Another Demandred topic

[XoMeltdownoX]

Clearly Demmy is pretending to be Taim pretending to be Nial pretending to be...ahhh who else used that phrase?

 

Seriously, Demandred could not stand in Rand' presence without trying to kill him. His hate for LTT is too strong. There is no way he was meant to be Taim in disguise early in the books.

[Finnssss22]

ishy caused his damage before the current age.

 

he has done nothing this age besides being rand al thor whipping boy thrice in the series

 

 

You mean besides orchestrating two of the biggest events in this age like the Trolloc Wars and manipulating Hawkwing into fighting the AS, eventually culminating in the Hundred Year War. As well as getting him to send his kin across the ocean creating the Seanchan.

Of course, there's always the whole Farstrider thing and the running of the Black Ajah for at least the last 20 years.

 

 

big freakin deal. past endevaours means nothing this age. Aginor created trollocs, fades and gholams before. His creations are still here this age. one of them caused a huge setback when fel was killed. but nothing was dented or caused upset by aginor's direct actions so far in this age. ishy has been useless this age and that's all there is to it. He's supposed to be the most powerful smartest of all forsaken and yet asmo and messana the two weaker of the chosen were the ones who caused a huge rift in the current age

 

 

He has done nothing absolutely nothing this age. He is living on past glories. Much like me on these forums these days

 

What Age are you talking about???

We are in still in the Age After Breaking, the Third Age.

 

"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past..."

 

Sound familiar at all? It should be, it's only the starting line of every chapter one in every book.

Last I checked, the Trolloc wars and the War of the Hundred years were in the Third age.

 

Oh and Aginor might of created the Trollocs but he did it by accident and still has no idea exactly how. All he knows is that they were a failure until he used the True power in the process, which also created the Fades, something else he has no clue about.

 

The world as we know it today has been directly shaped by Ishamael in one way or another.

[Elan Tedronai]

doesn't matter. ishy has been rand al thor's little £%£" throughout this series. forming the black ajah and creation of the seanchan happened when the light was in disarray, men AS going crazy etc

 

Right now what is this fool good for? what has he done since book 1? nothing? so forgive me but ishy and demy can rot for all i care

[Finnssss22]

doesn't matter. ishy has been rand al thor's little £%£" throughout this series. forming the black ajah and creation of the seanchan happened when the light was in disarray, men AS going crazy etc

 

 

You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about., just admit that and move on.

Just because Ishamael hasn't fared well head to head vs Rand in the last 2 years, that doesn't diminish the FACT of what Ishy has accomplished over the last 3000 years.

[Suttree]

forming the black ajah and creation of the seanchan happened when the light was in disarray, men AS going crazy etc

 

Ermm what?

[Elan Tedronai]

doesn't matter. ishy has been rand al thor's little £%£" throughout this series. forming the black ajah and creation of the seanchan happened when the light was in disarray, men AS going crazy etc

 

 

You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about., just admit that and move on.

Just because Ishamael hasn't fared well head to head vs Rand in the last 2 years, that doesn't diminish the FACT of what Ishy has accomplished over the last 3000 years.

 

3000 year?

 

i couldnt care less about what happened 3000 years? shit before that the dark one owned all male aes sedai in an epic backlash.

 

I care what happened between the eye of the world till towers of midnight.

 

the evidence says ishy and demy have been comeplete shit. waste of space forsaken. no guts. no glory nothing apart from sitting and hiding in some rooms pretending to run some worthless scheme.

 

 

so it's you has no idea.

[Cybertrolloc]

I disagree. What happens after that? He offers proof of identity. Something that not everyone knows, but that Bashere and Taim will. By offering knowledge that is not widespread, Bashere accepts him as Taim. It makes any argument about Taim not being Taim that little bit more complicated. How would an imposter know?

Remember Arangar's backstory, this isn't a stretch at all and we see how it's done a few chapters later.

[Finnssss22]

doesn't matter. ishy has been rand al thor's little £%£" throughout this series. forming the black ajah and creation of the seanchan happened when the light was in disarray, men AS going crazy etc

 

 

You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about., just admit that and move on.

Just because Ishamael hasn't fared well head to head vs Rand in the last 2 years, that doesn't diminish the FACT of what Ishy has accomplished over the last 3000 years.

 

3000 year?

 

i couldnt care less about what happened 3000 years? shit before that the dark one owned all male aes sedai in an epic backlash.

 

I care what happened between the eye of the world till towers of midnight.

 

the evidence says ishy and demy have been comeplete shit. waste of space forsaken. no guts. no glory nothing apart from sitting and hiding in some rooms pretending to run some worthless scheme.

 

 

so it's you has no idea.

 

Haha, seriously, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

First off...The Eye of the World began with Ishy and LTT and the formation of Dragonmount. Which btw was over 3000 years ago heh.

Second, the Trolloc wars that were caused and orchestrated by Ishamael, happened about 1000 years later and lasted over 300 years. It resulted in massive changes in countries. As in some ceased to exist like Manetheren for example. During these wars is also when Ishamael formed the Black Ajah and had the White Tower raided, removing many objects of the one power.

Third, a little more than 900 years later, Ishamael was adviser to Hawkwing and convinced him to not only make war with the AS but also convinced him to send his kin across the ocean with a corrupted version of the KC resulting in the formation of the Seanchan Empire. This also resulted in there not being enough of Hawkwing's kin left to hold his empire together in Randland, resulting in the Hundred Years war culminating in most of the Nations we see today.

 

Everything Ishamael has done over the last 3000 years is still having huge ramifications on the world today.

 

Denying what he has done and calling him useless is just pure shortsighted ignorance on your part.

[Azrayne]

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

Funny, what did you use to search? Ideal Seek has Nial using so called in TDR and I only spent 10 seconds searching. Guess he was someone in disguise?

 

To refer to something completely different. Are you being intentionaly obtuse?

[Suttree]

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

Funny, what did you use to search? Ideal Seek has Nial using so called in TDR and I only spent 10 seconds searching. Guess he was someone in disguise?

 

To refer to something completely different. Are you being intentionaly obtuse?

 

I was joking, you left out the Aiel part after all. ;) Although technically "so called Seanchan" could fit in to something a forsaken would say. Regardless people have stated already the phrasing could be Taim imitating his betters as much as anything.

[Durinax]

anyways, back to the original post. When did Masema really begin terrorizign the south interior?

[UncleButcher1980]

Graendal and Sammael at least have both used either 'so called Aiel' or 'so called Aes Sedai' or similar comments, iirc. I think Asmodean did too. It's certainly not just Moridin.

 

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

According to Ideal Seek, 'so-called Aiel' has only been uttered by Moridin and Taim. But even your search for 'so called' pulled up nothing on Demandred, so no specific connection.

 

 

It's not just 'him popping up.' He's given the beginning and ending of a sub plot, so logically there has to be something to go into the middle.

 

On top of that, a lot of the secondary evidence points towards Dem. The way he reacts to Rand, especially that 'second' comment ShenAnCalhar else pointed out.

 

Nevermind that all of the male forsaken are accounted for at that stage iirc.

 

But what is this secondary evidence? He get's mad a Rand - would Demandred, his arch-nemisis, be restrained enough just to get mad? What else is there, that specifically points to him being Demandred as opposed to surely the more obvious answer that he works for Demandred (he likes his proxies you know) or one of the other Forsaken?

[Elan Tedronai]

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago. I told you i dont care about past glories. Ishy has done nothing from eye of the world. Absolutely nothing apart being whipped by an unschooled shepherder.

 

You just wasted all that time writing all that jazz when i told you past glories is something i am not after. Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief. The other gets beaten by an old man and his hussies. what a sad sorry state of the forsaken

[Azrayne]

According to Ideal Seek, 'so-called Aiel' has only been uttered by Moridin and Taim. But even your search for 'so called' pulled up nothing on Demandred, so no specific connection.

 

The other are 'so called Aes Sedai,' I think, but same deal.

 

But what is this secondary evidence? He get's mad a Rand - would Demandred, his arch-nemisis, be restrained enough just to get mad? What else is there, that specifically points to him being Demandred as opposed to surely the more obvious answer that he works for Demandred (he likes his proxies you know) or one of the other Forsaken?

 

Well iirc DO was throwing the phrase 'Nae'Blis' around in the prologue. Pretty sure that would be enough to make even Demandred hold off on killing Rand for the time being.

 

I mean lets face it, quite a few of the Forsaken have a deep seated hatred of Rand, if they were serious about killing him they could have pulled it off a long time ago. Hell, Semirhage could have just woven Balefire instead of a fireball and bam, no Randypoo. It's only the DO/Moridin saying he has to be kept alive till the last battle that's resulted in them facing him one by one when they make stupid mistakes or snap or he chases them down or whatever. And besides, let's face it, if Rand died because all 13 (sans whoever was dead at that stage) of the forsaken travelled on top of his head and laid down some balefire way back in book 3 or 4 or whenever, the series wouldn't be much fun :p

[Rallan]

Just to add another piece of circumstantial evidence to the mix, the one that had me convinced Taim == Demandred on my first read:

 

Straightening, he hoped there were enough; he really had not expected anywhere near so many men. "Dedicated who advance their skill far enough will be called Asha'man, and they will wear this." Taking out the small velvet bag, he held up what it contained. Sunlight sparkled on finely crafted gold and rich red enamel. A sinuous form exactly like the one on the Dragon banner. That went onto Taim's collar too, on the other side, so sword and Dragon shone at the sides of his throat. "I suppose I was the first Asha'man," Rand told the students, "but Mazrim Taim is the second." Taim's face made stone look soft; what was wrong with the man?

 

....

 

Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain, he stuck his hands behind his back, where they clenched into fists. Lews Therin rumbled in the distance, an echo of his anger. "What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since I put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them? If so, I don't understand...."

 

We all know that Demandred's entire life is defined by being second-best to Lews Therin - swordsmanship, the One Power, military command - you name it. This line stood out as classic RJ foreshadowing, and adds to an already compelling case.

 

I throw my lot in with Azrayne, as I also theorize that Taim was originally supposed to be Demandred. By doing so, you could argue that I'm calling RJ a "liar" in the classic sense of the term, but I believe that a white lie issued in the hopes of maintaining the illusion of plot stability is the right thing to do in this scenario. The world isn't black and white, and lying isn't always a bad thing.

 

I'm not sure if that's evidence enough, because the motivation for half hte male Forsaken seems to have been "perpetually peeved that Lews Therin was better", and the motivation for virtually all the modern day darkfriends is "monumental chip on my shoulder because the world doesn't realise that I'm the best that ever was".

 

Although yeah, I'm defending what may or may not have been a case of the author changing horses in midstream by pointing out that the author was so bad at writing villains in general that it's impossible to work out any one villain's identity based on a motive that they all shared, so I doubt I'm making friends with the "Jordan planned it that way all along!" camp :)

[Azrayne]

He did some of the Forsaken pretty well, Asmodean and Graendal in particular I always found to be fairly interesting as villains, Mesaana/Moghedian/Lanfear/Ishamael to a lesser extent too, but you're right he seemed to have started copy-pasting them after a while. I think he got half way through making up the male Forsaken and ran out of idea's, which is why Be'lal/Sammael/Demandred all have the same 'really jealous because they couldn't stand how super duper awesome Lews Therin was' backstory. Honestly, for the first or second time I read the series, I couldn't keep track of most of the male forsaken because they were so indistinguishable.

 

Really wish he kept Asmodean around for longer. It was nice to get a character with a little moral ambiguity, a different viewpoint on the storyline and a unique personality. He didn't want to rule the world or end the world or kill Lews Therin because he was jealous, he just wanted to live forever and make music, and he seemed to come close to genuine repentance for a while.

 

Though cutting off the hands of every musician who offended him is a bit fucked up.

[Mr Ares]

But again, while everything you mention could suggest Taim is or has a connection with a Forsaken, there is nothing specific with Demandred. Indeed, I think Moridin is the only person to have used that phrase 'so called Aiel' in the books. All you have really is Demandred popping up in the prologue and epilogue.

 

Graendal and Sammael at least have both used either 'so called Aiel' or 'so called Aes Sedai' or similar comments, iirc. I think Asmodean did too. It's certainly not just Moridin.

 

Edit: Just did a quick search for 'so called.' Got Moridin, Moghedian, Lanfear, Osan'gar. And more to the point, no one else, except Taim. There are various slight rewordings 'those who pass for Aes Sedai these days' etc. but I cbf looking them up.

 

All you have really is Demandred popping up in the prologue and epilogue.

 

It's not just 'him popping up.' He's given the beginning and ending of a sub plot, so logically there has to be something to go into the middle.

 

On top of that, a lot of the secondary evidence points towards Dem. The way he reacts to Rand, especially that 'second' comment ShenAnCalhar else pointed out.

 

Nevermind that all of the male forsaken are accounted for at that stage iirc.

 

Secondly, what you have is weak and circumstantial. If Demandred is Taim, then what did he achieve in this book? He gave Rand an army. Great move, Shadow. That'll stop the Dragon for sure.

 

What did he do? He got close to Rand, was put in direct and fairly autonomous control of the only group of male channelers in the world, which would go on to become one of Rand's most powerful weapons. That's a massive score for team evil, and I'm sure DO would be pretty stoked by it.

 

Maybe he was lying, but I would rather just take him at his word.

 

And that's the problem, you'd rather just follow blindly with what RJ said than think critically about the situation. Which is fine, you're welcome to think whatever you want, but wanting something to be right isn't an argument 'for' it being right.

Indeed. And that is precisely what everyone has been telling you. Funny, the way people can be so blind to these things. "I am the only one who has thought critically about this, you should all agree with me!" So said by everyone on every side. As has been pointed out, the evidence is suggestive at best. If the evidenc ecould only mean Demandred is Taim, then that would mean that that evidence doesn't make sense now. Is that your argument? If it does make sense now, then clearly there were other interpretations of that evidence that were viable. They might have become more or less likely in the face of new evidence, they might not have occured at the time, but the evidence can either be taken to mean only that Taim is Demandred (and thus RJ must be lying) or it could always be taken to mean something else (in which case while RJ might have lied, there is no evidence to suggest that he did). As people are finding other things that that evidence could mean, eithe ryou must show that that evidence couldn't possibly be taken to mean anything other than Taimandred, or you must accept that there was always the possibility that RJ meant something else. And if there is the possibility that he meant something else, where is your evidence to suggest that he lied? That you were not wrong? Why won't you give him the benefit of the doubt?

 

Now, what evidence points to Taim being Demandred in particular? Well, physical features, perhaps. His attitude, not wanting to be seen as second best, not so much - personal jealousy led to Demandred joining the Shadow, but it also led to Be'lal and Sammael's defections. Demandred is doing something in this book, true, but that doesn't mean it's this. He could, for example, have masterminded the kidnap plot. He could be doing any number of things besides being Taim. As has been said, the evidence is pretty scant. Hardly neon arrows. Now explain his knowledge. Now explain his preference for using proxies. Correcting my earlier post, where I thought it was mentioned in ACoS, Ideal Seek tells me that LoC 6 tells us that Demandred had always liked using proxies. So we have it confirmed in that very book that he likes using proxies, and yet this doesn't tell you that Taim is perhaps more likely to be Demandred's proxy than Demandred himself? Why can't those neon arrows be poiting to that instead? What of Taim's similarities with Moridin? His use of phrasing is, as already pointed out, not matched by Demandred's, but it is by Moridin's. And his achievements in this book - he is put in command of an army of Rand's, but it is an army Rand wouldn't otherwise have. Every Asha'man Taim recruits who is more loyal to the Dragon than to Taim is a soldier in the enemy camp they didn't have to deal with. The creation of the BT is a double edged sword for the Shadow. Taim made it a success. Taimandred was always a weak theory. Time made it weaker, but it was never anything like a sure thing. Taim being Demandred's man was perhaps even more plausible at the time.

 

I disagree. What happens after that? He offers proof of identity. Something that not everyone knows, but that Bashere and Taim will. By offering knowledge that is not widespread, Bashere accepts him as Taim. It makes any argument about Taim not being Taim that little bit more complicated. How would an imposter know?

Remember Arangar's backstory, this isn't a stretch at all and we see how it's done a few chapters later.

It is a stretch. The Shadow rescued Taim, tortured him for information, replaced him with a poor copy. And for what? What does it achieve that couldn't be done otherwise? Why not just show up as a new channeler, some male Wilder? This is not an impossible work around, but it does smack of being unnecessarily convoluted.

[Suttree]

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago.

 

No he isn't, it may be time for you to consult a timeline mate.

 

As for these books the BA have caused more than enough damage. That was his creation.

[Nightstrike]

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago.

Ishy/Moridin didn't intend for Rand to die most of the time. He even saved Rand from falling into a pit or something. Moridin is said to be more than half mad and less than half human, but I think he bosses people around just fine anyway. The intention is for the DO to win, this time or another turning, not for himself to be the one to rule the world under the DO's protection.

[Finnssss22]

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago. I told you i dont care about past glories. Ishy has done nothing from eye of the world. Absolutely nothing apart being whipped by an unschooled shepherder.

 

You just wasted all that time writing all that jazz when i told you past glories is something i am not after. Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief. The other gets beaten by an old man and his hussies. what a sad sorry state of the forsaken

 

Heh, going by most of your posts, almost everyone in the series is a chump and I'm not even sure why you continue to read it.

With your level of understanding, lack thereof that is, of intricacies and subtleties, I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

[Suttree]

I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

I don't know about that. aSoIaF has a fairly high number of intricate mysteries & politics integral to the central story. I dare say you could find a couple of people at Westeros that might disagree with your statement ;)

[Elan Tedronai]

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago. I told you i dont care about past glories. Ishy has done nothing from eye of the world. Absolutely nothing apart being whipped by an unschooled shepherder.

 

You just wasted all that time writing all that jazz when i told you past glories is something i am not after. Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief. The other gets beaten by an old man and his hussies. what a sad sorry state of the forsaken

 

Heh, going by most of your posts, almost everyone in the series is a chump and I'm not even sure why you continue to read it.

With your level of understanding, lack thereof that is, of intricacies and subtleties, I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

you insult me so much. i am no longer your friend. let it be known from now on elan and finy boy are enemies.

 

seriously though. The villains in this series are all mediocre, disappointing and laughable except a few.

 

Asmo, messana, rahvin and ofcourse padan fain were/are the only credible villains. That's why ASOIF trumps WOT sadly

[MasterAblar]

Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief.

 

Didn't Moridin step outside the pattern, or something similar, because of the amount of power Rand was channelling?

[Finnssss22]

I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

I don't know about that. aSoIaF has a fairly high number of intricate mysteries & politics integral to the central story. I dare say you could find a couple of people at Westeros that might disagree with your statement ;)

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong, aSolaF is not a bad series at all but the level of intrigue, mystery and especially character development is not on a level with WoT.

How can it be when just about anyone you start to get into is usually killed off heh ;)

 

 

 

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago. I told you i dont care about past glories. Ishy has done nothing from eye of the world. Absolutely nothing apart being whipped by an unschooled shepherder.

 

You just wasted all that time writing all that jazz when i told you past glories is something i am not after. Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief. The other gets beaten by an old man and his hussies. what a sad sorry state of the forsaken

 

Heh, going by most of your posts, almost everyone in the series is a chump and I'm not even sure why you continue to read it.

With your level of understanding, lack thereof that is, of intricacies and subtleties, I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

you insult me so much. i am no longer your friend. let it be known from now on elan and finy boy are enemies.

 

seriously though. The villains in this series are all mediocre, disappointing and laughable except a few.

 

Asmo, messana, rahvin and ofcourse padan fain were/are the only credible villains. That's why ASOIF trumps WOT sadly

 

Haha! What did Asmo do besides truly becoming Rand's bitch? And Mesaana...WTF did she do except get Siuan removed as the AS and orchestrated with Demandred I might add, what was intended to be a failed kidnapping of Rand?

Rahvin...you have got to kidding me! He played with his pretties doing nothing until he get owned by Rand.

 

C'mon man, how about we just wait until aMoL to make the call on just how "inept" Ishy/Moridin and Demandred actually have or haven't been shall we?

 

If you can't see the genius and planning that Ishamael has accomplished to this point with EVERYTHING the world is...then I'm sorry but you are obviously too much of a straight line thinker that always needs instant gratification.

Sadly, incapable of truly enjoying the WoT series.

[Elan Tedronai]

I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

I don't know about that. aSoIaF has a fairly high number of intricate mysteries & politics integral to the central story. I dare say you could find a couple of people at Westeros that might disagree with your statement ;)

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong, aSolaF is not a bad series at all but the level of intrigue, mystery and especially character development is not on a level with WoT.

How can it be when just about anyone you start to get into is usually killed off heh ;)

 

 

 

@finnsss

 

my friend what is wrong with you?

 

you keep talking about events orchestrated 3,000 years ago. I told you i dont care about past glories. Ishy has done nothing from eye of the world. Absolutely nothing apart being whipped by an unschooled shepherder.

 

You just wasted all that time writing all that jazz when i told you past glories is something i am not after. Demy and ishy spend have wasted my time this series.

 

Look at the cleanising of saidin. One of them chooses to hide like a common thief. The other gets beaten by an old man and his hussies. what a sad sorry state of the forsaken

 

Heh, going by most of your posts, almost everyone in the series is a chump and I'm not even sure why you continue to read it.

With your level of understanding, lack thereof that is, of intricacies and subtleties, I have a feeling you would enjoy GRRM a lot more.

You know what I mean, stick to Checkers over Chess ;)

 

you insult me so much. i am no longer your friend. let it be known from now on elan and finy boy are enemies.

 

seriously though. The villains in this series are all mediocre, disappointing and laughable except a few.

 

Asmo, messana, rahvin and ofcourse padan fain were/are the only credible villains. That's why ASOIF trumps WOT sadly

 

Haha! What did Asmo do besides truly becoming Rand's bitch? And Mesaana...WTF did she do except get Siuan removed as the AS and orchestrated with Demandred I might add, what was intended to be a failed kidnapping of Rand?

Rahvin...you have got to kidding me! He played with his pretties doing nothing until he get owned by Rand.

 

C'mon man, how about we just wait until aMoL to make the call on just how "inept" Ishy/Moridin and Demandred actually have or haven't been shall we?

 

If you can't see the genius and planning that Ishamael has accomplished to this point with EVERYTHING the world is...then I'm sorry but you are obviously too much of a straight line thinker that always needs instant gratification.

Sadly, incapable of truly enjoying the WoT series.

 

asmo gave birth to the shaido sheninigans. culminating in the kidnap of the half wit's wife. mesana gave birth to the tower schism. that's two things more than ishy and demy have done this generation.

 

rahvin killed asmo, mat and aviendha. he knew how to fight. nynaeve and balefire saved rand's ass. Which cant be said for ishy the clown and demy the tool.

 

 

so tell me what should i wait for? one more book? what are demy and ishy going to do in amol that is going to erase books of mediocrity? nothing short of dying in blazing glory ought to suffice at this point