Nynaeve...Hero of the Horn

[Mubz]

We all know that Rand is a Hero of the Horn, is it that Nynaeve is also a hero of the Horn. This thought only came across my head while re-reading The Shadow Rising, in chapter 52 "Need". When Nynaeve is talking to Birgette, she wonders how she knows her name. Ok Birgitte replies by saying that she had heard it and seen her before. But what if is possible that she is a hero of the Horn and Birgitte recognised her.

 

Also who else would you say might be a Hero of the Horn and who might become a Hero of the Horn. I think that the following might be a Hero of the Horn:

• Obviously Birgitte

• Mat

• Perrin

• Moiraine

• This one is a bit odd but could you have Elayne, Min and Avindha actually being one person from the TAR but separate in this birth.

• Lastly maybe Egwene because all of the super-girls just seem to good to be true and come in the middle of a dip in Aes Sedai form.

 

Your ideas will be appreciated....

[Majsju]

 

• This one is a bit odd but could you have Elayne, Min and Avindha actually being one person from the TAR but separate in this birth.

 

 

This one is a definite no. Souls can not be split. As for the rest, impossible to say, but hopefully not.

 

And Birgitte knowing Nynaeves name...IF Nynaeve had been a Hero, Birgitte would have known her under a different name...

[Mubz]

 

• This one is a bit odd but could you have Elayne, Min and Avindha actually being one person from the TAR but separate in this birth.

 

 

This one is a definite no. Souls can not be split. As for the rest, impossible to say, but hopefully not.

 

And Birgitte knowing Nynaeves name...IF Nynaeve had been a Hero, Birgitte would have known her under a different name...

 

Yeh I thought so but thought lets just put it on.

[Skeeve the Great]

I have the following problems with this:

 

1) With the exception of LTT, there are no other channelers in the HoH list. All of them are regular people destined to make legendary stuff in their lives. You could even argue that LTT included in the list is a mistake, unless you consider the whole save-the-world type of deal. So, if we exclude channelers from "qualified" to be HoH, that leaves Mat and Perrin.

 

2) From the very rare exceptions of Hawkwing and LTT, none of the HoH are ta'veren. At least we never heard of any of those guys and gals to be one. And we had a plenty of opportunity to hear it. That alone should disqualify Mat and Perrin.

 

3) But if we consider ta'veren to be qualified, there are still no legendary staff that we can count as worthy of HoH status. Yes, Mat did amazing battles with his Army, but we heard of amazing Generals in past and present and none of them is that much worse than Mat. You could look at what Ituralde did defending Maradon and you can easily see what I mean. Perrin did even less than Mat in this regard.

 

And finally, I personally see HoHs as someone brought up to the world as regular person and during his/her repeated lives did amazing and legendary things. Granted "amazing and legendary" is subjective thing. But if you can think of a person that the whole world think is legendary - then probably he/she is qualified.

 

That brings us to Lan. I'm inclined to beleive that either he's HoH re-born or soon-to-be HoH. He's status is legendary among all nations in Randland. Even Aiel.

[Sharaman]

Jain Charin perhaps?

[Thrasymachus]

Ta'veren is not something you're born with and have until you die. The Pattern chooses out your thread to weave others around for a time, one can be ta'veren for days, months or years, but being ta'veren is not a special status you're guaranteed to have forever. Other Heroes can certainly be ta'veren for a time, though probably not as strongly, when they're doing whatever it is they're doing that's important to the Pattern.

 

As for Heros of the Horn not being channelers, says who? It seems odd to have an exception for Lews Therin but not for anybody else. If Heros are ordinary folk (or not so ordinary, Hawkwing was born a noble, after all) destined to make legends of their lives, then Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Aviendha all seem to qualify, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Elayne, Lan and Moiraine are as well.

 

The only two people we know for certain are Heroes of the Horn that are currently alive are Birgitte and Rand. Her knowing Nynaeve's name without being told is suggestive, but extremely weak evidence for Nynaeve being a Hero as well. Given the mythological archetypes filled by Mat and Perrin, and how the Heroes act towards them at Falme, it would be far from unreasonable to suggest that they are also Heroes. But there's really no way to tell one way or the other whether anybody else is, without future scenes which suggest or make it explicit.

[Mubz]

I have the following problems with this:

 

1) With the exception of LTT, there are no other channelers in the HoH list. All of them are regular people destined to make legendary stuff in their lives. You could even argue that LTT included in the list is a mistake, unless you consider the whole save-the-world type of deal. So, if we exclude channelers from "qualified" to be HoH, that leaves Mat and Perrin.

 

2) From the very rare exceptions of Hawkwing and LTT, none of the HoH are ta'veren. At least we never heard of any of those guys and gals to be one. And we had a plenty of opportunity to hear it. That alone should disqualify Mat and Perrin.

 

3) But if we consider ta'veren to be qualified, there are still no legendary staff that we can count as worthy of HoH status. Yes, Mat did amazing battles with his Army, but we heard of amazing Generals in past and present and none of them is that much worse than Mat. You could look at what Ituralde did defending Maradon and you can easily see what I mean. Perrin did even less than Mat in this regard.

 

And finally, I personally see HoHs as someone brought up to the world as regular person and during his/her repeated lives did amazing and legendary things. Granted "amazing and legendary" is subjective thing. But if you can think of a person that the whole world think is legendary - then probably he/she is qualified.

 

That brings us to Lan. I'm inclined to beleive that either he's HoH re-born or soon-to-be HoH. He's status is legendary among all nations in Randland. Even Aiel.

 

Just asking but where does it say that there are no channelers connected to the Hero of the Horn?

 

And it is possible that Hawkwing was only ta'veren in his latest encounter with the flesh world. It might be that a lot of the other times he was not ta'veren

[Mubz]

Ta'veren is not something you're born with and have until you die. The Pattern chooses out your thread to weave others around for a time, one can be ta'veren for days, months or years, but being ta'veren is not a special status you're guaranteed to have forever. Other Heroes can certainly be ta'veren for a time, though probably not as strongly, when they're doing whatever it is they're doing that's important to the Pattern.

 

As for Heros of the Horn not being channelers, says who? It seems odd to have an exception for Lews Therin but not for anybody else. If Heros are ordinary folk (or not so ordinary, Hawkwing was born a noble, after all) destined to make legends of their lives, then Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve and Aviendha all seem to qualify, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Elayne, Lan and Moiraine are as well.

 

The only two people we know for certain are Heroes of the Horn that are currently alive are Birgitte and Rand. Her knowing Nynaeve's name without being told is suggestive, but extremely weak evidence for Nynaeve being a Hero as well. Given the mythological archetypes filled by Mat and Perrin, and how the Heroes act towards them at Falme, it would be far from unreasonable to suggest that they are also Heroes. But there's really no way to tell one way or the other whether anybody else is, without future scenes which suggest or make it explicit.

 

 

You beat me to it

[Durinax]

actually I would argue that Heroes are corrective measures in the pattern much like Taveren.

 

 

In fact there are two siblings mentioned who are supposed to herald the end of an age.

 

 

 

As for LTT and Hawkwing being exceptions in this case, remember Taveren are only a temporary buff so to speak.

[A Rant Lord]

You all give names of people that might be HoH or would certainly be qualified for HoH, I think it´s absolutely appaling I haven´t read Verin´s name!!

Any idea what that woman´s been through in her quest to be the noose of the Black Ajah? The only problem is that she acted in secrecy whereas Lan doesn't, imo she has just as much right to qualify as a HoH as Lan.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Don't feel bad. I've seen almost every major character (and plenty of minor ones) put forth as either a reborn Hero or a possible new Hero. I guarantee Verin's been mentioned, if not in this thread.

[Thrasymachus]

As far as I can tell, this thread is really just about whether Nynaeve is a Hero. If we were to make a list of all the people who could qualify as being potential Heroes, that list would comprise all the main cast and nearly every secondary and tertiary character who was decent and brave or risked a lot for the Light and won, everyone from Janduin to Olver, Nicola to Tylin. One could make a case that any one of them could be, or should be a Hero, but we don't know whether they are Heroes or not because that's apparently the way the rules work. To be honest, I'd be surprised if there were very many Heroes still in TaR at all, we know from Falme there's not many, and if there's one time you'd want to put all your big players in play, the ultimate confrontation between the Dark One and the Light would be it.

[Tom Sawyer]

Lan's definitely one and probably Gawyn and Galad too - there's a reason that they were given Arthurian-based names.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lan's definitely one and probably Gawyn and Galad too - there's a reason that they were given Arthurian-based names.

 

That may be reading too much into things. After all, how can this be ( among others ) an Arturian based story without at least few Knights of the Round Table. IIRC, there was a Sir Bors, as well. Our Bors was anything but a Knight of the Round Table.

 

And if we're going to talk the Arthurian Myth, which one? There are dozens. Each related in some ways and distinct in others. The earliest had him conquering all of Great Britain, and all of Northern and Western Europe as well. That sounds much more like Artur Hawkwing than Rand al Thor. Lancelot and many of the others were late additions to the mythology.

[dEVabox]

Sorry to break off from this, but WHERE does it say Rand is a Hero of the Horn?

[Thrasymachus]

It's been a while since I've read that book, but I believe it is during the episode at Falme, after Mat blows the Horn, and the Heroes who haven't yet been spun back out into their lives come riding down from the sky on clouds or fog or whatever. They stop for a nice little chat, where Artur Hawkwing heavily implies, if not stating it outright, that Rand, Mat and Perrin are fellow Heroes, and I believe he also implies that Ingtar will be joining the Heroes once he's settled into the afterlife a bit since his death was so recent.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I don't think it was every explicitly said in the books (though you could argue it's implied). But RJ and Sanderson have both confirmed this.

[Thrasymachus]

Thanks, Imerickson, that's pretty much the way I remember it. It always makes me laugh to think that Ingtar is now a Hero, but didn't show up at Falme like the other Heroes even though he's already dead by that point. Like he's still going through afterlife orientation and registration, being assigned rooms, shown where the bathroom is, that sort of thing.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Hawking implies Rand is a HoH, but there is no reference made about Mat, Perrin or Ingtar. IIRC Hurin makes a reference about how few heroes there are and Hawkwing answers that it takes more than bravery in one life to become a HoH. Also something about the rarity of new heroes being added. I will have to re-read that passage.

[Thrasymachus]

Jordan confirmed Rand as a Hero, and RAFOed Mat and Perrin being Heroes. IIRC, Hawkwing calls Mat "Hornsounder" but otherwise makes no reference to any prior lives he or Perrin may have led. I got the definite sense they were, though, in reading the scene, and I get the sense in reading their later scenes what with all the archetypal behavior and character they exhibit but that's all it was. And he all but calls Rand a fellow Hero, calling him by Lews Therin and talking about how well he knows his soul. But at the end of the day, I don't get the feeling that it's all that important. We don't have any evidence to tell whether they are or aren't Heroes, except for Rand, and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the story either way, at least so far. Unless that pull-Rand-out-of-Tel'aran-Rhiod-to-save-his-life-after-the-Last-Battle theory turns out to be true, and Perrin or somebody needs it done to them too.

[Sharaman]

Jordan confirmed Rand as a Hero, and RAFOed Mat and Perrin being Heroes. IIRC, Hawkwing calls Mat "Hornsounder" but otherwise makes no reference to any prior lives he or Perrin may have led. I got the definite sense they were, though, in reading the scene, and I get the sense in reading their later scenes what with all the archetypal behavior and character they exhibit but that's all it was. And he all but calls Rand a fellow Hero, calling him by Lews Therin and talking about how well he knows his soul. But at the end of the day, I don't get the feeling that it's all that important. We don't have any evidence to tell whether they are or aren't Heroes, except for Rand, and it doesn't make a bit of difference to the story either way, at least so far. Unless that pull-Rand-out-of-Tel'aran-Rhiod-to-save-his-life-after-the-Last-Battle theory turns out to be true, and Perrin or somebody needs it done to them too.

Yes - this is arguably why it's important.

The Moggy-Brigitte-Nyn-Elayne nexus shows it can be done (TFoH).

The "Live you must die" prophesy makes it likely Rand will need this.

The TGH conversation at Falme indicates that Rand is a HotH.

Otherwise it's not likely to be a very strong plot element though it is good world-building of course.

[Thrasymachus]

In fact, that's exactly why I don't put much credence into the whole "pull Rand from TaR after he dies" idea. It's been done, and once it's been done once, if you do it again it becomes no longer taboo, there's no reason at all not to pull Hawkwing, or Paedrig or any of the other Heroes out whenever you feel like you need some backup, or three days after they've died or whatever. It's too trite. Whatever happens during and after the Last Battle, how Rand dies and whether or how he survives his death (that's an odd phrase), will probably be completely unique, something no one could anticipate or properly explain.

[thedragonstar]

I have long hoped Nyneave and Lan were, tied to each other, but in this life their path was to be more hidden, protecting/aiding fate, while protected as maybe failsafes by not being on foretellings. I wonder if her block could have help hide her soul from being know, otherwise Moggys knowing who Brigette was in tAoL is problematic.

 

I have so many ffic ideas about this....arches that make her remember who she is, peace to plan her/Lans death, not ok with her living if he doesn't, I see the Queen of Manatherns end more likely (their most recent life?).

 

I always wondered if there are ages w/o channeling. Also maybe hoh channlers are more common in some ages, or plan different kinds of roles, not just battles, so in this age not as recognized.

 

As to Mat...his strength comes in part from other souls, weakens his canidacy imo.

[dEVabox]

As to Mat...his strength comes in part from other souls, weakens his canidacy imo.

 

Same soul, different lives. It's only Mat's theory that the Fins gave him memories from people the Fins met, but it is highly doubtful (how many of those men he remembers had visited Fins?).

 

And quite the opposite actually: All of Mat's lives were big army type guys. It's one thing to be a farmer in one life and then a soldier in another, but in Mat's lives he was always a prominent person / legend-maker. And I think that Brigitte and someone or something (not only the prophecies) keeps referencing him as a big gambler, especially in relation to battles.

[Thrasymachus]

Sorry, no that's wrong. Mat's memories are not all from his previous lives, and they are in fact the memories of men who had visited the land of the Finns, either through the doorframe ter'angreal or through the Tower of Ghengi.

 

From the horse's mouth himself:

 

INTERVIEW: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Are all of Mat’s memories from his past lives?

ROBERT JORDAN

No, Mat’s “old” memories are not from his past lives at all. The “sickness” he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the “doorframe” ter’angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said – not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter’angreal he had used – was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter’angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter’angreal to some other world, the memories he received were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

FOOTNOTE

RJ is obviously talking about the memories Mat received from the Eelfinn, so this quote does not rule out past life memories as an explanation for the Aemon memories in The Dragon Reborn Chapter 19 (before Mat ever visited the Aelfinn or the Eelfinn), nor does the Dromen and Demonen chat rule out the Old Blood as an explanation. Also, RJ meant to say that most of the men who provided the memories went through the Tower of Ghenjei; he corrected himself later in the TOR Questions of the Week.