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Durinax

egwene vs elayne (political arcs)

  

72 members have voted

  1. 1. which was better?



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So, these uber-independent Andorans should have taken better care of their Kingdom if they didn't want Rand to intervene.

 

You can not possibly be serious.

 

I actually think Dylen would be extremely obvious as head of intellegence also.

 

That should go without saying...

 

Elayne's thoughts on the issue start with the word "eventually." And that is the reason that led me to raise the issue. My perception is that a Kingdom's spymaster is one of the top priorities that should not be relegated to "eventually."

 

For the last time a civil war just ended, TG is on her doorstep and their are no better candidates to hand. What you say would be correct under normal circumstances but these are far from such. Numerous people at this point have tried to explain it youin this thread, I have no idea why this is such a hard concept to understand.

Edited by Suttree

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Again, so what? I am contending that Elayne's assessment in the aftermath of things going wrong is tainted by things going horribly wrong, and therefore is not an accurate and fair appraisal. Given that, simply saying "but Elayne says..." is pointless. It doesn't address my point. Elayne is not seeint things clearly then. And when Egwene went on her cuendillar mission, she was the best candidate for the job, and it gave her the opportunity to attack the WT from within (and T'a'r allowed her to maintain control of forces on the outside). Also, do not underestimate the value of leading from the front. It can inspire people in a way that standing well away from the action can't.

 

This is where we disagree. I don't think that Elayne's statement is clouded by the circumstances. And the evidence convincing me is that she agrees with Birgitte later, and she tells herself that she doesn't need to take as many risks as she's been taking before.

So your opinion that Elayne's viewpoint isn't clouded by circumstance is backed up by Elayne's viewpoint. Hmmm. What I would be satisfied with is something to indicate that this was actually a bad plan. Did she have back up? Yes. Guards were alerted to her presence within. The people she was dealing with were shielded, so she also had channelers stationed just outside. She was holding the Source, and had a ter'angreal that prevented anyone channeling at her. So even if they decided they had reason to attack her, the can only do so with physical attacks, and only in the brief time before help arrives. Do you have any reason to believe that these women are ninjas? Or do you think someone attempting a jailbreak during the brief period she was in there is a serious thing to worry about? The chances of that happening are tiny. Yes, a jailbreak being attempted at some point is reasonable. It being during that period is not. So you're saying it was rash because it went wrong, and because Elayne said it was rash. I'm saying it was a good plan because it was a good plan.

 

 

 

As to leading from the front, it is warranted in situations like Rodel's in Maradon, where the leader's presence is a source of strength and a stopgap against total disaster. But I don't think it applies to ordinary tasks such as questioning darkfriends or arresting them.
I hardly think dealing with the BA is an ordinary task. Who was better qualified than her to deal with the BA? No-one, save perhaps the other AS - who were with her. And going without her would put Vandene at greater risk. In the dungeon, she was again the best choice for the job. Her doing it is thus reasonable in both cases.

 

 

Rand did a terribel job of allaying fears. He said he would give the throne to Elayne - anyone who wanted a free Andor, not a puppet state, would hesistate to return until Elayne herself was back and showing that she was a true Andoran queen. Also, there was a siege. Do you think these people are just going to walk through the enemy camps? That leaves only a brief period between Elayne returning and showing she's not a puppet and the rebel armies marching on the city.

 

The "free – proud – Andor that rejects foreign rule" makes me smirk every time I come across it. Just seems that uber-independence and fleeing the capital – going into hiding - and surrendering Caemlyn to two apparent usurpers don't mix well with each other. But that isn't the issue, is it?

 

So, these uber-independent Andorans should have taken better care of their Kingdom if they didn't want Rand to intervene. And he was forced to act against Rahvin after believing that Rahvin killed Morgase. He didn't want to conquer Andor. But since they couldn't defeat Rahvin, they should have at least shown some gratitude and faith in their savior's promises.

 

You say that Rand did a terrible job of allaying the fears of Andorans; and with that you mean the "good" High Houses (Pelivar, Luan, & co.). I am aware that the rest of the houses were basically kissing Rand's foot to name one of them or their allies to the throne.

 

The question would be, what could have Rand done better taken into considerations his other responsibilities & time constraints. How could he have killed Rahvin, defeated his army of Trollocs and Fades in the inner city, and restored order without the Aiel and Saldeans? What was the "independent" Andoran alternative to that?

 

Andor has a long bill to pay; and I hope they do it in the L.B. with flare. Because up till now, independent Andor hasn't done much on its own in the two years of the fight against the Shadow.

Rand could have done something very simple: not say he was going to give the throne to Elayne. It wasn't his to give, and saying that undermines her. Simply take more care with his choice of words and the problem largely disappears. Also, Gaebril might be a usurper, but he was (apparently) an Andoran usurper - he dethroned a queen who had made herself unpopular, so people had no reason to rise agaist him unless they were Morgase loyalists. But as it has already been established that Rahvin undermined all of Morgase's support (those are the guys who fled the capital, and had to reason to return under the new tyrant). Your claims get ever more laughable.

 

 

 

It is a wholly legitimate concern on her part. She doesn't want to be perceived as a weak monarch - such a perception could be damaging to her rule. So she needs to be seen to be able to stand on her own two feet, not to need Dyelin as a crutch. Also, Norry is not "perfectly suited" to the role. Hardly a sign of his being incompetent. He is a very capable interim spymaster. She has not had time to deal with the problem fully, but she has not ignored it either. Which is pretty much what people have been telling you - Norry is capable of doing the job and she hasn't had the time to create a proper eyes and ears network. Also, I will point out that you didn't mention anyone more capable as spymaster than Norry. I asked who was more qualified than him. Apparently we don't know of anyone, at least not anyone available to Elayne.

 

It isn't a wholly legitimate concern because any monarch needs to rely on strong and faithful allies who fulfill important functions. Dyelin rejected the throne when she could have snatched it. She has no ambitions; and the High Seats know it. And they know that Elayne is capable. And that is why I said it was a misguided sense of insecurity. Elayne is capable as a monarch; but she feels that she needs to be free of Dyelin's shadow, which is worrying since that would distance her from one of the few people she can really trust.

 

I won't go into the definition of "perfectly suited" and "capable" as opposed to "obvious" regarding Norry. For the issue at hand, it suffices that Elayne feels that she needs someone better, which is the point I've tried to defend.

 

Maybe I should have been more clear on my candidate: Dyelin!

 

Elayne's thoughts on the issue start with the word "eventually." And that is the reason that led me to raise the issue. My perception is that a Kingdom's spymaster is one of the top priorities that should not be relegated to "eventually."

Well, she does have a lot on her plate - from civil war to TG. In the long term building up a spy network will indeed be vital. In the short term, it isn't really necessary. Eventually makes sense. Also, politics is more complicated than you make out. Dyelin didn't seize the throne, but that doesn't indicate she has no designs on being a power behind the throne - and even if she doesn't Elayne doesn't want her to be seen as one. And bear in mind there are more people to convince than just the High Seats - there is also the general populace and foreign thrones. Yes, Elayne has to rely on those around her - but she cannot be seen to overrely on one particular person. That is the problem with Dyelin. If she is seen to be able to manage without Dyelin, all is well. Then Dyelin can be given greater responsibilities later. But now she needs to be seen to be able to function without her. Also, surely Elayne's views on Norry undermine your point - she doesn't consider replacing him to be a high priority, just something that must eventually be done.

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You can not possibly be serious.

 

I am quite serious. The sentence you referenced is linked to the last part of the same paragraph. It wasn't intended to be used alone without connection to the rest of the paragraph.

 

So, these uber-independent Andorans should have taken better care of their Kingdom if they didn't want Rand to intervene. And he was forced to act against Rahvin after believing that Rahvin killed Morgase. He didn't want to conquer Andor. But since they couldn't defeat Rahvin, they should have at least shown some gratitude and faith in their savior's promises.

 

For the last time a civil war just ended, TG is on her doorstep and their are no better candidates to hand. What you say would be correct under normal circumstances but these are far from such. Numerous people at this point have tried to explain it you in this thread, I have no idea why this is such a hard concept to understand.

 

A civil war just ended and TG on her doorstep; but Elayne is already taking actions to secure Andor post-TG. She is plotting to secure the Sun Throne. She maneuvered without the White Tower's prior approval to recruit the Kin to stay in Caemlyn and serve the Crown. And she is thinking that she doesn't want Andor as part of the Dragon's empire post-TG and is worried that Darlin might hold that empire if Rand dies. That hardly sounds like Elayne is overwhelmed by the impact of the civil war and TG preparations.

 

So your opinion that Elayne's viewpoint isn't clouded by circumstance is backed up by Elayne's viewpoint.

 

She was holding the Source, and had a ter'angreal that prevented anyone channeling at her.

 

I hardly think dealing with the BA is an ordinary task. Who was better qualified than her to deal with the BA? No-one, save perhaps the other AS - who were with her. And going without her would put Vandene at greater risk. In the dungeon, she was again the best choice for the job. Her doing it is thus reasonable in both cases.

 

Two points relevant to the Elayne's plan that might be worth considering:

 

- The original plan was for Elayne to interrogate one BA and leave; but when she saw 2 more BA arrive as well as a DF secretary as well as realize that the kin are no longer there, shouldn't she have known that the plan of handling 1 BA would not suffice and need to be changed. She had a gateway open to take her back to safety; but she stayed and faced the changed circumstances with the same plan "if I could fool one; then maybe I could fool the rest of them!"

 

- Elayne had no right to use Mat's terangreal for combat purposes. Her agreement with him was for testing.

 

Rand could have done something very simple: not say he was going to give the throne to Elayne. It wasn't his to give, and saying that undermines her. Simply take more care with his choice of words and the problem largely disappears.

 

Also, Gaebril might be a usurper, but he was (apparently) an Andoran usurper - he dethroned a queen who had made herself unpopular, so people had no reason to rise agaist him unless they were Morgase loyalists. But as it has already been established that Rahvin undermined all of Morgase's support (those are the guys who fled the capital, and had to reason to return under the new tyrant). Your claims get ever more laughable.

 

Let us take into account that Rand wanted the Throne for Elayne only; and he had to make that clear to all the houses. What if Pelivar & co. came up with the necessary support to put Dyelin or another good High Seat on the throne, would Rand have accepted it. In moving to Caemlyn Rand was walking on the edge of a sword to balance control of Andor for a short time and preventing anyone else from claiming the throne, even if legitimately. He wanted Andor and Cairhien under Elayne; because that best serves his interests for the LB. His calculations were BIGGER than Andor. And for that, I forgive him for ruffling a few Andoran feathers. TG is more important.

 

The second point is putting Gaebril and the Dragon Reborn (the latter a proven Andoran from the Two Rivers where the first one is ambiguously Andoran) in the same bracket. Andorans in Caemlyn saw the battle with the one power and saw the Trollocs and Fades that Rand and his army killed. So, I would venture to guess they see them differently.

 

Regardless, they know Rand saved them from a Foresaken and does not want to rule Andor like Tear and (later) Illian. He's promised to hand the throne back to Andorans. Regardless of how we look at it, Rand prevented a power vacuum from throwing Andor in more chaos by ruling Caemlyn for a few months.

 

Well, she does have a lot on her plate - from civil war to TG.

 

In the long term building up a spy network will indeed be vital. In the short term, it isn't really necessary. Eventually makes sense. Also, politics is more complicated than you make out.

 

Dyelin didn't seize the throne, but that doesn't indicate she has no designs on being a power behind the throne - and even if she doesn't Elayne doesn't want her to be seen as one. And bear in mind there are more people to convince than just the High Seats - there is also the general populace and foreign thrones. Yes, Elayne has to rely on those around her - but she cannot be seen to overrely on one particular person. That is the problem with Dyelin. If she is seen to be able to manage without Dyelin, all is well. Then Dyelin can be given greater responsibilities later. But now she needs to be seen to be able to function without her. Also, surely Elayne's views on Norry undermine your point - she doesn't consider replacing him to be a high priority, just something that must eventually be done.

 

For the first sentence, I refer you to my reply to Suttree's quote at the start of this reply. Elayne didn't seem overwhelmed with the impact of the civil war and TG preparation. She had a number of other large projects underway.

 

The second paragraph is where we disagree. I believe that a good Andoran spy network is more important than other projects Elayne is undertaken.

 

As to Dyelin, it is hard to see someone rejecting the Throne from Elayne and from the other High Seats having ambition to be the "power behind the throne." It is just that Elayne hasn't figured out how to deal with her. The best example I can cite is how Egwene reigned in Siuan right after she was raised as a puppet Amyrlin. She told her in no uncertain terms that she's boss and would have her as an advisor and ally. Siuan, who initially thought she could manipulate Egwene, accepted and understood her station.

 

As to Elayne's view on Norry undermining my point, that'll have me running in a circle. Since Dyelin was raised as a better candidate than Norry; and the opinion is that "eventually" was the problem that should be "as soon as possible" instead.

 

But later in the book, we have Morgase re-appear. She poses a bigger "behind the scene power" than Dyelin. Maybe Morgase can build Andor's spy-network!

 

i hate both Egwene and Elayne and hope they both die painful and traumatic deaths in AMOL.

 

I think you're gonna be disappointed :)

Edited by Theodril

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...

 

That was a very long post considering you are still avoiding the main issue. There is nothing else she could have realistically done given the resources available.

 

Which brings us back to my very first comment which Theodril has not been able to address.

 

As opposed to what? Ringing up dial-a-spy and perusing a few resumes?

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The notion that the leaders of the world still on the side of the Light that Rand has happened to save should indisputably and wholeheartedly be on Rand's side in every little thing is almost as insane as Rand ought to be.

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...

 

That was a very long post considering you are still avoiding the main issue. There is nothing else she could have realistically done given the resources available.

 

Which brings us back to my very first comment which Theodril has not been able to address.

 

As opposed to what? Ringing up dial-a-spy and perusing a few resumes?

 

I believe that a spy network is more important that a number of projects that Elayne gave priority to; and I believe that Dyelin would have been a very good person for the job.

 

I tried to convey this earlier; but I guess the posts were winded.

 

And as with all discussion, points were raised and replies were drawn from the participants. These discussions have a way of being non-too-linear.

Edited by Theodril

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egwene coz she owned everyone.

 

she's supreme. better than everyone else. who the hell is elayne? oh one of rand's slags. That's all she's known for. being rand al thor child bearer LMAO

 

I laugh at those who voted elayne. They must have read some other book. Now that is suspension of disbelief of whateva you wanna call it

Edited by Elan Tedronai

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egwene coz she owned everyone.

 

she's supreme. better than everyone else. who the hell is elayne? oh one of rand's slags. That's all she's known for. being rand al thor child bearer LMAO

 

I laugh at those who voted elayne. They must have read some other book. Now that is suspension of disbelief of whateva you wanna call it

 

I find your reasoning quite unsound. But actually quite funny. Especially when you compare her to Elayne (who actually had a realistic struggle for the throne)

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bububu realistic struggle

 

yeah yeah. egwene was too smart for elaida and the seanchan. Ever thought of that? no? Well there's your problem. She was too skilled, too smart and too canny. Elayne is just a bimbo. A hot bimbo i might add. That's why she struggled with the throne. And nearly got herself killed by some dumb black ajah members.

 

She should spend her time in rand's kitchen.

 

 

that part was a joke

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You can not possibly be serious.

 

I am quite serious. The sentence you referenced is linked to the last part of the same paragraph. It wasn't intended to be used alone without connection to the rest of the paragraph.

 

So, these uber-independent Andorans should have taken better care of their Kingdom if they didn't want Rand to intervene. And he was forced to act against Rahvin after believing that Rahvin killed Morgase. He didn't want to conquer Andor. But since they couldn't defeat Rahvin, they should have at least shown some gratitude and faith in their savior's promises.

From their point of view, there was no need to act against Rahvin - he was an Andoran who had just deposed an unpopular queen. Their independence is hardly hurt by this state of affairs - it's a purely internal matter, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Rand wasn't forced to act. He chose to, but he didn't have to. They have no reason to trust Rand, no reason to like him.

 

 

 

For the last time a civil war just ended, TG is on her doorstep and their are no better candidates to hand. What you say would be correct under normal circumstances but these are far from such. Numerous people at this point have tried to explain it you in this thread, I have no idea why this is such a hard concept to understand.

 

A civil war just ended and TG on her doorstep; but Elayne is already taking actions to secure Andor post-TG. She is plotting to secure the Sun Throne. She maneuvered without the White Tower's prior approval to recruit the Kin to stay in Caemlyn and serve the Crown. And she is thinking that she doesn't want Andor as part of the Dragon's empire post-TG and is worried that Darlin might hold that empire if Rand dies. That hardly sounds like Elayne is overwhelmed by the impact of the civil war and TG preparations.

But she can still only do so much. She has secured her kingdom, gained Cairhien, etc. She has also made a start on recruiting a spy network, but admits the man she has in charge will need replacing eventually. How much intelligence do you think she will gather about her rivals before TG? How much disruption will TG cause? Unless she can get spies in the Shadow's camp, spying is a lower priority than TG. She is doing enough, for now. There will be more to do later but it can wait.

 

 

 

So your opinion that Elayne's viewpoint isn't clouded by circumstance is backed up by Elayne's viewpoint.

 

She was holding the Source, and had a ter'angreal that prevented anyone channeling at her.

 

I hardly think dealing with the BA is an ordinary task. Who was better qualified than her to deal with the BA? No-one, save perhaps the other AS - who were with her. And going without her would put Vandene at greater risk. In the dungeon, she was again the best choice for the job. Her doing it is thus reasonable in both cases.

 

Two points relevant to the Elayne's plan that might be worth considering:

 

- The original plan was for Elayne to interrogate one BA and leave; but when she saw 2 more BA arrive as well as a DF secretary as well as realize that the kin are no longer there, shouldn't she have known that the plan of handling 1 BA would not suffice and need to be changed. She had a gateway open to take her back to safety; but she stayed and faced the changed circumstances with the same plan "if I could fool one; then maybe I could fool the rest of them!"

 

- Elayne had no right to use Mat's terangreal for combat purposes. Her agreement with him was for testing.

Of course she had a right to use the ter'angreal. Her life is more important than a mere trinket, so it is entirely unreasonable to say she should not use the trinket to protect herself. Also, why is the first point worth considering? Running away itself presents risks - they can attack right then and there. Attempting to bluff is the best way to escape without things turning violent. It didn't succeed, but the attempt was the best course of action she had.

 

 

 

Rand could have done something very simple: not say he was going to give the throne to Elayne. It wasn't his to give, and saying that undermines her. Simply take more care with his choice of words and the problem largely disappears.

 

Also, Gaebril might be a usurper, but he was (apparently) an Andoran usurper - he dethroned a queen who had made herself unpopular, so people had no reason to rise agaist him unless they were Morgase loyalists. But as it has already been established that Rahvin undermined all of Morgase's support (those are the guys who fled the capital, and had to reason to return under the new tyrant). Your claims get ever more laughable.

 

Let us take into account that Rand wanted the Throne for Elayne only; and he had to make that clear to all the houses. What if Pelivar & co. came up with the necessary support to put Dyelin or another good High Seat on the throne, would Rand have accepted it. In moving to Caemlyn Rand was walking on the edge of a sword to balance control of Andor for a short time and preventing anyone else from claiming the throne, even if legitimately. He wanted Andor and Cairhien under Elayne; because that best serves his interests for the LB. His calculations were BIGGER than Andor. And for that, I forgive him for ruffling a few Andoran feathers. TG is more important.

It's not a question of TG being more important. He could have done as he wished without ruffling Andoran feathers. The throne was not his to give. By stating that he wanted to give Elayne the throne, he turns the High Seats against her, thus making her job harder - in a way that could potentially impact negatively on TG. Rand is an inexperienced politician, and under a lot of pressure. Occasional mistakes can happen. But let us not try to pretend this was not a mistake. It was.

 

 

 

The second point is putting Gaebril and the Dragon Reborn (the latter a proven Andoran from the Two Rivers where the first one is ambiguously Andoran) in the same bracket. Andorans in Caemlyn saw the battle with the one power and saw the Trollocs and Fades that Rand and his army killed. So, I would venture to guess they see them differently.
The TR is a province that doesn't consider itself Andoran, is isolated from most of Andor, owes no loyalty to the Andoran queen. Further, this apparent TR man is backed by an army of black-veiled Aiel. At best he only has a weak loyalty to Andor. He gives every impression being a conqueror. And how many people in Camelyn saw Gaebril controlling Trollocs and Fades?

 

 

 

Regardless, they know Rand saved them from a Foresaken and does not want to rule Andor like Tear and (later) Illian. He's promised to hand the throne back to Andorans. Regardless of how we look at it, Rand prevented a power vacuum from throwing Andor in more chaos by ruling Caemlyn for a few months.
And in the process made sure that the power vacuum, when it arrived, was worse than it would have been had he not been so indelicate.

 

 

 

Well, she does have a lot on her plate - from civil war to TG.

 

In the long term building up a spy network will indeed be vital. In the short term, it isn't really necessary. Eventually makes sense. Also, politics is more complicated than you make out.

 

Dyelin didn't seize the throne, but that doesn't indicate she has no designs on being a power behind the throne - and even if she doesn't Elayne doesn't want her to be seen as one. And bear in mind there are more people to convince than just the High Seats - there is also the general populace and foreign thrones. Yes, Elayne has to rely on those around her - but she cannot be seen to overrely on one particular person. That is the problem with Dyelin. If she is seen to be able to manage without Dyelin, all is well. Then Dyelin can be given greater responsibilities later. But now she needs to be seen to be able to function without her. Also, surely Elayne's views on Norry undermine your point - she doesn't consider replacing him to be a high priority, just something that must eventually be done.

 

The second paragraph is where we disagree. I believe that a good Andoran spy network is more important than other projects Elayne is undertaken.

Why? A spy network is a means to an end - to find out what is going on elsewhere in the world. Of course, currently it is fairly well known what is going on. People are preparing for TG. The Shadow and the Seanchan are the two places that she really needs intelligence on. Infiltrating the Shadow to any significant degree cannot be done in time. The Seanchan have a network of secret police and informers. They are probably best placed to weed out anyone she sends in. After TG, when the nations will not have the threat of the Shadow as a unifying purpose, then it will be necessary to have spies to find out what is going on. For now, preparation for military action is most important. Future spying is less so. Thus the hunt for a new spy chief is not of paramount importance. Her interim spy chief suffices for now.

 

 

 

As to Dyelin, it is hard to see someone rejecting the Throne from Elayne and from the other High Seats having ambition to be the "power behind the throne."
A contradiction, surely? If one wished to be the power behind the throne, as opposed to the power on it, accepting the throne works against ones desires. If you want to be the power behind the throne, then you would not accept it.

 

 

 

As to Elayne's view on Norry undermining my point, that'll have me running in a circle. Since Dyelin was raised as a better candidate than Norry; and the opinion is that "eventually" was the problem that should be "as soon as possible" instead.
Dyelin was not raised as a better candidate. She was a candidate who is flawed, but for different reasons.

 

 

 

But later in the book, we have Morgase re-appear. She poses a bigger "behind the scene power" than Dyelin. Maybe Morgase can build Andor's spy-network!
And the problem presented by Morgase's return was raised - she is someone else Elayne cannot be seen to overrely on.

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I am quite serious. The sentence you referenced is linked to the last part of the same paragraph. It wasn't intended to be used alone without connection to the rest of the paragraph.

 

So, these uber-independent Andorans should have taken better care of their Kingdom if they didn't want Rand to intervene. And he was forced to act against Rahvin after believing that Rahvin killed Morgase. He didn't want to conquer Andor. But since they couldn't defeat Rahvin, they should have at least shown some gratitude and faith in their savior's promises.

From their point of view, there was no need to act against Rahvin - he was an Andoran who had just deposed an unpopular queen. Their independence is hardly hurt by this state of affairs - it's a purely internal matter, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Rand wasn't forced to act. He chose to, but he didn't have to. They have no reason to trust Rand, no reason to like him.

 

Not sure why Theodril would think the general populace actually knows Gaebril was Rahvin?

 

The second point is putting Gaebril and the Dragon Reborn (the latter a proven Andoran from the Two Rivers where the first one is ambiguously Andoran) in the same bracket. Andorans in Caemlyn saw the battle with the one power and saw the Trollocs and Fades that Rand and his army killed. So, I would venture to guess they see them differently.

The TR is a province that doesn't consider itself Andoran, is isolated from most of Andor, owes no loyalty to the Andoran queen. Further, this apparent TR man is backed by an army of black-veiled Aiel. At best he only has a weak loyalty to Andor. He gives every impression being a conqueror. And how many people in Camelyn saw Gaebril controlling Trollocs and Fades?

 

He would venture to guess wrong. We know what the people thought about Rand.

 

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

Edited by Suttree

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Definitely have to agree with those saying Egwene.

 

While neither of them are among my favorite characters, Elayne's arc started out in a bad way and didn't get much better.

 

I remember the first time I read the series just constantly groaning at Elayne's chapters. Her bi-polar attitude towards Rand, her neglect of her duties by sticking around Salidar then going off adventuring instead of going straight to Andor to claim the throne when her mother dies (leaving Rand to take care of Caemlyn, and then she has the nerve to actually get angry at him for saying he'd 'give' it to her, when he was the one who freed it from Rahvin and held it together while she was stomping around Ebou Dar). And as people here obviously agree, it doesn't get much better and mostly feels like an excuse to keep her busy leading up to later events.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, while somewhat less believable with the Accepted > Amyrlin Seat jump, afterwards was at least a lot more engaging. It felt like she had genuine challenges to face, and it was nice to see her slowly put the Hall, and the Aes Sedai in general, in their place. The scene where she declares war on Elaida is almost as satisfying as the conclusion Dumai's Wells for the 'seeing snotty Aes Sedai put down a few notches' factor.

 

While both of them dragged on a fair bit and a lot of the latter half of Egwene's plotline felt a little unnecessary, she had far more believable challenges to face, did them without being so whiney and irritating and immature.

Edited by Azrayne

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I remember the first time I read the series just constantly groaning at Elayne's chapters. Her bi-polar attitude towards Rand, her neglect of her duties by sticking around Salidar then going off adventuring instead of going straight to Andor to claim the throne when her mother dies (leaving Rand to take care of Caemlyn, and then she has the nerve to actually get angry at him for saying he'd 'give' it to her, when he was the one who freed it from Rahvin and held it together while she was stomping around Ebou Dar).

 

Neglect of her duties?!?! She placed the worlds welfare ahead of her political aspirations, that should be lauded. Not to mention where would Andor have been in a few months if the weather had not been fixed? That was just a tad more important than putting forth her claim.

 

As for Rand he was Steward for a short time and then handed the duties of to Dyelin long before Elayne arrived. He could have saved a world of trouble for everyone by not saying he was going to "give" her the throne(that wasn't his to give). If he had researched Andoran culture a bit he would have realized how much harm that little statement caused.

Edited by Suttree

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Neglect of her duties?!?! She placed the worlds welfare ahead of her political aspirations, that should be lauded. Not to mention where would Andor have been in a few months if the weather had not been fixed? That was just a tad more important than putting forth her claim.

 

She 'had' to go to Ebou Dar? Couldn't possibly let the others handle it? As far as I recall, once she got there she didn't do anything that couldn't have been done by the rest of them without her.

 

It might help if she'd actually justified it through that thought process. She never actually says or thinks that she's 'putting the good of the world ahead of her political aspirations,' she never even seems to acknowledge that Caemlyn is sitting there waiting for her, except to whine about how Rand has no right to say he'd 'give' it to her, nevermind that he's probably the only reason there was a Caemlyn to come back to.

 

Possession is 9/10ths of the law, after all. Rand was the one who rescued Caemlyn from Rahvin and Rand was the only reason it didn't fall to pieces or get snatched up by one of Elayne's competitors while she was running around Ebou Dar, if it wasn't for his teenage crush on her (it can hardly be called love when they barely know eachother) he would have put Dyelin on the throne and be done with it well before Elayne came back.

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Neglect of her duties?!?! She placed the worlds welfare ahead of her political aspirations, that should be lauded. Not to mention where would Andor have been in a few months if the weather had not been fixed? That was just a tad more important than putting forth her claim.

 

She 'had' to go to Ebou Dar? Couldn't possibly let the others handle it? As far as I recall, once she got there she didn't do anything that couldn't have been done by the rest of them without her.

 

It might help if she'd actually justified it through that thought process. She never actually says or thinks that she's 'putting the good of the world ahead of her political aspirations,' she never even seems to acknowledge that Caemlyn is sitting there waiting for her, except to whine about how Rand has no right to say he'd 'give' it to her, nevermind that he's probably the only reason there was a Caemlyn to come back to.

 

Possession is 9/10ths of the law, after all. Rand was the one who rescued Caemlyn from Rahvin and Rand was the only reason it didn't fall to pieces or get snatched up by one of Elayne's competitors while she was running around Ebou Dar, if it wasn't for his teenage crush on her (it can hardly be called love when they barely know eachother) he would have put Dyelin on the throne and be done with it well before Elayne came back.

 

1. Elayne was in on the orginal "need" search and was the one who had the building right. Nynaeve thought it had a different number of floors. Each person in ED played a specific role and had to be there else things would have ended far differentlly.

 

2. Elayne was by far the most experienced with weather of all the AS from her previous time with the WFs.

 

3. Rand never conquered Andor, he was merely Steward and had no right to give anything. He left the city and Dyelin was then Steward and she personally put down a claimant and rebellions with her own men. Again you seem to be missing the point, Rand rubbed everyone wrong saying he would "give" Elayne the throne and made the situation much more difficult. Either way Elayne had to put forth a claim and had to secure the proper votes. She did that all on her own. It was made very clear that Dyelin would never have thrown her support had she thought she could be handed the throne by Rand.

 

 

PoD, Ch. 28

 

"You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against? I have heard your name often on my way here.”

 

“Since you claim the throne by your own right, with.”

Edited by Suttree

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1. Elayne was in on the orginal "need" search and was the one who had the building right. Nynaeve thought it had a different number of floors. Each person in ED played a specific role and had to be there else things would have ended far differentlly.

 

But that search only led to them finding it because it told them the bowl was in Ebou Dar. Elayne could have just said, 'Ebou Dar, building in the slums with 6 floors, have fun.' Elayne could easily have been replaced by another Windfinder. Or anyone, really.

 

3. Rand never conquered Andor, he was merely Steward and had no right to give anyting. He left the city and Dyelein was then Steward and she personally put down a claimant and rebellions with her men. Again you seem to be missing the point, Rand rubbed everyone wrong saying he would "give" Elayne the throne and made the situation much more difficult. Either way Elayne had to put forth a claim and had to secure the proper votes. She did that all on her own. It was made very clear that Dyelin would never have thrown her support had she thought she could be handed the throne by Rand.

 

Like I said, possession is 9/10ths and all that. Technically he never conquered Cairhien or Illian either, and Tear is a little dubious too. The arguing about being given/claiming for herself is just semantics, the reality of the situation is that the only reason Elayne was able to come back and stake her claim was that Rand help the city together and kept the throne vacant for her. Without Rand, the city would still be in the grip of Rahvin. If Rand decided to be lazy and leave after killing him, the city would have fallen into Chaos. If Rand wasn't "in love" with Elayne, he could have just given the throne to Dyelin or someone else and let them rule Caemlyn if they agree to support him come the last battle.

 

Hell, the only reason he even went to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin was because he though R had killed Elayne's mum. He took it for her, held it together for her, waited for her while she's ignoring him and Andor both, then she has the nerve to get snotty because he worded his message the wrong way.

 

Regardless of why she did it, she made a choice to not go straight back to Andor. By doing so, she effectively ceded her right to the throne except through Rand, who currently held it. If she wanted to make an independent claim, the time to do that was as soon as her mother died.

 

it's kind of silly to argue about really. The reality is that it played out that way because RJ wanted to do more with Elayne before she claimed the Throne and settled down (in a manner of speaking). These are characters, not real people, and their actions are determined by the author, not by morals or logic.

Edited by Azrayne

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But that search only led to them finding it because it told them the bowl was in Ebou Dar. Elayne could have just said, 'Ebou Dar, building in the slums with 6 floors, have fun.' Elayne could easily have been replaced by another Windfinder. Or anyone, really.

 

Once again you seem to be forgetting that Nyn and Elayne were not in agreement over the number of floors. You are letting your dislike of the character cloud your judgement. Not only did she help save the world but there would have been nothing to rule had she not taken these actions.

 

Like I said, possession is 9/10ths and all that. Technically he never conquered Cairhien or Illian either, and Tear is a little dubious too. The arguing about being given/claiming for herself is just semantics, the reality of the situation is that the only reason Elayne was able to come back and stake her claim was that Rand help the city together and kept the throne vacant for her. Without Rand, the city would still be in the grip of Rahvin. If Rand decided to be lazy and leave after killing him, the city would have fallen into Chaos. If Rand wasn't "in love" with Elayne, he could have just given the throne to Dyelin or someone else and let them rule Caemlyn if they agree to support him come the last battle.

 

Yes he did conquer those other countries as evidence by allowing the Aiel to take the fifth. He is the ruler and conqueror in those situations, in Andor he was merely Steward. It is not semantics as the distinction is huge in world. Rand could not have "given" the throne to anyone, in point of fact Andor was ready to come against him had he overstayed his welcome.

 

LoC, Ch.16

 

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

In addition you continue to miss the point of why it made things so much more difficult saying he was going to "give" the throne to Elayne. It is made very clear in text that she could not take the city from Rand and even a General like Bashere spells out why she can't use Rand's men to help. Not to mention totally ignoring the fact that Rand was gone and Dyelin had been Steward(and put down a rebellion and arrested claimants with her own men) for some time before Elayne arrived. No one argues that Rand played a big role in clearing out a Forsaken and keeping things stable for a time(although it's comedy when newbs claim a city like Andor would have descended into chaos) but the facts remain Elayne put forth her own claim, held the city during civil war with her own men, and earned the votes all by herself.

Edited by Suttree

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Once again you seem to be forgetting that Nyn and Elayne were not in agreement over the number of floors. You are letting your dislike of the character cloud your judgement. Not only did she help save the world but there would have been nothing to rule had she not taken these actions.

 

Even if they knew nothing about the floors, they only found it because the Kin lead them there. Again, she was completely unnecessary there.

 

Yes he did conquer those other countries as evidence by allowing the Aiel to take the fifth. He is the ruler and conqueror in those situations, in Andor he was merely Steward. It is not semantics as the distinction is huge in world. Rand could not have "given" the throne to anyone, in point of fact Andor was ready to come against him had he overstayed his welcome.

 

The only reason he refused them the 5th in Caemlyn was because, to paraphrase, 'he didn't want to give a city that had been looted to Elayne.'

 

In addition you continue to miss the point of why it made things so much more difficult saying he was going to "give" the throne to Elayne. It is made very clear in text that she could not take the city from Rand and even a General like Bashere spells out why she can't use Rand's men to help. Not to mention totally ignoring the fact that Rand was gone and Dyelin had been Steward(and put down a rebellion and arrested claimants with her own men) for some time before Elayne arrived. No one argues that Rand played a big role in clearing out a Forsaken and keeping things stable for a time(although it's comedy when newbs claim a city like Andor would have descended into chaos) but the facts remain Elayne put forth her own claim, held the city during civil war with her own men, and earned the votes all by herself.

 

Refuse his help? His help is the only reason there was even a throne for her to claim. It's a bit too late to refuse help if it's already been given.

 

Let's do a little defining of terminology here:

 

give/giv/

Verb: Freely transfer the possession of (something) to (someone); hand over to: "they gave her water".

 

pos·ses·sion/pəˈzeSHən/

Noun:

  • The state of having, owning, or controlling something.
  • Visible power or control over something, as distinct from lawful ownership; holding or occupancy.

Rand 'gave' her Caemlyn, which he had 'possession' of. Rand had exclusive power over Caemlyn, he could have put anyone he chose on the throne and nobody would have been able to stop him. Therefore, he freely passed something in his possession to somebody else. What claim Elayne had to the Throne is irrelevant, if he chose to give it to someone else she couldn't have stopped him, the only difference between Elayne and Dyelin and whoever else is that Rand wanted to make babies with Elayne. If he had never met Elayne before, I doubt he would have even considered giving Caemlyn to a random princess from the white tower who was absent for months when he had a perfectly viable option right in front of him. The only reason she got the throne was because he chose her to have it. That's the definition of 'give.'

 

Right's don't come into it. Lets say someone steals a woman's wallet. Another man kills the first because he hates him, finds a wallet packed with cash in his pocket, and nabs it because hey, free money. Then the woman approaches him and says the wallet is hers and she wants it back. While she has a 'right' to the wallet, he's still the one currently in possession of it, therefor if he returns it, he's giving it. She can talk all she wants about how much right she has to the wallet, how much she needs her cards back, how hard she worked for the money, but at the end of the day it's still his decision as to whether to return it to her or keep it for himself or pass it to someone else. That's what the word means. Not a perfect analogy by far, but it helps to clarify on the definition of the term. When you have the option to pass possession to anyone you want, and you select one particular person, that's giving.'

 

Oh, and I don't dislike her actions because my view of them is shadowed by my dislike of Elayne. I dislike Elayne because my view of her is shadowed by her actions :)

Edited by Azrayne

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Even if they knew nothing about the floors, they only found it because the Kin lead them there. Again, she was completely unnecessary there.

 

How did they find the kin again? See you can not just take certain people out of the equation and think things will magically turn out the same. Multiple futures based on decisions and actions have been a major them in the WoT. Not to mention once again only Elayne and Nyn where in on the original "need" search. Of those two Elayne had it right. No one had any idea how they would find the bowl, they just knew those two had to go since they were the ones who had an idea of where it was. You can only judge their decision based on the info they had at the time. They didn't know the kin existed, nor did they know Elayne's skill would become secondary to the WFs.

 

Rand 'gave' her Caemlyn, which he had 'possession' of. Rand had exclusive power over Caemlyn, he could have put anyone he chose on the throne and nobody would have been able to stop him. Therefore, he freely passed something in his possession to somebody else. What claim Elayne had to the Throne is irrelevant, if he chose to give it to someone else she couldn't have stopped him, the only difference between Elayne and Dyelin and whoever else is that Rand wanted to make babies with Elayne. If he had never met Elayne before, I doubt he would have even considered giving Caemlyn to a random princess from the white tower who was absent for months when he had a perfectly viable option right in front of him. The only reason she got the throne was because he chose her to have it. That's the definition of 'give.'

 

Sigh. You really should spend some time exploring the site before you make faulty interpretations. Your viewpoint has been disproven again and again more times than I can count over the years. You continue to ignore key facts. For the last time, no one is arguing the fact that Rand defeated Rahvin and as Steward kept things stable for a time. But contrary to your claim he could not have "put anyone he chose on the throne". The quote I provided above shows what would have happened, the high seats and general populace would have come against him. Now Rand most likely would win that battle but it would have been un utterly phyrric victory which would have weakend the lights forces condsiderably. Secondly the fact that he was Steward not King is not an in world distinction you can just brush aside. He never claimed the crown. That is a major point with political ramifications. By your answers it is quite clear you have missed most of the subtle distinctions as to why he could not "give" Elayne the throne from a cultural perspective and why Bashere states Elayne can't use Rands men to secure it. It is made perfectly clear in the text that she can be seen to take his help in winning the crown.(Yes we know, Rand defeated Rahvin and kept the peace for a time. That isn't the point.)

 

Lastly I have no idea why Elayne would be "some random princess" if her and Rand were not dating. Either way she is Daughter-Heir and could have put forth a claim. The High-Seats would not have excepted Rand "giving" the throne to anyone. Whoever it was would still have to earn the votes. Which Elayne upon returning to a city of which Dyelin had controlled for some time went on to do. Regardless I continue to provide quotes backing my points while you just offer skewed perspective after perspective. That isn't how debates work around these parts. You need to do a bit better than that.

Edited by Suttree

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From their point of view, there was no need to act against Rahvin - he was an Andoran who had just deposed an unpopular queen. Their independence is hardly hurt by this state of affairs - it's a purely internal matter, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Rand wasn't forced to act. He chose to, but he didn't have to. They have no reason to trust Rand, no reason to like him.

 

Tear and Illian believed the Rand had saved them from two Foresaken who were a High Lords in both countries. But the Andorans don't have a reason to like or trust believe Rand, or believe that he killed a Foresaken in Caemlyn!

 

 

But she can still only do so much. She has secured her kingdom, gained Cairhien, etc. She has also made a start on recruiting a spy network, but admits the man she has in charge will need replacing eventually. How much intelligence do you think she will gather about her rivals before TG? How much disruption will TG cause? Unless she can get spies in the Shadow's camp, spying is a lower priority than TG. She is doing enough, for now. There will be more to do later but it can wait.

 

Depends on where one sees priorities. For example, Elenia's husband has a rebel army inside Andor that Elayne hasn't located yet! And there is information on an impending Shadow invasion that Elayne hasn't figured out yet.

 

Hypothetically, all she needed to do was ask Egwene for help to question the BA (the BA hunters trick of freeing them of all previous oaths, then question them) and on the invasion (Egwene knows about the Caemlyn Waygate). But that will lead us down a different discussion!

 

Of course she had a right to use the ter'angreal. Her life is more important than a mere trinket, so it is entirely unreasonable to say she should not use the trinket to protect herself. Also, why is the first point worth considering? Running away itself presents risks - they can attack right then and there. Attempting to bluff is the best way to escape without things turning violent. It didn't succeed, but the attempt was the best course of action she had.

 

Re: Mat's terangreal: I won't go into an ownership rights discussion here. The point is that she electively used what did not belong to her in a situation that was not life-threatening (as in someone coming after her in her own bedroom and her being forced to defend herself).

 

As to the second point, it was to show that her original plan (and all the back ups and precautions) were on handling/questioning one Black Ajah prisoner. It was not a plan designed to deal with a threat of 3 BA and 2 Darkfriends. So, the original plan was not appropriate to deal with the new threats.

 

It's not a question of TG being more important. He could have done as he wished without ruffling Andoran feathers. The throne was not his to give. By stating that he wanted to give Elayne the throne, he turns the High Seats against her, thus making her job harder - in a way that could potentially impact negatively on TG. Rand is an inexperienced politician, and under a lot of pressure. Occasional mistakes can happen. But let us not try to pretend this was not a mistake. It was.

 

Rand's problem is that he, by choice, didn't want to rule Andor. If he wanted, all he had to do was establish his bloodline. He was Tigraine's son! So, his blood is more bloody Andoran than Gaebril! But his only concern with his genetics was whether that blood prevents him from bedding Elayne, not ruling Andor.

 

The catch is that Andorans wanted their independence; and Rand worked to give it to them. They wanted him to fight the DO in Shayol Ghul, not rule Andor. Fine, would killing a Foresaken be in the Dragon's job description? Well, he did that. Would securing two kingdoms under one ruler, a homegrown one who is also an ally, serve his plan for TG? Probably! That is why I see Rand's strategy in Andor as serving TG, not ruling and governing and infringing on Andoran "independence."

 

Maybe Rahvin succeeded in leaving Andor unable to govern herself. If Andor was in shape to rule itself, Rand would not have stayed there. Maybe he should have killed Rahvin and left. But was there any guarantee that another Foresaken would not fill the vacuum?

 

And how many people in Camelyn saw Gaebril controlling Trollocs and Fades?

 

There was a battle with the one power; and then there was a battle between Aiel and Shadowspan that left thousands of corpses. I would presume that Caemlyn's population is aware that a battle took place in the inner city; and they would see the bodies being disposed of.

 

 

 

A contradiction, surely? If one wished to be the power behind the throne, as opposed to the power on it, accepting the throne works against ones desires. If you want to be the power behind the throne, then you would not accept it.

 

That's like someone who rejects to become a billionaire and instead wants to be the billionaire's top CEO or advisor! Maybe Dyelin is like that. I don't know!

 

Dyelin was not raised as a better candidate. She was a candidate who is flawed, but for different reasons.

 

Agreed! She is flawed for political reasons, not her capacity to lead the spy-network.

 

 

And the problem presented by Morgase's return was raised - she is someone else Elayne cannot be seen to overrely on.

 

With Morgase in town, people would no longer consider Dyelin a power behind the throne.

Edited by Theodril

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Rand never claimed the crown in Tear or Cairhien..yet he allowed the Aiel to take the fifth in both places. Obviously the only reason he did not allow the Aiel to take the fifth in Caemlyn was because he loved Elayne. Not because he could not or be prevented from it by any local resistance.

Edited by XXX47

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Rand never claimed the crown in Tear or Cairhien..yet he allowed the Aiel to take the fifth in both places. Obviously the only reason he did not allow the Aiel to take the fifth in Caemlyn was because he loved Elayne. Not because he could not or be prevented from it by any local resistance.

 

Don't think anyone said he couldn't have done it. The fact remains he ruled and conquered in both Tear and Cairhien. In Andor he liberated and was Steward. There is a difference.

Edited by Suttree

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