Ajah made it dodgy. Nor would he know the intricacies of Tower Law in regards to the minimum sitters, and how it was dodgy.

 

2. Elaida, for all her later faults and insanity, was not exactly irrational in her decision. Helped along by the Shadow surely, but Suian has no doubt that her actions with Rand would lead to her deposition and stilling. The shady way which it was done was the problem, one which Gawyn need not have known just how shady it was.

 

3. Elaida was Morgase's Aes Sedai advisor. Gawyn had grown up with her, and she wasn't as crazy as she became in the later books. He had reason to trust her more than any other Aes Sedai and less reason to trust Suian.

 

4. Which leads to the main reason for his actions. He was pretty pissed at Suian, as was Morgase, she was about to cut long standing ties between Andor and Tar Valon before this. Because Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve went "missing" and Suian wouldn't answer. It is fair enough for the readers, who know what actually happened, but for Gawyn, it would be a big deal. Sneaky AS kidnapping the DH of Andor. Who knew what had happened to her?

 

 

Having said that, I don't think that Gawyn is underrated overall. For all his rationality pre-Rhavin, he IS a spoilt, angry noble kid. His ability at warfare does not make him wise, nor a rational man. For example, look to Lord Bashere's example of the mad General who was a brilliant commander, but was mad as Ishamael. From LoC on, he is an irrational, immature boy. That is what Byrne sees and rightly calls him up on. Gawyn demands respect because he is an opposing General and could best Byrne with the blade. Byrne however, realises that these do not make a wise or worthy man.

[Maleshub]

1- The completely loyal characters like Talmanes and Dobraine are often the ones I think of as the most underrated. You know they're going to be Mat/Rand's side forever so you just put them out of your mind since there's no worry there. Both are wicked badasss and awesome.

 

2- Going in the complete opposite direction of total loyalty, I think Gawyn is possibly the most underrated character by both the fandom and in-story. Guy is an elite blademaster (not Rand/Galad/Lan level, but the next best probably) and yet Elaida tried to have him and the Younglings who supported her killed numerous times. When he went back to help Egwene and the rebels, Bryne treated him like he was still his young pupil. Even the woman who loves him doesn't seem to grasp his badassery even after taking out all the Bloodknives.

 

Within the fan community, I have seen more hatred without support for Gawyn than any other character. Even Sanderson seems to be in on the hate a bit from the way he wrote him in the last few books (the Bryne scene could be related to this). If everyone in the world said someone killed your mother, wouldn't you harbor some hatred towards him? And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back. Us readers see everything that happens and see the big picture; we sometimes forget that not all characters do. For the information he had at the time, he made the right call at every juncture and is incredibly badass to boot. #GawynforPres

 

I totally agree with No. 1. And the evidence is how Rand treats Dobraine. The man's loyalty was rewarded with belittling Dobraine and his role. It is a wonder why the man doesn't simply retire to his estates in Cairhien for being so "appreciated!" But he's too honorable for that; and I hope that we see some retribution for him in the last book.

 

No. 2 is an interesting take on Gawyn. I'll start with Min's viewing on him being hurt deep down inside from the events of Siuan's deposing. That meant, to me, that he was psychologically scarred by the event, traumatized if the term applies.

 

Discussing that starts with his alleged duty to the Tower. I see his duty to the Tower less than Laras' "Mistress of the Kitchens" (seriously and without sarcasm). She stayed out of it. And so should have the students. The conflict was Aes Sedai business; and warders were drawn into it because of their bonds to the Aes Sedai. And the books show us that about a third of Aes Sedai decided to stay out of the Tower split till it was resolved. If Aes Sedai thought they didn't have to take part in that conflict, why did Gawyn take part? Other than his frustration with Siuan Sanche for hiding Elayne's whereabouts from him, what justification does Gawyn Tarkand have for killing his teacher, Hammar Gaidin?

 

As to saying that Gawyn is Bryne's counterpart, the latter holds the titles of "Captain-General of the Queen's Guards" and "First Prince Regent" in Andor. He served three Queens, two as Captain – General; and is a symbol of Andor. He is one of the Great Captains. He is Gawyn's mentor and teacher. I don't think Gawyn can compete with that.

 

But in the meeting in Bryne's camp, we have Bryne leading an army of 50K troops besieging Tar Valon; and Gawyn a leader of a harrying force of 300 Younglings. That can hardly be comparable.

 

Gawyn was always rational in the early books. As much as you could disagree with his decision, you can't say that siding with the Tower wasn't rational. That scene made Gawyn seem like a petulant boy. That was actually one of the few annoyances I had with tGS and Brandon's writing. And Bryne treats him that way. Bryne calls his equal "young man", a "spoiled princeling", "boy" numeroous times, "lad"... you get the point. Those aren't the words of a man speaking to an enemy commander. Those are the words of a former teacher to a ex-pupil. And severely lacking in the respect Gawyn deserves.

 

TBH, Bryne does end up showing Gawyn more respect than most, but he still shows him less than he deserves.

 

But we know that Gawyn was belligerent in his request to meet Bryne. He assaulted Bryne's troops. From a military perspective, Bryne had the right to imprison Gawyn since he didn't come to his camp under a white flag and because of his assault on Bryne's troops.

 

Reading Gawyn after his meeting with Bryne just shows how disturbed the former was. Even he admits it to himself. Bryne did him a favor by giving him advice that helped him get his life back on track. Prior to meeting Bryne, Gawyn was a wreck! He had forsaken his oaths to Elayne and Andor for Egwene; yet he did not accept Egwene as Amyrlin and only saw her as the Accepted.

 

One of the best Elayne scenes in the books is how she dealt with Gawyn during his few days in Caemlyn. She saw deep down inside him; and diagnosed his situation and personality perfectly. She saw that his hatred for Rand was nothing but jealousy and envy, nothing to do with Morgase's alleged murder. She even relieved him of his duties as First Prince of the Sword "to allow him time to sort things out." (My hunch is that she saw him unfit for the office; but that's just me).

 

Gawyn is a badass warder; but that's all he is good for. Anything else is beyond his abilities and personality.

 

[

And as far as he knew, the rebellion in the tower was completely unlawful. By law, as far as anyone knew at that point, Siuan was deposed and Elaida was Amyrilin. Gawyn was doing his just duty by fighting back.

 

What duty would that be? He was a foreign prince training in Andor as a guest.

I think that anyone training during a strike or assault on the tower automatically has to fight on one side or the other type deal. And technically at that point he was a warder in training, so he had a duty to the WT

 

Actually, Gawyn was training in Tar Valon as part of Andor's tradition of training the Daughter Heir and First Prince of the Sword. He knew that he wasn't going to be a warder. As to his duty, I've commented on it above. It was his frustration, not duty that led him to do what he did. Yet, when he caught Siuan, Leane, and Min he abandoned his duty to the Tower by allowing the traitor to leave. How does that add up?

[Suttree]

Actually, Gawyn was training in Tar Valon as part of Andor's tradition of training the Daughter Heir and First Prince of the Sword. He knew that he wasn't going to be a warder. As to his duty, I've commented on it above. It was his frustration, not duty that led him to do what he did. Yet, when he caught Siuan, Leane, and Min he abandoned his duty to the Tower by allowing the traitor to leave. How does that add up?

 

Well said...

[Bromo Sapien]

Discussing that starts with his alleged duty to the Tower. I see his duty to the Tower less than Laras' "Mistress of the Kitchens" (seriously and without sarcasm). She stayed out of it. And so should have the students. The conflict was Aes Sedai business; and warders were drawn into it because of their bonds to the Aes Sedai. And the books show us that about a third of Aes Sedai decided to stay out of the Tower split till it was resolved. If Aes Sedai thought they didn't have to take part in that conflict, why did Gawyn take part? Other than his frustration with Siuan Sanche for hiding Elayne's whereabouts from him, what justification does Gawyn Tarkand have for killing his teacher, Hammar Gaidin?

Gawyn had been raised to respect Aes Sedai second only to the Queen of Andor herself. To him, rebelling against them would be nothing short of treason. Hammar was directly trying to free a deposed Amyrlin. He may not have had a legal right, but he had more than enough of a moral right to join in. And the Aes Sedai who stood aside were already outside the Tower when it happened. Everyone in the tower at the time took some part, even Laras and the Guardsmen. With a battle raging around, you can’t “stand aside”.

 

As to saying that Gawyn is Bryne's counterpart, the latter holds the titles of "Captain-General of the Queen's Guards" and "First Prince Regent" in Andor. He served three Queens, two as Captain – General; and is a symbol of Andor. He is one of the Great Captains. He is Gawyn's mentor and teacher. I don't think Gawyn can compete with that.

 

But in the meeting in Bryne's camp, we have Bryne leading an army of 50K troops besieging Tar Valon; and Gawyn a leader of a harrying force of 300 Younglings. That can hardly be comparable.

That doesn’t matter when it comes to defining the enemy commander. Bryne may be more powerful than Gawyn, but the Younglings had been doing some serious damage and were the main military force opposing Bryne’s army at the time. At the very least, Gawyn deserves some measure of respect from Bryne for that fact alone. Even if he isn’t as great a general as Bryne (and as you mentioned, he’s a Great Captain; right now there’s only four others who could compete with him), he is still the enemy commander.

 

But we know that Gawyn was belligerent in his request to meet Bryne. He assaulted Bryne's troops. From a military perspective, Bryne had the right to imprison Gawyn since he didn't come to his camp under a white flag and because of his assault on Bryne's troops.

The troops were literally about to attack. “’If you’re going to be in our camp,’ the soldier interrupted, stepping forward, ‘you’re going to have to learn how to do what you’re told.’… The soldier laid a hand on his sword.” Gawyn walked in, announced who is was, and repeatedly tried to talk his way to Bryne. It

was the idiot soldiers who forced him into attacking. He ended the fight but he didn’t start it. He didn’t have a technical white flag, but his words were peaceful.

He had forsaken his oaths to Elayne and Andor for Egwene; yet he did not accept Egwene as Amyrlin and only saw her as the Accepted.

Again, that’s rational for him. We know Egwene manipulated her way to being an awesome Amyrlin, but would you believe an Accepted had been raised Amyrlin to be anything more than a figurehead, especially only a short time after she was one, for all intents and purposes? And forsaking the oaths of Andor, this is one of the few times when the Dragon Reborn breaking all oaths actually works. The Last Battle and supporting one of the most important groups for that battle is more important than Andor. He chose his moral duty to help the world over his political duty. I’ve heard a lot of people complain about him not helping in the Succession, but for me, supporting the Aes Sedai against an illegal rebel group with an army is more important, especially considering how well Elayne handled it. Plus, he would have assumed there would be no Succession since Elayne was Daughter Heir. By the time he heard and returned, it would have been over.

 

One of the best Elayne scenes in the books is how she dealt with Gawyn during his few days in Caemlyn. She saw deep down inside him; and diagnosed his situation and personality perfectly. She saw that his hatred for Rand was nothing but jealousy and envy, nothing to do with Morgase's alleged murder. She even relieved him of his duties as First Prince of the Sword "to allow him time to sort things out." (My hunch is that she saw him unfit for the office; but that's just me).

 

Gawyn is a badass warder; but that's all he is good for. Anything else is beyond his abilities and personality.

Again, I pin this on BS’s dislike of Gawyn, which he has admitted. The arguments he makes about his hatred towards Rand fit much more in line with the character, imo. He killed Morgase, he was a tyrant conquering the world, people who claimed they supported him were attacking innocent people, a madman had been raising a crazy army of zealots, and was destined to destroy the world. I saw no jealousy in him, only a rational fear of Rand. I always though RJ wrote Gawyn to show that it wasn’t just the peasants who heard the infinite rumors surrounding Rand and how it affected them. BS just made him into an irrational fool.

 

Yet, when he caught Siuan, Leane, and Min he abandoned his duty to the Tower by allowing the traitor to leave. How does that add up?

This is again about Gawyn’s moral code of loyalty. Min holds more loyalty to him than the Tower as a friend. So does Egwene, which is why he abandoned the Younglings to try to save her, and Elayne, outside her title. With Min asking him for help and adding on the words of the two women he loves most, he chose them over the Tower. It’s pretty simple: he has more loyalty to his friends and family than to the Tower.

[Maleshub]

Actually, Gawyn was training in Tar Valon as part of Andor's tradition of training the Daughter Heir and First Prince of the Sword. He knew that he wasn't going to be a warder. As to his duty, I've commented on it above. It was his frustration, not duty that led him to do what he did. Yet, when he caught Siuan, Leane, and Min he abandoned his duty to the Tower by allowing the traitor to leave. How does that add up?

 

Well said...

 

Thank you

 

Gawyn had been raised to respect Aes Sedai second only to the Queen of Andor herself. To him, rebelling against them would be nothing short of treason. Hammar was directly trying to free a deposed Amyrlin. He may not have had a legal right, but he had more than enough of a moral right to join in. And the Aes Sedai who stood aside were already outside the Tower when it happened. Everyone in the tower at the time took some part, even Laras and the Guardsmen. With a battle raging around, you can’t “stand aside”.

 

First off, what are your thoughts on Min's viewing of Gawyn being hurt deep down as a result of the fighting in the Tower?

 

Gawyn was raised to serve Andor and be his sister's First Prince of the Sword. The alliance with the White Tower is part of Andor's tradition; but it isn't part of their "national anthem." I don't recall any indication in the books that Andorans respected Aes Sedai second only to the Queen. On the contrary, the majority of Andorans seemed to think that their troubles come from their ties to the White Tower.

 

Gawyn could have stood aside. But he chose to participate. He was not under any obligation; and my opinion is that his frustration with Siuan is what pushed him over the edge.

 

That doesn’t matter when it comes to defining the enemy commander. Bryne may be more powerful than Gawyn, but the Younglings had been doing some serious damage and were the main military force opposing Bryne’s army at the time. At the very least, Gawyn deserves some measure of respect from Bryne for that fact alone. Even if he isn’t as great a general as Bryne (and as you mentioned, he’s a Great Captain; right now there’s only four others who could compete with him), he is still the enemy commander.

 

The enemy commander, from Gareth Bryne's view, is High Captain Jimar Chubain. He was the commander of the White Towers "Tower Guard" consisting of approximately 50000 troops. Trying to paint Gawyn as the "enemy commander" is a stretch. He and his 300 Younglings were used as fodder by Elaida to harry Bryne's forces. It was Chubain's troops that prevented Bryne from riding into Tar Valon.

 

The troops were literally about to attack. “’If you’re going to be in our camp,’ the soldier interrupted, stepping forward, ‘you’re going to have to learn how to do what you’re told.’… The soldier laid a hand on his sword.” Gawyn walked in, announced who is was, and repeatedly tried to talk his way to Bryne. It

was the idiot soldiers who forced him into attacking. He ended the fight but he didn’t start it. He didn’t have a technical white flag, but his words were peaceful.

 

Simply, Gawyn didn't have the patience to wait for Bryne to come back to his command post (and he was assaulting the command post in view of the guards … you don't let unknown louts stand where the commander had his maps and papers … that's a big no no in military etiquette).

 

So, he made a fuss to bring Bryne to his command post. He hurt the guards and inflicted wounds on men simply doing their guard duty because of his impatience and impulsiveness.

 

A simple apology and moving away to a vantage point where he could see Bryne coming back would not have been too difficult.

 

Again, that’s rational for him. We know Egwene manipulated her way to being an awesome Amyrlin, but would you believe an Accepted had been raised Amyrlin to be anything more than a figurehead, especially only a short time after she was one, for all intents and purposes? And forsaking the oaths of Andor, this is one of the few times when the Dragon Reborn breaking all oaths actually works. The Last Battle and supporting one of the most important groups for that battle is more important than Andor. He chose his moral duty to help the world over his political duty. I’ve heard a lot of people complain about him not helping in the Succession, but for me, supporting the Aes Sedai against an illegal rebel group with an army is more important, especially considering how well Elayne handled it. Plus, he would have assumed there would be no Succession since Elayne was Daughter Heir. By the time he heard and returned, it would have been over.

 

He knows Elaida wants him dead; but he still serves her. He knows that his duty is to Elayne and Andor; but he cannot act on his duty. He loves Egwene but reinforces the perception that she is a puppet. That's a big mess of beliefs and contradictory actions.

 

The books make a big fuss about a man keeping his oaths. For example, take Lan and the oaths that were sworn on him when he was an infant. How well does Lan hold to them? How well does Mat hold to his oaths? How much does Bryne hold to them?

 

I'll just cite one example of Gawyn's priorities. You say that he choose to serve the Tower over Andor since that is for the good of the world. But when Egwene runs into him in Cairhien, he immediately dumps those oaths and expresses his willingness to betray everything for her. Did Gawyn throw the overall welfare of the world for a woman, who was a rebel and a friend of his mother's murderer?

 

Again, I pin this on BS’s dislike of Gawyn, which he has admitted. The arguments he makes about his hatred towards Rand fit much more in line with the character, imo. He killed Morgase, he was a tyrant conquering the world, people who claimed they supported him were attacking innocent people, a madman had been raising a crazy army of zealots, and was destined to destroy the world. I saw no jealousy in him, only a rational fear of Rand. I always though RJ wrote Gawyn to show that it wasn’t just the peasants who heard the infinite rumors surrounding Rand and how it affected them. BS just made him into an irrational fool.

 

There are different ways to read the scenes. But I don't see Gawyn showing rational fear of Rand. He was showing exceptional hatred. These are two different emotions. The nation of Illian saw Rand as savior for the good he's done them. Caemlyn, when Rand was there, was filling with people; and for every one who fled the city of fear of Rand, two came in to support him. The peasants in Tear regained their respect because of Rand's laws. The Aiel nation follows him with near total dedication. So, the negative rumors against Rand were balanced by the good he's done.

 

But the bottom line is that everyone knows that the Dragon Reborn is humanity's only chance against the DO. Everyone knows that; but Gawyn wanted to drive Rand through the heart regardless of the cost to humanity.

 

This is again about Gawyn’s moral code of loyalty. Min holds more loyalty to him than the Tower as a friend. So does Egwene, which is why he abandoned the Younglings to try to save her, and Elayne, outside her title. With Min asking him for help and adding on the words of the two women he loves most, he chose them over the Tower. It’s pretty simple: he has more loyalty to his friends and family than to the Tower.

 

That was actually an example of Gawyn's dual or even multiple moralities; and how quickly he's willing to jump from one wagon to the other. If his loyalty was to Min; then he could have let her go and arrested Siuan and Leane (the traitors).

 

The man didn't know what he wanted. Bryne helped him reach some semblance of balance in his life.

[Bromo Sapien]

Of course the fighting hurt him in a psychological way; he had to fight his teachers and come to an intensely complicated decision. And there's a difference between the Andoran people and the Andoran royal family, especially when it concerns Aes Sedai. The Andoran people may not trust them implicitly, but the Andoran family has always been the Aes Sedai's largest supporter. They had never not had an Aes Sedai advisor, a public advisor at that when most nations (such as Mayene) kept them hiddden, until Morgase banished Elaida in rage. Gawyn has a deep-rooted devotion to the White Tower. And again, he may have been able to stand aside if he were outside the Tower, but how can you ask him to stand there in the middle of the battle and do nothing. Every single other person in the Tower was in the middle of the battle. You can't reasonably expect him to just sit on his hands.

 

The guards weren't simply doing their duty. He came in, announced himself, and asked to be taken to Bryne. They didn't believe him and then attacked him. He defended himself. They literally laughed at him when he said he was Gawyn Trakand. And that was just at the edge of camp, not where Gawyn could reasonably have expected Gareth to randomly show up. It's a large camp with a large circumference. His plan was simply to go into camp and talk to Gareth. The guards messed that up and brought it upon themselves. They were the ones who made the mistakes, not him.

 

Concerning choosing Egwene, I see it the same as Perrin going after the Shaido and Faile, or going after Faile in TAR during the Battle of the Stone. He was devoted to Egwene body and soul. He would give up everything he believes in to be with her because he's in love. Same as Perrin. No issue. Again, he loves Egwene above all, and then chooses his duty from what remains.

 

All Gawyn has seen of Rand is death and destruction. He heard about his mother's murder. He saw Rand amass an army of crazy, murderous men inside his borders and then saw them unleashed to devestating and disgusting proportions at Dumai's Well. He's seen raids on innocent folk by "Dragonsworn". He's heard about Tarabon and Arad Doman and all the other nations in turmoil because of him. Even in two of the nations he controls, he has large rebellions led by respected noblemen against him. His hatred of Rand is completely rational. Rand is utterly destroying the peace that had lasted since the Aiel War and changing the face of the world.

 

All of this doesn't really matter. As much as I do believe Gawyn is a good guy (flawed, yes, but not bad or stupid or any of the other adjectives so often attached to him), this isn't a topic on the morality of characters. It's on whether they're underrated. Gawyn gets more shit thrown at him than any other character by everyone imaginable, including the fans and author, with almost no support. The hatred is practically on the point of irrationality. Awhile back, there was a thread on Blademasters and when Gawyn was included with Rand, Lan, and Galad, many people flipped out. None of his actual accomplishments with his sword mattered, only that it was Gawyn. By virtue of the fact he has no support when he deserves at some, he is underrated.

[Sephie913]

Wow. Seriously sidetracked by good ol' Gawyn, huh? Bummer.

 

I have a character I think is underrated. well, not so much underrated as no one has had a chance to see what she can do since TEotW. Morgase has been undercover, believed dead, imprisoned, etc. since she first really popped up. we saw a little authority in ToM, but she could be such an asset as a (secret, of course) advisor to Elayne. Much like Moiraine, Morgase has such a deep reservoir of knowledge that no one has been able to tap into. It'll be interesting to see some peoples' reactions when they know she's alive.

[csnyder]

Elaida. I have this weird feeling that many of the things she put into motion (even accidentally) will eventually really help out the Light. She single-handedly, albeit unintentionally, set forth in motion the idea to root out the BA through Seaine. Trying to maintain Tower-connections with Andor will probably be essential in the recovering of Caemlyn - perhaps even through revealing Traveling to the Seanchan, the Seanchan will instead focus efforts on rooting out the Dark and will be extremely effective in doing so with this weave (and maybe they will practice Unweaving with the Aiel Wise One damane to help in the testing making incredible OP weapons for the Light). We were made to hate her to the point of her being unreemable, but I have this notion that her chaos will help the Light in the end. Hell, even her Palace will probably be made into some residences for non-AS channelers visiting the Tower or something of the ilk.

[baalsmistress]

I'd have to dispute Elaida.

 

Hunt for BA: SS set the wondergirls on that trail long before Elaida's hunt started. And had much more success

Maintaining Tower connections to Andor : Eqwene and Elayne are friends. That alone will maintain that connection, the damage done by Siuan and Elaida is not too important

Giving travelling to the Seanchan : It's inevitable they would learn it sooner or later, but them learning it sooner could cause huge damage to the tower

 

Everything she has done has sewn dissent and division. She behaved like a petulant spoiled brat when she had power. It was her orders that resulted in Rand's kidnap.

 

Okay, perhaps she is underrated. She's actually a much more effective agent for the shadow than usually given credit for. Even without being a formal darkfriend

[Suttree]

Hell, even her Palace will probably be made into some residences for non-AS channelers visiting the Tower or something of the ilk.

 

New BT?

[baalsmistress]

It never got built. At least, not beyond the foundations

[Suttree]

It never got built. At least, not beyond the foundations

 

Yeah of course it's only in the foundation stage(a signficant amount of work btw) but you really think it never will? I can't imagine it not being used after being introduced like that.

[Edynol]

I think Talmanes is really underrated. His awesomeness just doesn't receive enough credit.

[RandA lThor]

I think Talmanes is really overrated. His awesomeness just doesn't receive enough credit.

 

I think you mean underrated. Yeah, I agree with you, some people don't see what Talmanes can really do because he is always overshadowed by Mat. This happens to a lot of overshadowed people. People may underestimate a normal Aiel who is not as good as Rhuarc or something like that. We tend to look at the best as normal if we see them too often. Then anyone not as good as them we see as weak.

[Edynol]

Yes! I meant Underrated. lol.