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Durinax

egwene vs elayne (political arcs)

  

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  1. 1. which was better?



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The Dragon Reborn has never, in any of the popular culture we've seen, been depicted as some kind of beneficent savior of mankind, in fact, rather the opposite. Stories of the Dragon Reborn were used to frighten children. He is expected to Break the world again. He brings chaos and death in his wake. That he will fight and beat the Dark One is part of the canticle, but the part viewed with the most distrust and suspicion. In short, the Dragon Reborn is viewed by most people as a monster on the same level as the Forsaken, that just happens to be the one destined to re-seal the Dark One. None of the nobles in any of the cities he's conquered or subdued showed much liking or trust in Rand, rather, they followed him because they were afraid of him, they were awed by his power and his destiny, or manipulated by his ta'veren-ness. But many nobles also rebelled, they wanted to prevent him from Breaking the world again and from severing the ties that bind, and they didn't wish to follow a mad male channeler. By your formulation, Theodril, the only rebels against the Dragon Reborn should be Darkfriends, but we know that's not the case, Darlin and Caraline being the obvious examples. You can't ignore the fact that most people in most nations are incredibly prejudiced against the Dragon Reborn.

Edited by Thrasymachus

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Presumably rumours of the Daughter Heirs return would spread, if anyone met them on the road. The AS have little reason to be secretive (also, it could be advantageous - no-one will trifle with AS lightly, after all. So being escorted by As gives her a degree of security).

 

Dyelin says she heard rumours of Elayne 2 days before Elayne rode into Caemlyn, which isn't all that much. And the Aes Sedai might not want Rand to hear that Elayne is on her way back. Elayne has the strongest claim, and if Rand decides he wants a puppet Queen on the throne (he wouldn't, but the Aes Sedai would definitely believe it of him), Elayne would be the most suitable.

 

None of the nobles in any of the cities he's conquered or subdued showed much liking or trust in Rand,

 

There is Dobraine and Bashere (although he didn't conquer Saldea), but that's about it, although I don't remember the lllianers having much of a problem with him.

Edited by Master Ablar

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in the words of one famous youtuber's comment

 

18 people dont know what they are talkin about.

 

Seriously. Take elayne out of the story and.............. nothing changes

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in the words of one famous youtuber's comment

 

18 people dont know what they are talkin about.

 

Seriously. Take elayne out of the story and.............. nothing changes

 

Well, thank you for your valuable and incredibly insightful contribution here.

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in the words of one famous youtuber's comment

 

18 people dont know what they are talkin about.

 

Seriously. Take elayne out of the story and.............. nothing changes

 

Well, thank you for your valuable and incredibly insightful contribution here.

 

why thank you. It always pays to get to the point rather than having a discussion that rivals war and peace with nothing to show for it

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Which is of course fairly ludicrous expecting that she would be able to plan for those unforeseen circumstances. It is quite clear the original plan was safe and rational, you can not hold against her what happened after which was bad luck. Now if you want to say she didn't adapt to the circumstances that is fine, although it is rather beside the original point.

 

I never said that Elayne should have the power to see the future and plan for unexpected eventualities. I said that when circumstances change and put her in unexpected danger, she just stayed there and risked her life needlessly.

 

She says that she did something rash and how she needs to take less risks; Birgitte can provide many quotes on Elayne's death-wish and needless plunging into danger. But that particular text reference is interpreted as a reaction to "bad luck" ruining good plans.

 

Reading Elayne, I see a very brave, foolishly brave, person who risks herself when there is a job to do. She did that in Tear, Tanchico, and Ebou Dar. It is a singular trait with a person on one mission. As a queen, she doesn't have to do everything with her hands anymore; but she's still in that mode.

 

We have proven with quotes from the text multiple times how distorted the information was around this particular battle and what they thought happened to Morgase. Despite that you keep repeating the same interpretation with zero to back it up. It has nothing to do with hatred against the DR(although he is distrusted most places) and everything to do with the Andorans not knowing what actually happened and wanting him out of Andor.

 

And I have provided text that any influential person who wanted to find the truth about Morgase and the battle could have done a little investigation and come up with multiple witnesses to clear Rand's name. The "good" High Seats were in Caemlyn for sometime before meeting Rand in the Palace. Did they listen to rumors or try to investigate what happened in their capital? Did it have to take a personal issue of (Did the father of my babies kill my mother?) to trigger such an investigation in the first place?

 

In TGS, Chapter 24: A New Commitment, Gareth Bryne talks to Gawyn about Rand and Morgase.

 

Bryne looked at Gawyn sharply. "Al'Thor saved Andor, son. Or as near to it as a man could."

 

"How could you say that?" Gawyn said, pulling his hand away. "How could you speak well of that monster? He killed my mother!"

 

"I don't know if I believe those rumors or not," Bryne said, rubbing his chin. "But if I do, lad, then perhaps he did Andor a favor. You don't know how bad it got, there at the end."

 

"I can't believe I'm hearing this," Gawyn said, lowering his hand to his sword. "I won't hear her name soiled like that, Bryne. I mean it."

 

Bryne looked him directly in the eyes. His gaze was so solid. Like eyes carved of granite. "I'll always speak truth, Gawyn. No matter who challenges me on it. It's hard to hear? Well, it was harder to live. No good comes of spreading complaints. But her son needs to know. In the end, Gawyn, your mother turned against Andor by embracing Gaebril. She needed to be removed. If al'Thor did that for us, then we have need to thank him."

 

"These aren't the words of a spurned lover," Bryne said, face set, as if shoving aside emotions. He spoke softly as he and Gawyn walked, camp followers giving them a wide berth. "I can accept that a woman could lose affection for a man and bestow it on another. Yes, Morgase the woman I can forgive. But Morgase the Queen? She gave the kingdom to that snake. She sent her allies to be beaten and imprisoned. She wasn't right in her mind. Sometimes, when a soldier's arm festers, it needs to be cut free to save the man's life. I'm pleased at Elayne's success, and it is a wound to speak these words. But you have to bury that hatred of al'Thor. He wasn't the problem. Your mother was."

 

"I can see the intent behind that look," Bryne said. "All the more reason to get you back to Andor. You'll see. If you don't trust me, ask your sister. See what she says of it."

 

Was this evident only to Bryne? Shouldn't the others who felt Morgase's compulsion-induced actions have felt the same? Why is it that Bryne doesn't believe that Rand killed Morgase and calls them rumors?

Edited by Theodril

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I never said that Elayne should have the power to see the future and plan for unexpected eventualities. I said that when circumstances change and put her in unexpected danger, she just stayed there and risked her life needlessly.

 

My fault then, when you said...

 

And don't get me started on Elayne's adventure in her dungeons! That would probably draw a few vintage Cauthon - Uno words .

 

It sounded like you were knocking her plan since it was grouped along with your doing so for the BA hunt.

 

And I have provided text that any influential person who wanted to find the truth about Morgase and the battle could have done a little investigation and come up with multiple witnesses to clear Rand's name. The "good" High Seats were in Caemlyn for sometime before meeting Rand in the Palace. Did they listen to rumors or try to investigate what happened in their capital? Did it have to take a personal issue of (Did the father of my babies kill my mother?) to trigger such an investigation in the first place?

 

In TGS, Chapter 24: A New Commitment, Gareth Bryne talks to Gawyn about Rand and Morgase.

 

Bryne looked at Gawyn sharply. "Al'Thor saved Andor, son. Or as near to it as a man could."

 

"How could you say that?" Gawyn said, pulling his hand away. "How could you speak well of that monster? He killed my mother!"

 

"I don't know if I believe those rumors or not," Bryne said, rubbing his chin. "But if I do, lad, then perhaps he did Andor a favor. You don't know how bad it got, there at the end."

 

"I can't believe I'm hearing this," Gawyn said, lowering his hand to his sword. "I won't hear her name soiled like that, Bryne. I mean it."

 

Bryne looked him directly in the eyes. His gaze was so solid. Like eyes carved of granite. "I'll always speak truth, Gawyn. No matter who challenges me on it. It's hard to hear? Well, it was harder to live. No good comes of spreading complaints. But her son needs to know. In the end, Gawyn, your mother turned against Andor by embracing Gaebril. She needed to be removed. If al'Thor did that for us, then we have need to thank him."

 

"These aren't the words of a spurned lover," Bryne said, face set, as if shoving aside emotions. He spoke softly as he and Gawyn walked, camp followers giving them a wide berth. "I can accept that a woman could lose affection for a man and bestow it on another. Yes, Morgase the woman I can forgive. But Morgase the Queen? She gave the kingdom to that snake. She sent her allies to be beaten and imprisoned. She wasn't right in her mind. Sometimes, when a soldier's arm festers, it needs to be cut free to save the man's life. I'm pleased at Elayne's success, and it is a wound to speak these words. But you have to bury that hatred of al'Thor. He wasn't the problem. Your mother was."

 

"I can see the intent behind that look," Bryne said. "All the more reason to get you back to Andor. You'll see. If you don't trust me, ask your sister. See what she says of it."

 

Was this evident only to Bryne? Shouldn't the others who felt Morgase's compulsion-induced actions have felt the same? Why is it that Bryne doesn't believe that Rand killed Morgase and calls them rumors?

 

Come on mate, that is from TGS we are talking about events all the way back in LoC and have clearly shown what the High Seats thought at that time. What you think they should have thought has zero bearing on the situation. Either provide something from that time disputing our quotes or concede the point.

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Come on mate, that is from TGS we are talking about events all the way back in LoC and have clearly shown what the High Seats thought at that time. What you think they should have thought has zero bearing on the situation. Either provide something from that time disputing our quotes or concede the point.

 

Gareth Bryne was "put to pasture" before Rand liberated Caemlyn; and he is telling Gawyn of the events that he witnessed and the situation he saw in Caemlyn when he was there. Gareth's opinion was not formed in his manor house, during the time he was chasing after Siuan's passionate eyes, or in Salidar. He had been cut off from Caemlyn for a while. So, Bryne's knowledge and opinion was pre-LoC, even if it is written in TGS.

 

I never said that Elayne should have the power to see the future and plan for unexpected eventualities. I said that when circumstances change and put her in unexpected danger, she just stayed there and risked her life needlessly.

 

My fault then, when you said...

 

And don't get me started on Elayne's adventure in her dungeons! That would probably draw a few vintage Cauthon - Uno words .

 

It sounded like you were knocking her plan since it was grouped along with your doing so for the BA hunt.

 

You know how these things get lost with a lengthy discussion. But I will admit that the discussion has altered my view on certain aspects of the adventure. I see why Elayne was pushed to take the step to "question" the BA. But the risk she took to stay and fight was foolhardy.

Edited by Theodril

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Come on mate, that is from TGS we are talking about events all the way back in LoC and have clearly shown what the High Seats thought at that time. What you think they should have thought has zero bearing on the situation. Either provide something from that time disputing our quotes or concede the point.

 

Gareth Bryne was "put to pasture" before Rand liberated Caemlyn; and he is telling Gawyn of the events that he witnessed and the situation he saw in Caemlyn when he was there. Gareth's opinion was not formed in his manor house, during the time he was chasing after Siuan's passionate eyes, or in Salidar. He had been cut off from Caemlyn for a while. So, Bryne's knowledge and opinion was pre-LoC, even if it is written in TGS.

 

Well first off to say I that I disagree with his take on Morgase would be an understatement. As for the rest he wasn't there, he is going off what he heard from Egwene and Siuan most likely. With all that he still isn't sure as of TGS that Rand didn't kill Morgase. Surely that speaks to our point of how muddled the situation was with the High Seats back in LoC.

 

Edit: From the way he discusses the situation it would seem to be clear that he doesn't know Gaebril was Rahvin and he isn't sure if Rand killed Morgase. I honestly can't think of another passage that would better lend more weight to our side.

Edited by Suttree

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Unlike Suttree, I don't disagree with Byrne's take on Morgase. She was under Rhavin's compulsion and needed to be removed. But Gareth Byrne was in a unique position to get that point of view. And even though he realizes that Rand did Andor a favor, that still doesn't give him (Rand) the right to pass out the Crown of Andor like some kind of bauble. That quote doesn't say anything about Byrne's feelings regarding Rand's presumption to give the throne to Elayne, nor what he would have done if Rand had overstayed his welcome. And one thing Byrne doesn't reveal is any sort of knowledge that Gaebril was really Rhavin. He's grateful to Rand because Rand stopped Gaebril, who was manipulating and controlling Morgase, not because he thinks Rand freed the city from one of the Forsaken. And it still doesn't show that he trusts Rand in any way.

 

But what of the common folk? What of the nobles who fled or were exiled early during Gaebril's stay? Byrne himself was exiled not long after Gaebril set up in Caemlyn, but was closer to Morgase than most other nobles. How many of them would have retained some loyalty to Morgase, just because she's the queen and they realize they don't have the full story or refuse to believe the newest tales of corruption in the Royal Court? Rand's attack on Rhavin would have appeared to be an invasion, what with large numbers of Aiel joining him, especially after Cairhein and Tear. Who's to confirm that the fireballs and lightning witnessed by many came from Gaebril, and not Rand, except Rand himself and his allies? None of the High Seats Rand met with seemed to really believe that Gaebril was really Rhavin, despite Rand's assurances. Nobody, not the nobles and not the commoners, had any reason to trust Rand or to tolerate his presence in their nation prior to Gaebril's defeat, and afterwards, their only reason to be grateful to Rand was because he ended Morgase's reign, which was becoming ever more intolerable, but which was still, in their minds, primarily an internal Andoran problem, not an issue to involve the Dragon Reborn. That Gaebril was really Rhavin, they didn't know, and only have Rand's word for its truth, whom they are already predisposed to mistrust and avoid if possible.

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1- See, that does at least vaguely relate to the point. The rest of your quote doesn't. Firstly, the question is did Elayne have a good plan? Yes. Did the circumstances she was facing change? Again, yes. So her plan was not equipped to deal with the new circumstances.

 

2- So what does she do now? According to you, she should run away. Why? What benfit is there in this? What risk? As it is, she lost the Source after being tackled - even if she tried to run that could still happen. Even if fireballs are not a threat, a man could bring her down. Running is not risk free. So why is it preferable?

 

1- That was simply what I've been trying to say from the start.

Funnily enough, it's not in dispute - I'vebeen saying it from the start as well. The situation she was in changed in an unforeseen way. Also a way that might b freseeable, but is ludicrously unlikely. Given you initially took objection to the quality of the plan, and yet now have no objection to the plan, only her reaction to the change in circumstances, this can only be seen as you moving the goalposts.

 

2- The risk in not running away is her life. She is alive by Daved Hanlon's mercy. He wants to enjoy her first! As to being tackled, how could that happen if she covers her escape with a barrier. On the other hand, the benefit of a retreat is to raise the alarm to seal the all escape routes; and get help to secure the palace and dungeons again.
The risk in running away is also her life. Barriers can be cut through. Remember, this all take splace in a short space of time, mere seconds, and it is very important to react first. Essentially, your complaint boils down to Elayne didn't choose what you consider to be the optimum course of action in the heat of the moment. I'm sorry, but even if we accept that your course of action is as risk free as you try to portray, and that bluffing or fighting have no possible gains that could exceed the benefits of running away (which is not something I do accept), it is still apparent that you are holding her to a ludicrously high standard.

 

 

 

Leaving aside that Rand didn't have the majority, Rand still had no reason to annoy the other Houses. There is no benefit to it. There is no gain to his antagonism of the Andoran Houses by saying he will give the throne. Had he phrased it more diplomatically, he would have done nothing to hurt Elayne's chances, done nothing to loosen his own grip, not alienated anyone.

 

True, Rand didn't have the majority; but he had a significant weight to counter the absent 6 houses supporting Dyelin for the Throne.

 

But the question remains with Rand suspected of killing Morgase and Elayne and with Elayne incommunicado, would he have accepted Dyelin or another for the Throne? Would Rand have taken that risk being put before him?

What does this have to do with anything? The point under discussion was if Rand could have made it apparent that he wanted Elayne on the throne without ruffling feathers with a claim that he was giving the throne to her.

 

 

 

Again, theme of the series. People misinterpret facts, only get half the story, rumours grow and change, with the truth becoming increasingly muddy with time and distance. Also, even if Gaebril was not exactly the most wonderful human being who had ever lived, that doesn't make him a Chosen. That was the point. People have nothing besides Rand's word.

 

So, you think that Andorans are like Gawyn Trakand, taking a rumor from a peddler in the middle of nowhere are turning it into a flame of hatred against the savior of mankind, the Dragon Reborn.

 

I don't see the people of Randland as that dumb. I see a strong sense of independence and freedom of expression (Andorans!) as a sign of common sense and awareness.

This has already been addressed by others, but it is worth repeating. You have still given no reason for people to accept that Gaebril was Rahvin. A lot of people do dislike the DR.

 

 

You've just changed your tune. Also, how does including Dyelin help with the perception that she relies too heavily on her? Apples and oranges.

 

Apples: Egwene did not distance and diminish the role of her puppeteers.

Oranges: Elayne felt the need to reduce the role of her alleged puppeteer.

Still not answering my question. How does relying more heavily on Dyelin help with the perception that she relies too heavily on Dyelin?

 

1.If there was a network of eyes and ears, wy have we heard nothing of it? Also, other than Thom why do you consider these people suitable for the position of spymaster?

2.The rebel army is not currently a threat. What threats would have been dealt with?

3.The WT remains largely ignorant of what is going on inside the BT.

5.You expect an organisation starting from nothing to have built up a large body of information on quite a few people over a short space of time. Unrealistic.

6.Little information. Doubtful it would help that much.

 

No, I think that while she might have been able to prioritize finding a spymaster more, I don't think it would have done much to help, given that said spymaster would have to start from nothing (so far as we know), he or she would only have a short time to work, and TG will undoubtedly be very disruptive, thus losing many of the spies you do place.

 

1- Are you saying that the largest kingdom in Randland did not have a network of eyes-and-ears to start with (pre-Gaebril)? As to why others are suitable; because the are capable individuals not distracted by other official functions.

2- If Sarand's army is not a threat, why did Elayne have to buy Elenia with estates in Cairhien? Of the 3 stripped of titles and estates, Sarand was the only one granted a 2nd chance in Cairhien. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3- The BT is on Andoran soil; And Elayne has a festering pocket of powerful Darkfriends within 4 leagues of her capital. Who should pay more attention to it, WT or Elayne?

5- You expect a nation to accept a Queen for the sole reason that her mother was impregnated by a man dead decades earlier? Of course, Elayne should build up her information on the houses of the country she wants to rule (especially those who want her dead!) and the people whose fealty she wants. She has to do her homework!

 

As to your final comment that TG will disrupt a spymaster's work, we are talking about the institutions of a country, the foundations. Still, Elayne is already thinking, planning, and acting on several post-TG projects!

1. If there was a network, we have heard nothing about it. Elayne has had to start from scratch. Also, all the High Seats have official duties. Being a lord isn't just a title, it's a job.

2. Sarand's army might become a threat. As it is, they have gone to ground and aren't doing anything. Taking the throne would be a difficult proposition, but they can do some damage. They are certainly not a major threat, given what we know, but have the potential to be mightily inconvenient.

3. Moving the goalposts again. You said the WT had spies inside the BT.

5. Beside the point. She has a short amount of time, and has to create a spy netowrk from scratch. Building up an extensive amount of information on the Cairhienin nobility under those circumstances is a difficult proposition.

 

Also, while Elayne is making plans for after TG, those plans are not as easily disrupted as a spy network. If she has a treaty with Saldaea, or Ghealdan, that treaty can hold in the face of new rulers. Unless one or both parties decide to break the treaty, it can hold. If there is a lot of disruption, you can lose contact with spies, find out that the information you recieve is out of date before you even get it, have your spies captured or killed. How many spies do you think she can get into a given country before TG? How much reporting will they get done before swarms of Trollocs hit? Also, a significant number of people will be fighting at TG, leaving less to report on. The thing she most needs information on, the Shadow, lies beyond her ability to infiltrate. She will need spies. She has made a start on getting them. But before TG they can only do so much.

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What does this have to do with anything? The point under discussion was if Rand could have made it apparent that he wanted Elayne on the throne without ruffling feathers with a claim that he was giving the throne to her.

 

You see it possible for Rand to adequately preserve Andor's independence and pride while denying the Houses' right to choose another queen at a time when Elayne was practically missing.

 

How could he have worded his wish of restricting the throne to the missing daughter-heir without infringing on the Andorans' right to choose another queen right away?

 

1. If there was a network, we have heard nothing about it. Elayne has had to start from scratch. Also, all the High Seats have official duties. Being a lord isn't just a title, it's a job.

2. Sarand's army might become a threat. As it is, they have gone to ground and aren't doing anything. Taking the throne would be a difficult proposition, but they can do some damage. They are certainly not a major threat, given what we know, but have the potential to be mightily inconvenient.

3. Moving the goalposts again. You said the WT had spies inside the BT.

5. Beside the point. She has a short amount of time, and has to create a spy netowrk from scratch. Building up an extensive amount of information on the Cairhienin nobility under those circumstances is a difficult proposition.

 

1- I was just assuming that a Kingdom like Andor would have had a network during Morgase's rule. If that needs evidence, I'll have to dig through the books for it.

2- It is still a rebel army, even if its danger is greatly reduced. And we've seen examples in Cairhien and Tear that they can be a pain. So, it would serve the Crown's stability to negate this threat. And having failed militarily (because of lack of information), Elayne resolved the issue politically.

3- It was never stated that the WT had spies inside the BT. I said that the WT gathered information about the BT from merchants and civilians dealing with the BT. Regardless, the WT gathered the information it needed. Elayne needs to gather the information she needs.

5- Elayne doesn't have time to gather information on the Cairhien houses and their allegiance; but has time to seize the Sun Throne and rule two countries instead of one?

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What does this have to do with anything? The point under discussion was if Rand could have made it apparent that he wanted Elayne on the throne without ruffling feathers with a claim that he was giving the throne to her.

 

You see it possible for Rand to adequately preserve Andor's independence and pride while denying the Houses' right to choose another queen at a time when Elayne was practically missing.

 

How could he have worded his wish of restricting the throne to the missing daughter-heir without infringing on the Andorans' right to choose another queen right away?

Through diplomatic phrasing. The throne belongs to Elayne. Say that instead of saying you are giving it to her.

 

 

 

1. If there was a network, we have heard nothing about it. Elayne has had to start from scratch. Also, all the High Seats have official duties. Being a lord isn't just a title, it's a job.

2. Sarand's army might become a threat. As it is, they have gone to ground and aren't doing anything. Taking the throne would be a difficult proposition, but they can do some damage. They are certainly not a major threat, given what we know, but have the potential to be mightily inconvenient.

3. Moving the goalposts again. You said the WT had spies inside the BT.

5. Beside the point. She has a short amount of time, and has to create a spy netowrk from scratch. Building up an extensive amount of information on the Cairhienin nobility under those circumstances is a difficult proposition.

 

1- I was just assuming that a Kingdom like Andor would have had a network during Morgase's rule. If that needs evidence, I'll have to dig through the books for it.

2- It is still a rebel army, even if its danger is greatly reduced. And we've seen examples in Cairhien and Tear that they can be a pain. So, it would serve the Crown's stability to negate this threat. And having failed militarily (because of lack of information), Elayne resolved the issue politically.

3- It was never stated that the WT had spies inside the BT. I said that the WT gathered information about the BT from merchants and civilians dealing with the BT. Regardless, the WT gathered the information it needed. Elayne needs to gather the information she needs.

5- Elayne doesn't have time to gather information on the Cairhien houses and their allegiance; but has time to seize the Sun Throne and rule two countries instead of one?

1. Morgase might have had a spy network. There is no evidence of it now. No spies coming out the woodwork, no-one seeking to get back in contact, no messages. No-one wondering why they haven't been paid (or signing up with the new boss in order to get paid again).

2. A political solution is to be desired anyway. So in this instance how would more information have helped?

3. The WT did not gather the information it needed. They do not know about the mass of Darkfriend channelers there, do they? So if the WT, with its established eyes and ears, has only limited information on the BT, how is Andor, with no established network, meant to infiltrate it in such a short time?

5. Sezing the Sun Throne itself took mere hours, less than a day. Building up information on the nobility, to any significant extent, would likely take a greater expenditure of time and effort. Further, she had to take the Sun Throne before TG, because she needs to begin mustering troops for the Last Battle.

Edited by Mr Ares

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Ares your point 5 got cut off.

 

 

But for myself another reason I enjoyed Elaynes arc in this regard was seeing economic issues addressed, in some actually significant way creating a sustained boon to the country (instead of asking for tributes from others like the WT - reunion arc did, until the rediscovery of cuenduellar, but even then)

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Through diplomatic phrasing. The throne belongs to Elayne. Say that instead of saying you are giving it to her.

 

I take it that your suggestion is what I underlined above. Ok, let us run through Rand's meeting with Dyelin, Luan, Abelle, and Ellorien.

 

Rand, "I will not welcome you. This is your land, and the palace of your queen. But I am pleased you accept my invitation."

 

Rand sent Bashere away, and the 4 High Seats glanced after a departing Bashere with the faintest of satisfied smiles.

 

Rand, "I would think you would want to help put Andor back together. You've heard my proclamation?"

 

Ellorien, "A reward for news offered of Elayne, who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

Dyelin, "That seemed well, to me."

 

Ellorien, "Not to me. Morgase betrayed her friends and spurned her oldest adherents. Let us put and end to House Trakand on the Lion Throne."

 

Luan, "Dyelin, she has the best claim. I speak for Dyelin."

 

Dyelin, "Elayne is the daughter-heir. I speak for Elayne."

 

Abelle, "What does it matter who any of us speak for? If he killed Morgase, he will …."

 

Rand, "Do you really believe that? Why under the light would I kill Morgase only to hand that to Elayne?"

 

Ellorien, "Few know what to believe. People say many things, most foolish."

 

Dyelin, "That you will fight the Last Battle and kill the Dark One. That you are a false Dragon, or an Aes Sedai puppet, or both… Most say you killed Morgase. Many add Elayne. They say your proclamation is a mask to hide your crimes."

 

Rand, "I won't ask which you believe. Instead, will you help me make Andor whole again? I don't want Andor to become another Cairhien, or worse, a Tarabon or Arad Doman."

 

Abelle, "I know something of the Karaethon Cycle. I believe you are the Dragon Reborn, but nothing there speaks of you ruling, only fighting the Dark One at Tarmon Gai'don."

 

Rand, "How many times must I say I don't want to rule Andor. When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne, I will leave Andor. And never return – if I have my way."

 

Ellorien, "If the throne belongs to anyone, it belongs to Dyelin. If you mean what you say, have her crowned and go. Then Andor will be whole, and I don't doubt Andoran soldiers will follow you to the Last Battle, if that's what is called for."

 

Dyelin, "I refuse still. I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in Cairhien and Tear, or you loose here those … men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." (The other 3 echoed her.)

 

Rand, "Consider what you must, I mean what I said. But consider this as well. Tarmon Gai'don is coming closer. I don't know how long we have for you to spend considering."

 

After a re-read of this part, it was a surprise how Rand handled that meeting. My previous impression was that Rand acted arrogantly; but he was very restrained and diplomatic. A few notes to consider here:

 

- Rand did not act as if he ruled Andor; and stated explicitly that he has no intention of doing so.

- His use of words: "When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne …" has absolutely no hint of him "giving" the throne to her.

- Ellorien indirectly objected to your suggested use of words, "If the throne belongs to anyone, it belongs to Dyelin." She and Luan did not think the throne belongs to Elayne.

- The High Seats were divided and that 2 of them wanted Dyelin, the next in line for the throne, crowned right away. And that goes against Rand's plan for Andor (which is in evidence in the CoS during his secret visit to Caemlyn after Dumai Wells. That visit has many interesting notes that might be used for further discussion.)

- Ellorien used a very interesting expression when she told Rand, "Have her crowned and go." And that expression clearly hints at Rand giving the throne to Dyelin more than anything else pertaining to him doing the same to Elayne.

- When Abelle threw the charge that he killed Morgase, his reaction was very calm. In response to a charge that he killed Morgase (to rule Andor), his response was why kill Morgase (and become ruler) only to give that back to Elayne?

 

 

2. A political solution is to be desired anyway. So in this instance how would more information have helped?

3. The WT did not gather the information it needed. They do not know about the mass of Darkfriend channelers there, do they? So if the WT, with its established eyes and ears, has only limited information on the BT, how is Andor, with no established network, meant to infiltrate it in such a short time?

 

2 – Elayne was forced into a political solution. She offered holdings in Cairhien to Elenia only (because her husband has a hidden army) and did not offer the same to the other two stripped of titles and estates. So, a political solution was not desired by Elayne.

3 – Funny that this point reminded me of the scene where Taim was peaking at Elayne's bottom! But that isn't the point here!

A problem with your rationale in this is that the WT hasn't known about the BT much longer than Elayne. After all it is a "new establishment." And another problem is that the BT is about 12 miles away from Caemlyn and is on Andoran soil; and it is part of Elayne's post-TG plans. Who has more incentive to learn about the BT, Elayne or the WT?

Edited by Theodril

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- His use of words: "When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne …" has absolutely no hint of him "giving" the throne to her.

 

His proclamation said he was going to...

 

Ellorien, "A reward for news offered of Elayne, who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

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- His use of words: "When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne …" has absolutely no hint of him "giving" the throne to her.

 

His proclamation said he was going to...

 

Ellorien, "A reward for news offered of Elayne, who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

Then why did the proclamation seem well to Dyelin? And why did they not object to it? The object from Ellorien was against Elayne herself.

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- His use of words: "When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne …" has absolutely no hint of him "giving" the throne to her.

 

His proclamation said he was going to...

 

Ellorien, "A reward for news offered of Elayne, who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

 

Then why did the proclamation seem well to Dyelin? And why did they not object to it? The object from Ellorien was against Elayne herself.

 

The idea of Elayne on the throne seems well. Dyelin made it very clear that she would not have supported her if she thought she could accept it from Rand. That is why she asked upon Elayne's return. Ellorien's quote can not be read any other way.

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The idea of Elayne on the throne seems well. Dyelin made it very clear that she would not have supported her if she thought she could accept it from Rand. That is why she asked upon Elayne's return. Ellorien's quote can not be read any other way.

 

Yes, exactly the point. Dyelin was testing Elayne's fitness to be Queen. So, that incident is more a test for Elayne than an objection against something Rand has done.

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The idea of Elayne on the throne seems well. Dyelin made it very clear that she would not have supported her if she thought she could accept it from Rand. That is why she asked upon Elayne's return. Ellorien's quote can not be read any other way.

 

Yes, exactly the point. Dyelin was testing Elayne's fitness to be Queen. So, that incident is more a test for Elayne than an objection against something Rand has done.

 

She objected to the concept that Rand could "give" Elayne the throne, despite wanting her to be Queen and that is what the proclamation said Rand would do. On top of that Elayne had to be seen taking the throne for herself to not be viewed as a puppet. That is what the entire sequence was about and why Bashere said she couldn't use Rand's men etc. Stop splitting hairs...

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The idea of Elayne on the throne seems well. Dyelin made it very clear that she would not have supported her if she thought she could accept it from Rand. That is why she asked upon Elayne's return. Ellorien's quote can not be read any other way.

 

Yes, exactly the point. Dyelin was testing Elayne's fitness to be Queen. So, that incident is more a test for Elayne than an objection against something Rand has done.

 

She objected to the concept that Rand could "give" Elayne the throne, despite wanting her to be Queen and that is what the proclamation said Rand would do. On top of that Elayne had to be seen taking the throne for herself to not be viewed as a puppet. That is what the entire sequence was about and why Bashere said she couldn't use Rand's men etc. Stop splitting hairs...

 

The sequence was about Rand ruffling Andoran feathers and infringing on their independence. And when I read that meeting, I saw a split group of High Seats arguing in front of Rand not over the proclamation; but over who should be crowned.

 

But we have the meeting to allow Rand to express himself and clarify his intentions. Did anything he do during the meeting with Luan, Abelle, Dyelin, and Ellorien ruffle their feathers?

 

 

Rand, "I will not welcome you. This is your land, and the palace of your queen. But I am pleased you accept my invitation."

Rand sent Bashere away, and the 4 High Seats glanced after a departing Bashere with the faintest of satisfied smiles.

Rand, "I would think you would want to help put Andor back together. You've heard my proclamation?"

Rand, "I won't ask which you believe. Instead, will you help me make Andor whole again? I don't want Andor to become another Cairhien, or worse, a Tarabon or Arad Doman."

Rand, "How many times must I say I don't want to rule Andor. When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne, I will leave Andor. And never return – if I have my way."

Edited by Theodril

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The sequence was about Rand ruffling Andoran feathers and infringing on their independence. And when I read that meeting, I saw a split group of High Seats arguing in front of Rand not over the proclamation; but over who should be crowned.

 

We have a direct objection to the proclamation and we know Dyelin later objected to the concept as well. They were split only until the prospect of the Aiel looting or Rand overstaying his welcome was brought up. At that point they joined very quickly to face him. Also for you to think they would take his word about not wanting to rule after seeing those other countries fall in succession is preposterous, especially considering they thought he possibly killed Morgase to do so.

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Also for you to think they would take his word about not wanting to rule after seeing those other countries fall in succession is preposterous, especially considering they thought he possibly killed Morgase to do so.

 

And thus, Rand was damned if he said the right words and damned if he didn't. Why blame him for the proclamation then? It wouldn't have mattered if he worded it perfectly.

 

In any case, I thank you, Ares, and the other participants for indulging the discussion fancies of an overzealous noob. It has been nice discussion.

Edited by Theodril

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Also for you to think they would take his word about not wanting to rule after seeing those other countries fall in succession is preposterous, especially considering they thought he possibly killed Morgase to do so.

 

And thus, Rand was damned if he said the right words and damned if he didn't. Why blame him for the proclamation then? It wouldn't have mattered if he worded it perfectly.

 

In any case, I thank you, Ares, and the other participants for indulging the discussion fancies of an overzealous noob. It has been nice discussion.

 

Aww no worries mate, you have been an excellent addition to DM! Nice when we actually get newer member with well researched and rational takes.

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Ares your point 5 got cut off.

I've edited now. Thank you.

 

Through diplomatic phrasing. The throne belongs to Elayne. Say that instead of saying you are giving it to her.

 

I take it that your suggestion is what I underlined above. Ok, let us run through Rand's meeting with Dyelin, Luan, Abelle, and Ellorien.

 

After a re-read of this part, it was a surprise how Rand handled that meeting. My previous impression was that Rand acted arrogantly; but he was very restrained and diplomatic. A few notes to consider here:

 

- Rand did not act as if he ruled Andor; and stated explicitly that he has no intention of doing so.

- His use of words: "When Elayne sits on the Lion Throne …" has absolutely no hint of him "giving" the throne to her.

- Ellorien indirectly objected to your suggested use of words, "If the throne belongs to anyone, it belongs to Dyelin." She and Luan did not think the throne belongs to Elayne.

- The High Seats were divided and that 2 of them wanted Dyelin, the next in line for the throne, crowned right away. And that goes against Rand's plan for Andor (which is in evidence in the CoS during his secret visit to Caemlyn after Dumai Wells. That visit has many interesting notes that might be used for further discussion.)

- Ellorien used a very interesting expression when she told Rand, "Have her crowned and go." And that expression clearly hints at Rand giving the throne to Dyelin more than anything else pertaining to him doing the same to Elayne.

- When Abelle threw the charge that he killed Morgase, his reaction was very calm. In response to a charge that he killed Morgase (to rule Andor), his response was why kill Morgase (and become ruler) only to give that back to Elayne?

It is worth noting that this is but a single instance, in isolation. "I mean to give Elayne the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne." LoC 18. Yes, Rand did handle one meeting well. However, he had his banners flying above the city, he had the Lion Throne put on a pedestal while he ruled from his own throne, and it was widely said that he meant to give the throne to Elayne. In isolation, Rand did handle that meeting well. But there were other factors, factors which did nothing to help Elayne - when she returned, she had to make it apparent that she was taking what was hers by right, not accepting a gift that it was the Dragon's right to bestow. Ellorien refuses to support Trakand, after Morgase had her flogged. However, she cannot be considered accurate on the point of the throne being Dyelin's. Andor is an electoral monarchy. Normally, Elayne's succession would be automatic. However, unless she or anyone has a majority of the Houses, they cannot be considered the true queen. Dyelin did not have a majority, therefore the throne did not belong to her.

 

 

2. A political solution is to be desired anyway. So in this instance how would more information have helped?

3. The WT did not gather the information it needed. They do not know about the mass of Darkfriend channelers there, do they? So if the WT, with its established eyes and ears, has only limited information on the BT, how is Andor, with no established network, meant to infiltrate it in such a short time?

 

2 – Elayne was forced into a political solution. She offered holdings in Cairhien to Elenia only (because her husband has a hidden army) and did not offer the same to the other two stripped of titles and estates. So, a political solution was not desired by Elayne.

3 – Funny that this point reminded me of the scene where Taim was peaking at Elayne's bottom! But that isn't the point here!

A problem with your rationale in this is that the WT hasn't known about the BT much longer than Elayne. After all it is a "new establishment." And another problem is that the BT is about 12 miles away from Caemlyn and is on Andoran soil; and it is part of Elayne's post-TG plans. Who has more incentive to learn about the BT, Elayne or the WT?

It would be more accurate to say that Elayne was forced into a military solution against Arymilla. Military solutions tend to be costly, both in terms of lives and money. With TG arriving soon, Elayne cannot squander lives needlessly. Given the choice between hunting down and killing a rival army and a poltical solution, the political solution is to be desired in most cases. She couldn't bring Arymilla to heel through politics and was therefore forced to deal with her militarily - that does not indicate that she prefers warfare to politics. Also, maybe you should reread the end of ToM 50 - it is said that all three rebels will get new lands in Cairhien.

As for the BT, bear in mind that it is a hive of male channelers, something which is most definitely within the WT's area of interest. Also, geographic distance tends to matter a little less with Traveling - the BT could reach the WT as quickly as it could Caemyln.

 

And yes, this has been a nice discussion.

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