A 3rd Sa' angreal?

[Vardar]

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

 

yYa but that was kinda my point. You can choose to pull less thru an Sa'Angreal or more. You can't pull more than it allows you to pull, but you can use less. So if less power is good, a Sa'angreal accomplishes both.

 

Yes, having a sa'angreal still leaves you the option of using less Power. I guess it's a balance between "How often am I going to need the amount of Power that a sa'angreal provides?" and "How difficult is it to make a sa'angreal?" I mean, having a helicopter, two different sized trucks, a sports car, a speed boat, and a hovercraft in my garage along with my normal car would give me a lot more options, but the effort required to make them all would not be worth the payout ...

 

... unless I'm Batman ...

 

But seriously, I think the rarity of angreal and sa'angreal speaks to the difficulty of their manufacture relative to their everyday usefulness. Even in the Age of Legends, I doubt that your everyday Aes Sedai needed such tools on a regular basis - or even occasionally. Remember that there were things called "standing flows" ... I don't think we're sure exactly how those worked, but they seemed to provide Power-based energy to many well-engineered ter'angreal that did the big stuff that might otherwise have needed an angreal or sa'angreal.

 

So, there isn't really any situation in which having an angreal or sa'angreal available is a problem, much in the same way that having a full range of vehicles available would never stop you getting in your normal car and driving. But the effort of making a hundred thousand of them would not be worth the payoff, because 99% of the time, you just don't need them. Not many people have lives like our heroes, or their enemies.

 

They seemed pretty common back then, The Aiel noted yet another AS who came and took away multiple Sa'Angreal.

 

But I see your point too, I'm just expressing thoughts... Batman!

[Neophyte]

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

 

yYa but that was kinda my point. You can choose to pull less thru an Sa'Angreal or more. You can't pull more than it allows you to pull, but you can use less. So if less power is good, a Sa'angreal accomplishes both.

 

Yes, having a sa'angreal still leaves you the option of using less Power. I guess it's a balance between "How often am I going to need the amount of Power that a sa'angreal provides?" and "How difficult is it to make a sa'angreal?" I mean, having a helicopter, two different sized trucks, a sports car, a speed boat, and a hovercraft in my garage along with my normal car would give me a lot more options, but the effort required to make them all would not be worth the payout ...

 

... unless I'm Batman ...

 

But seriously, I think the rarity of angreal and sa'angreal speaks to the difficulty of their manufacture relative to their everyday usefulness. Even in the Age of Legends, I doubt that your everyday Aes Sedai needed such tools on a regular basis - or even occasionally. Remember that there were things called "standing flows" ... I don't think we're sure exactly how those worked, but they seemed to provide Power-based energy to many well-engineered ter'angreal that did the big stuff that might otherwise have needed an angreal or sa'angreal.

 

So, there isn't really any situation in which having an angreal or sa'angreal available is a problem, much in the same way that having a full range of vehicles available would never stop you getting in your normal car and driving. But the effort of making a hundred thousand of them would not be worth the payoff, because 99% of the time, you just don't need them. Not many people have lives like our heroes, or their enemies.

 

They seemed pretty common back then, The Aiel noted yet another AS who came and took away multiple Sa'Angreal.

 

But I see your point too, I'm just expressing thoughts... Batman!

 

And I'm expressing back ... and we're all being polite! Isn't this fun!

 

I guess I don't read as much into Jonai's pov as you are ... there is only one time that an Aes Sedai is described as taking some sa'angreal.

 

To quote (TSR chapter 26):

 

How long since he had seen an Aes Sedai? Just after Alnora died. Too late for Alnora. The woman had Healed the sick who still lived, taken some of the sa’angreal, and gone on her way, laughing bitterly when he asked her where there was a place of safety. Her dress had been patched, and worn at the hem. He was not sure she had been sane. She claimed one of the Forsaken was only partly trapped, or maybe not at all; Ishamael still touched the world, she said. She had to be as mad as the remaining male Aes Sedai.

 

So, it doesn't say how many sa'angreal there were, or that multiple Aes Sedai came on multiple occasions to take multiple sa'angreal. Is taking "some of the sa'angreal" taking 3 out 5, or 15 out 40, or 120 out of 300? We simply don't know, but most of what is in the wagons seems to be ter'angreal, which were always more common. I'm betting that angreal were not really common even in the Age of Legends, and that sa'angreal were even less so. Certainly not as rare as they are at the end of the Third Age, but not necessarily "common."

[Vardar]

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

 

yYa but that was kinda my point. You can choose to pull less thru an Sa'Angreal or more. You can't pull more than it allows you to pull, but you can use less. So if less power is good, a Sa'angreal accomplishes both.

 

Yes, having a sa'angreal still leaves you the option of using less Power. I guess it's a balance between "How often am I going to need the amount of Power that a sa'angreal provides?" and "How difficult is it to make a sa'angreal?" I mean, having a helicopter, two different sized trucks, a sports car, a speed boat, and a hovercraft in my garage along with my normal car would give me a lot more options, but the effort required to make them all would not be worth the payout ...

 

... unless I'm Batman ...

 

But seriously, I think the rarity of angreal and sa'angreal speaks to the difficulty of their manufacture relative to their everyday usefulness. Even in the Age of Legends, I doubt that your everyday Aes Sedai needed such tools on a regular basis - or even occasionally. Remember that there were things called "standing flows" ... I don't think we're sure exactly how those worked, but they seemed to provide Power-based energy to many well-engineered ter'angreal that did the big stuff that might otherwise have needed an angreal or sa'angreal.

 

So, there isn't really any situation in which having an angreal or sa'angreal available is a problem, much in the same way that having a full range of vehicles available would never stop you getting in your normal car and driving. But the effort of making a hundred thousand of them would not be worth the payoff, because 99% of the time, you just don't need them. Not many people have lives like our heroes, or their enemies.

 

They seemed pretty common back then, The Aiel noted yet another AS who came and took away multiple Sa'Angreal.

 

But I see your point too, I'm just expressing thoughts... Batman!

 

And I'm expressing back ... and we're all being polite! Isn't this fun!

 

I guess I don't read as much into Jonai's pov as you are ... there is only one time that an Aes Sedai is described as taking some sa'angreal.

 

To quote (TSR chapter 26):

 

How long since he had seen an Aes Sedai? Just after Alnora died. Too late for Alnora. The woman had Healed the sick who still lived, taken some of the sa’angreal, and gone on her way, laughing bitterly when he asked her where there was a place of safety. Her dress had been patched, and worn at the hem. He was not sure she had been sane. She claimed one of the Forsaken was only partly trapped, or maybe not at all; Ishamael still touched the world, she said. She had to be as mad as the remaining male Aes Sedai.

 

So, it doesn't say how many sa'angreal there were, or that multiple Aes Sedai came on multiple occasions to take multiple sa'angreal. Is taking "some of the sa'angreal" taking 3 out 5, or 15 out 40, or 120 out of 300? We simply don't know, but most of what is in the wagons seems to be ter'angreal, which were always more common. I'm betting that angreal were not really common even in the Age of Legends, and that sa'angreal were even less so. Certainly not as rare as they are at the end of the Third Age, but not necessarily "common."

 

LOL. Yes, yes it is fun!

You may be correct I think I read too much into that sentence, add to it the one on the next page that speaks of thousands of wagons, stretching miles, that contain Angrea, Sa'Angreal and Ter'Angreal.. And that wasn't even from all the cities.

 

But still, she took some of the Sa'Angreal (Not a couple or a few, but some, no telling what that means) no Angreal. I'd say they were pretty darn common in AOL. But alas, we'll never know.

[thisguy]

My guess is terangreal were more common. If the OP was the tech of the age then a lot of it would be created for non-power people to use.

[b3arz3rg3r]

What need would there be for many sa'angreal? Usually there was just no need for so much power, I figure most of the angreal and sa'angreal were made during the war, when people were desperate for having more power than the other side.

 

Besides as powerful as they were people had to take care the sa'angreal didn't fall into the wrong hands. Sa'angreal are basically the nukes of Randland, even one in the hands of the wrong person could lead to disaster.

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know whether RJ ever made mention of whether it took both sexes in a link to create angreal or whether women created angreal for men and vice verca?

[Vardar]

What need would there be for many sa'angreal? Usually there was just no need for so much power, I figure most of the angreal and sa'angreal were made during the war, when people were desperate for having more power than the other side.

 

Besides as powerful as they were people had to take care the sa'angreal didn't fall into the wrong hands. Sa'angreal are basically the nukes of Randland, even one in the hands of the wrong person could lead to disaster.

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know whether RJ ever made mention of whether it took both sexes in a link to create angreal or whether women created angreal for men and vice verca?

 

It was never mentioned. (As far as I know, I've only read speculation and no quotes yet)

 

I would guess like Ter'Angreal, a single person can make an Angreal up to a certain strength. I wonder why Elayne didn't try to duplicate the ones she had, after wanting to get her hands on one.

[Orderofolde]

1. They intentionally placed Callandor in the Stone as per prophecy.

 

2. It would be a bit hard to move two massive statues such as the Chodean Kal, and getting near them would be constantly dangerous.

 

But seriously, they hid the access keys from the Shadow, for fear of someone actually using them. (they were only built to contain the DO, not any other use, as they were too powerful) The ones that hid them didn't dare tell anyone where they were hidden, in case the Shadow got a hold of them.

 

It is explained in the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

According to the manuscript pages, all of the agents responsible for this smuggling were caught, though that was not known until events had far outrun anyone's plans. They were brave men and women, for although those who were not killed outright were tortured, and though some revealed the purpose of their mission, none betrayed the location of any of the access ter'angreal. Still, the only real result was that the ter'angreal were widely scattered across areas held for the Shadow, their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia.

They obviously managed to get a pair either to the wagons while being loaded for the Aiel to take and were grouped as Ter'angreal or else the sisters that came for the Angreal and Sa'angreal would have taken them. Or they made their way to Rhuidean after the city was founded. I thought it strange that one of these Ter'angreal access keys, a broken female one iirc, made it into the panarch's palace museum. I also wondered why more than one set were made, as if the CK were supposed to be used by more than one person at a time for each female and male statue.

[Orderofolde]

What need would there be for many sa'angreal? Usually there was just no need for so much power, I figure most of the angreal and sa'angreal were made during the war, when people were desperate for having more power than the other side.

 

Besides as powerful as they were people had to take care the sa'angreal didn't fall into the wrong hands. Sa'angreal are basically the nukes of Randland, even one in the hands of the wrong person could lead to disaster.

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know whether RJ ever made mention of whether it took both sexes in a link to create angreal or whether women created angreal for men and vice verca?

 

It was never mentioned. (As far as I know, I've only read speculation and no quotes yet)

 

I would guess like Ter'Angreal, a single person can make an Angreal up to a certain strength. I wonder why Elayne didn't try to duplicate the ones she had, after wanting to get her hands on one.

This is probably correct, however I always viewed stronger Angreal and the creation of Sa'angreal as needing both men and women, working together "could accomplish great things."

[yoniy0]

or else the sisters that came for the Angreal and Sa'angreal would have taken them.

Why would you say that? First, that AS might've taken one female key and left the rest behind. Second, she might've been afraid to use those, and chose other, less powerful, sa'angreal instead.

Also, Jonai was 63 on the day the People left Paaren Disen. Coumin was only 16 the day of the Strike at Shayol Ghul (clearly before Jonai was born). Easily enough time for the keys to have been recovered after the war was over.

[jelleyt]

Hi there, recent reader, first time poster.

 

Apologies for any duplications or seeming ignorance there is alot on here!

 

My thoughts on angreal/sa'angreal are:

A) Sa'angreal were only produced in the AoL to increase/aid the production on extremely large ter'angreal (glass columns of Rhudien etc.) assuming that there is a limit on circles or to allow greater creation for less human input/hours. Effectively (before the knowledge of the DO/evil) they were tools for creation/maintenance only all to go with the standing flows.

B) in the AoL why would they create sa'ang's when during a time of peace they wouldn't need to have access to the vlolume of power? When the bore is created and war breaks out they then create more powerful sa'ang's such a callendor (spelling) but it could be flawed as this is the first sa'ang of this level of magnification and as its a trial process the AS get it wrong hence the flaw (reflected in elayne not being able to copy mats medallion ter' exactly ie it's copies are flawed/also dream ter') this Could indicate evidence for the 2nd most powerful (still undisovered but probably in DF/FS hands) Sa'ang could exist and is basically callendor without the flaws. Also could explain why the sa'ang is in the shape of a weapon where as most (turtles/ women in med/Seminole rings or jewellery) are peaceful or more general items. I've not head of a dagger ang'?

C) why has elayne studied ter's but Not ang's as ang's would be much more useful in the unsettled times of the pending TG? Especially considering that other thing (power wrought weapons) are chanced upon and discovered by almost accident?

D) why do none of the forsaken actually being from AoL know how to make ang'/sang? Unles this is a creation of the good guys after the FS have already gone to the shadow and therefore dont know or the time investment is so great that they cannot afford to waste it making ang'?

 

I hope someone can give answers to there points as they have been bugging me for quite some time!

[thisguy]

I can only speculate on some of that - creating a Ter' is a talent that was lost. I don't know if it is the same talent to create Ter' as it is to create an angreal.

[Terez]

Elayne did study angreal but couldn't work out how to copy them. Making 'angreal is a Talent that apparently none of the Forsaken possessed. (They have other Talents.) RJ said that Callandor's flaw was a manufacturing flaw due to mass production.

[Luckers]

or else the sisters that came for the Angreal and Sa'angreal would have taken them.

Why would you say that? First, that AS might've taken one female key and left the rest behind. Second, she might've been afraid to use those, and chose other, less powerful, sa'angreal instead.

 

There are other oddities than just the Aes Sedai looking to fight Ishamael during the breaking. For instance Elza and Shadar Haren don't touch the male key which was with the Domination Band. And for that matter Solinda didn't work to secure the Access Keys with Callandor.

[TLHansum]

 

Elza and Shadar Haren don't touch the male key which was with the Domination Band. And for that matter Solinda didn't work to secure the Access Keys with Callandor.

 

SH wouldnt want to take the male CK, because that would nullify his chance at ending the world via Veins of Gold

[Luckers]

What makes you think Shaidar Haren wanted that? If the Shadow simply wanted the world ended, they could have done it by now--rather, it's clear they wanted the world ended on the Dark One's terms, and to that effect they wanted Rand--not dead--but turned to the Shadow.

 

So yes, I find it problematic to suggest Shaidar Haren wanted that result--but even if it did, what evidence is there to suggest it had any way of predicting that result--that Rand would take the Choedan Kal and turn it against the world and the pattern?

[Neophyte]

What makes you think Shaidar Haren wanted that? If the Shadow simply wanted the world ended, they could have done it by now--rather, it's clear they wanted the world ended on the Dark One's terms, and to that effect they wanted Rand--not dead--but turned to the Shadow.

 

So yes, I find it problematic to suggest Shaidar Haren wanted that result--but even if it did, what evidence is there to suggest it had any way of predicting that result--that Rand would take the Choedan Kal and turn it against the world and the pattern?

 

I don't think the Dark One feared the Choedan Kal in Rand's possession. He wanted Rand obsessed with his own power. Just look at the next thing Rand did with it - he balefired Natrin's Barrow.

 

Whatever Rand has to do to defeat the Dark One, I doubt it has much to do with raw power. Lanfear's lines about destroying the Dark One with it were either lies or evidence of her own self-deceit - there was never a chance that Rand could have outright destroyed the Dark One, even with both Choedan Kal intact and a willing female ally. But as long as Rand had the access key, he was looking for solutions in those terms, i.e. the wrong terms. My bet is that suited the Dark One just fine.

 

If Shaidar Haran could have gotten his hands on the access key before Rand cleansed the taint, then he probably would have taken it. But after that, it was actually in the Dark One's interest to have it in Rand's possession - it kept Rand focused on the wrong weapon.

[yoniy0]

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

[Morden]

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

 

Also the CK also makes Rand more unlikely to trust others. He couldnt need to link and give control to women for it to be safe to use, therefore to him anyone saying that he needs to use Callendor is trying to control him. Paranoid Rand doesnt react well to that which makes him more and more estranged from the people trying to help him.

[Maleshub]

Why would Shadar Haran worry about the Choedan Kal when the tactical plan (which succeeded magnificently) is to link Rand to the DO via the True Power? Rand linked to the DO with access to the TP and in possession of the CK is what the DO needs. Then, no one can use the CK to fight Rand.

[fuzz1717]

Why would Shadar Haran worry about the Choedan Kal when the tactical plan (which succeeded magnificently) is to link Rand to the DO via the True Power? Rand linked to the DO with access to the TP and in possession of the CK is what the DO needs. Then, no one can use the CK to fight Rand.

 

Was the use of the TP ever confirmed to be an active gift from the DO? I always figured it was because of his link to Moridin that he got to use the TP

[Terez]

Was the use of the TP ever confirmed to be an active gift from the DO? I always figured it was because of his link to Moridin that he got to use the TP

 

I asked Brandon about that.

[Luckers]

What makes you think Shaidar Haren wanted that? If the Shadow simply wanted the world ended, they could have done it by now--rather, it's clear they wanted the world ended on the Dark One's terms, and to that effect they wanted Rand--not dead--but turned to the Shadow.

 

So yes, I find it problematic to suggest Shaidar Haren wanted that result--but even if it did, what evidence is there to suggest it had any way of predicting that result--that Rand would take the Choedan Kal and turn it against the world and the pattern?

 

I don't think the Dark One feared the Choedan Kal in Rand's possession. He wanted Rand obsessed with his own power. Just look at the next thing Rand did with it - he balefired Natrin's Barrow.

 

Whatever Rand has to do to defeat the Dark One, I doubt it has much to do with raw power. Lanfear's lines about destroying the Dark One with it were either lies or evidence of her own self-deceit - there was never a chance that Rand could have outright destroyed the Dark One, even with both Choedan Kal intact and a willing female ally. But as long as Rand had the access key, he was looking for solutions in those terms, i.e. the wrong terms. My bet is that suited the Dark One just fine.

 

If Shaidar Haran could have gotten his hands on the access key before Rand cleansed the taint, then he probably would have taken it. But after that, it was actually in the Dark One's interest to have it in Rand's possession - it kept Rand focused on the wrong weapon.

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

 

Also the CK also makes Rand more unlikely to trust others. He couldnt need to link and give control to women for it to be safe to use, therefore to him anyone saying that he needs to use Callendor is trying to control him. Paranoid Rand doesnt react well to that which makes him more and more estranged from the people trying to help him.

 

The problem with all of these is that whatever potential gain the Shadow may have gotten from Rand's exposure to the CK could be gained through other means--means that don't bear a risk--much less a great risk--to everything the Shadow wishes to achieve (the True Power, for instance).

 

It just doesn't make sense.

[Neophyte]

What makes you think Shaidar Haren wanted that? If the Shadow simply wanted the world ended, they could have done it by now--rather, it's clear they wanted the world ended on the Dark One's terms, and to that effect they wanted Rand--not dead--but turned to the Shadow.

 

So yes, I find it problematic to suggest Shaidar Haren wanted that result--but even if it did, what evidence is there to suggest it had any way of predicting that result--that Rand would take the Choedan Kal and turn it against the world and the pattern?

 

I don't think the Dark One feared the Choedan Kal in Rand's possession. He wanted Rand obsessed with his own power. Just look at the next thing Rand did with it - he balefired Natrin's Barrow.

 

Whatever Rand has to do to defeat the Dark One, I doubt it has much to do with raw power. Lanfear's lines about destroying the Dark One with it were either lies or evidence of her own self-deceit - there was never a chance that Rand could have outright destroyed the Dark One, even with both Choedan Kal intact and a willing female ally. But as long as Rand had the access key, he was looking for solutions in those terms, i.e. the wrong terms. My bet is that suited the Dark One just fine.

 

If Shaidar Haran could have gotten his hands on the access key before Rand cleansed the taint, then he probably would have taken it. But after that, it was actually in the Dark One's interest to have it in Rand's possession - it kept Rand focused on the wrong weapon.

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

Plus, we know that VoG was predictable insofar as the wolves knew it was coming. I find it very likely that this was the Shadow's endgame as well -- or else that it served as means of keeping Rand's mind off Callandor.

 

Also the CK also makes Rand more unlikely to trust others. He couldnt need to link and give control to women for it to be safe to use, therefore to him anyone saying that he needs to use Callendor is trying to control him. Paranoid Rand doesnt react well to that which makes him more and more estranged from the people trying to help him.

 

The problem with all of these is that whatever potential gain the Shadow may have gotten from Rand's exposure to the CK could be gained through other means--means that don't bear a risk--much less a great risk--to everything the Shadow wishes to achieve (the True Power, for instance).

 

It just doesn't make sense.

 

When the Shaidar Haran left the access key alone, Rand hadn't touched the True Power quite yet - the Dark One couldn't have been sure that he would. And once he had, what need was there to worry about Rand having the access key?

 

And what risk did Rand's access to the Choedan Kal pose to the Dark One? Why does Rand having access to the Choedan Kal (again, after the taint is cleansed - I buy your argument prior to that event) pose any threat to the Dark One? Rand can't hurt/kill the Dark One directly - all he can do is deny him access to the Pattern, and the Choedan Kal is the wrong tool for that.

 

As long as Rand had the access key working, he thought of himself as a weapon. That was to the Dark Ones advantage. There was no downside for the Dark One to having Rand in possession of the Choedan Kal.

[yoniy0]

I agree. It was risky for the FS, but not for the DO.

[TristanWebb]

Has SH ever done anything directly that didn't involve the Forsaken?

 

I can't remember, but it seems to me that the only times he interacts with the world physically is to beat on Mesaana, Moghedian and Grendal. He doesn't release Semi himself, he tells Elza to. It might not have been possible for him to take the access key, and Semi taking it on the way to capture Rand would be a pretty stupid idea.