What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[rana02n]

I just registered here with the sole purpose of stating my opinion on Egwene. I hate that bitch passionately. I don't need to justify my hatred. Why not we who dislike her open a thread saying "Why all the Egwene love"? But we are not doing it.

 

Egwene is a Marry sue. The fact of the matter is if you write a Mary sue, you will not get published. But RJ got away with it. And we haven't been reading any Mary sue for soo long, since no publisher is fool enough to do so, that we didn't see it for what it was at first.

 

Either Egwene is a super duper "optimus prime" super mode Taveren. The Queen taveren or a total Mary sue. Rand, Mat and Perrin is/are constantly struggling with every other damn things, and with so much potential they are still at a draw back.

 

Where is the thread with "Why the Rand hate"?

 

Rand who has Lews Therins Telamons experience, Who is the strongest Taveren, doesn't find things this easy.Every character has there up and down, except Mary sue.

 

Having said that, every one is entitled to their opinion, and people can't help but feel hatred when they read a character that shows the ummm...properties they dislike. Egwene displays every emotion every characteristic I dislike.

 

Having said that many of the female in WOT is unreasonable or know it all, but for some reason I don't hate them. I liked Siuan when she was Amyrlin, like Aviendha, Sorele, Caduanue(Who slapped my favorite character "Rand" and humiliated him). So why I like Cadsuanue and Naynave? I like Nynave next to Aviendha.

 

People are so zombified with "the career deal",meaning you are slaving for a corporate, they now forgot about family, friends etc. Egwene shows all this mindless "whoring for corporate", in her ambition for a corporate defined "career", to be "Amyrlin seat". Mat, Perrin, Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, Min every one shows humanity and compassion, she is devoid of it.

 

Even before she knew she can channel, she was too good to be a Sheepherds wife, wanted to experience the world(another corporate brainwashing to use slave labour).So she wants to be Amyrlin to save the world is total bullshit. She wanted a "career" long before she knew she can channel, long before she knew dragon was born.

 

And yeah, this is my first post. That should make it clear to every egwene lover the intensity of my hatred. Feel thy Hatred Egwene and burn to cinder. *lol*.

[rana02n]

Again I must insist, Egewene is either a Mary sue, or "Optimus Prime" super mode Taveren.

[rana02n]

I at least always read that making AS DaSatang was a part of an attempt by the WOs to undermine them. To make an average Aiel feel that AS are not a big deal. Eggy knows all that and she is taking advantage of their insecurities.

 

Well then you always read wrong because they did not declare all AS datsang. They only did so to those who kidnapped Rand. You seriously are sounding like a conspiracy theorist at this point. It's approaching Felix Pax/Dida territory. Give over mate.

 

And conspiracy doesn't exist? You prove that you are defined by conformist attitude that uses words like "prude",narrow minded, "conspiracy theory" to discredit any one who object to any anti-family attitude in modern days. So it is a status quoe to not to be a "conspiracy theorist", even when there may be.

 

I guess RJ is a nut job then, Since he writes about a lot of "conspiracy" done by the antagonist. Since it is not fashionable, Rand should not try to figure out or investigate any conspiracy theory in WOT.

 

Real world has some things common with action thriller, in which "the conspiracy" does exist in both. But oh no, we are living in a civilized world, where there is no wars. And u do realize "conspiracy" usually precede a war, don't you. I don't want war, my cousin who is in defence doesn't want war, nobody wants war, but the history tells us otherwise.

[Guest PiotrekS]

There is one thing that's interesting about Egwene's arc for me - for most parts, it is the only part of the book where it is difficult for me to recognize what was written by RJ and what by BS. Unless you assume that certain humanizing of Egwene in ToM must have come from Brandon. Apart from that, especially in books 10-12, that's where RJ's writing comes closest to Brandon's.

 

Let those who have eyes, see and draw the conclusions

Edited November 8, 2012 by PiotrekS

[David Selig]

Egwene is a Marry sue. The fact of the matter is if you write a Mary sue, you will not get published.

I really don't think so. The definition of Mary Sue is quite vague these days, but IMO plenty of bestsellers and hundreds if not thousands of other books published each year feature blatant cases of Mary Sues.

[thom_merrilin]

When I started reading the series, 20 years ago I liked Egwene for the first few books. Then I go the feeling she thought she knew what was best for everyone. She certainly after she became Amyrilin thinks she knows what is best for the entire world. She is not even prepared to listen to Rand. No, she knows best. While she has has good teachers in Suian and the WO's, does she really think she knows better? After all Rand knows what LTT did wrong, and is now going to fix that. But, no Egwene has to stick her nose in and possibly mess it up.

She has developed well, but has got slightly arrogant, however most of the characters show that, some in spades - Cadsuane, and early Nynaeve.

[shortkut]

Elayne shows compassion? From her own POV we see how she thinks about how she can use everyone and every situation to her advantage

[David Selig]

Elayne shows compassion?

Of course she does, plenty of times. Her first onscreen act in the series is taking care of an injured stranger (Rand) and getting in trouble because of it. Another example from WH:

 

"Watching a dull-eyed woman stagger through the crowd clutching a small child on her shoulder, Elayne fumbled a coin from her purse and handed it to one of the Guards, an apple-cheeked woman with cold eyes. Tzigan claimed to be from Ghealdan, the daughter of a minor noble; well, she might be Ghealdanin, at least. When the Guardswoman leaned down to proffer the coin, the woman with her child staggered on by unheeding, unseeing. There were too many in the city like that. The Palace fed thousands every day, at kitchens set up throughout the city, but too many could not even summon the energy to collect their bread and soup. Elayne offered a prayer for mother and child as she dropped the coin back into her purse.

“You cannot feed everyone,” Sareitha offered quietly.

“Children are not allowed to starve in Andor,” Elayne said, as if issuing a decree. But she did not know how to stop it. Food was still plentiful in the city, but no command could force people to eat."

[EmperorAllspice]

I just don't like her now that she's learned how to act all Aes Sedai-y. and has been treating Nynaeve like garbage... poor Nynaeve :(

 

(is at the beginning of LOC)

[Yosarian]

She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

Eh, I don't know if that's true. Rand didn't try very hard to convince her. It was more like "Hey, Egwene. Nice place you have here. Whelp, I'm going to go smash the seals to the Dark One's prison. See you later."

[Morden]

She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

Eh, I don't know if that's true. Rand didn't try very hard to convince her. It was more like "Hey, Egwene. Nice place you have here. Whelp, I'm going to go smash the seals to the Dark One's prison. See you later."

 

There was no way he could convince her which would have been timely or productive, by doing what he did, it spurred her into action to get EVERY single king,queen and army there that she could in an effort to stop him from breaking them. Do you honestly think those nobles would have agreed to go if they knew that Rand was about to start Tarmon Gai'don? I dont I think they would have been wicked pissed and tried anything they could to stop him and it would most likely not have been the peaceful protest Egwene is trying to arrange...

 

It was the best call by all accounts, granted I think he's being a bit precipitous as he still doesnt know how to make it all work out and is going on the assumption that the pattern is weaving the threads towards this conclusion and that it will show him the way to go... chances are he's right but if hes wrong?... well that would be a big "oops my bad..."

[Suttree]

She certainly after she became Amyrilin thinks she knows what is best for the entire world. She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

It isn't that she knows best and wasn't prepared to listen. In fact to the contrary she tried to discuss it...

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

From their Rand refused and gave a flippant response. We as readers know that he was antagonizing her on purpose and he didn't actually have a plan at that point. He is hoping Min finds the answers for him. Further people should withhold judgment until after they read the AMoL pre materials.

 

As for Elayne David is quite right. Elayne shows a great deal of compassion, especially when it comes to her country. It is made quite clear the weight she feels in being a great Queen and doing right by Andorans.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Suttree
spoilers to be safe.

[Morden]

 

As for Elayne David is quite right. Elayne shows a great deal of compassion, especially when it comes to her country. It is made quite clear the weight she feels in being a great Queen and doing right by Andorans.

 

In the early books she also drives Nynaeve crazy how she is constantly giving out gold to people especially between Tear and their journey that leads to Salidar, she's very compassionate in many ways even if it does come off as a little snooty-nose in the air sometimes, but she is a noble afterall and most aristocrats couldnt give two figs about commoners so she is quite remarkable in that respect.

[EmperorAllspice]

Being nice every now and then doesn't make a character likeable imo. Egwene isn't wrong enough for me to ignore her arrogance

[shortkut]

She certainly after she became Amyrilin thinks she knows what is best for the entire world. She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

It isn't that she knows best and wasn't prepared to listen. In fact to the contrary she tried to discuss it...

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

From their Rand refused and gave a flippant response. We as readers know that he was antagonizing her on purpose and he didn't actually have a plan at that point. He is hoping Min finds the answers for him. Further people should withhold judgement until learn more about the situation than just that one meeting.

 

As for Elayne David is quite right. Elayne shows a great deal of compassion, especially when it comes to her country. It is made quite clear the weight she feels in being a great Queen and doing right by Andorans.

she feels more compassion towards strangers because they are her responsibility as her subjects. Her friends are all pawns to be used as long as they are healthy

[TNine]

Elayne shows compassion? From her own POV we see how she thinks about how she can use everyone and every situation to her advantage

Those aren't mutually exclusive traits. If she wasn't doing the second, she would be a pretty crappy politician.

 

We see Aveindha's point of view on Elayne's thinking. She would do what is right, and make sure she benefited as much as possible from it--feed the hungry, then use their loyalty. The first is showing empathy, the second is showing pragmatism.

[driedraspberry]

Egwene is a Marry sue. The fact of the matter is if you write a Mary sue, you will not get published.

I really don't think so. The definition of Mary Sue is quite vague these days, but IMO plenty of bestsellers and hundreds if not thousands of other books published each year feature blatant cases of Mary Sues.

 

This. They're a must in particularly popular ya (is WoT considered ya?). Ginny Weasley, Bella Swan, Katniss Everdeen...

[Saken]

Suttree, channeler exchange program is hilarious.

 

I see mud's point and when I read that exchange I got the same thing out of it. It seemed that Egwene, while appearing to be magnanimous (not sure if that is the correct word), was really trying to grow the white tower for the future. She put the caveat in the agreement saying that these women had to go back to their respective cultures for a specific amount of time and after they could come back if they desired. I believe that she thinks that when they get a taste of the big city or however you want to phrase it, they will want to return after that specific amount of time.

 

She also realizes that her AS getting trained by these other cultures is an excellent thing however, how many of them will really want to stay in cultures that are much more difficult than a life in the WT.

 

All in all, this is a good deal for her and in the end she will have grown the WT while depleting the number of channelers in the Aiel and WFs, making the WT the supreme female channeler organization (FCO).

 

I agree that there is some additional enlightenment with Egwene and her thoughts in the newly released materials however, this in no way diminishes my thoughts on Egwene from our previous discussion. I still get the feeling that she feels the need to guide everyone she comes in contact. Rand has his own twenty something years of life experience as well as LTT. He will also have Moraine, Cadsuane, Nynaeve, and his other senior advisers to lean on during the LB yet Egwene and the foolish women of the WT that a young girl had to fix, has the nerve to question him.

 

In the end, this may actually be how he saves the day with Egwene giving him some miraculous insight on how to defeat the DO. If this happens, I will be one angry dude and appalled.

 

Personally, I hope she joins forces with the Forsaken, kills Elayne after she has her children (I am not that cruel), gets stilled, and receives a spanking from Cadsuane. A true Aes Sedai.

[Suttree]

please delete

Edited November 10, 2012 by Suttree

[Suttree]

Suttree, channeler exchange program is hilarious.

 

I see mud's point and when I read that exchange I got the same thing out of it. It seemed that Egwene, while appearing to be magnanimous (not sure if that is the correct word), was really trying to grow the white tower for the future. She put the caveat in the agreement saying that these women had to go back to their respective cultures for a specific amount of time and after they could come back if they desired. I believe that she thinks that when they get a taste of the big city or however you want to phrase it, they will want to return after that specific amount of time.

 

She also realizes that her AS getting trained by these other cultures is an excellent thing however, how many of them will really want to stay in cultures that are much more difficult than a life in the WT.

 

Well that makes two of you. There is not a single shred of evidence that channelers from those cultures will prefer to stay as AS. In actuality the in text facts point to the exact opposite seeing as how the Sea Folk AS went back to their people the first chance they got after the changes. This was after years of being in TV. Also as was pointed out earlier that clause would not have been placed in if it was Egwene's intent to siphon of their channelers. Additionally there is no correlation to a place like modern day Pakistan and the environments of those other two cultures. The WFs do not live in sandy hovels like Mudd claimed, they are actually one of the richest cultures in the world and make the finest quality wood and other goods. Once again if that is the most anyone can come up with that is unfair with the deal your side's argument that it favors AS is dubious at best. It was fair, it was even, every group is going in knowing they will be "playing" for position within the framework of the deal and they would be remiss as leaders if they didn't try to "play best". This will do more to change the culture of the WT and get in back in touch with the real world than anything they have done in over a thousand years(although working with the Ashaman at the LB and then joining together post TG will do even more along these lines).

Edited November 10, 2012 by Suttree

[Saken]

Ok man, I get the feeling you are getting angry. Let me point out that I was simply stating my opinion about what I felt when I read the meeting. I wasn't saying that I am right, I was simply giving a nod to mud to let him/her know that he/she was not alone.

 

Did the WFs send their weakest channelers to TV to keep the AS out of their business? If so, how is a weak channeler in TV treated? If I were a weak channeler, I would go back home at the earliest convenience too. I would pour tea for no one!

 

What would a WF of considerable strength do in the same circumstance?

 

I didn't say a damn thing about Pakistan.

 

When you read that scene did you not get the feeling that Egwene was being shifty? That is what I felt. She was deliberately manipulating everyone involved.

 

With all that being said, this is my opinion. I could give a rats ass whether or not you agree with it. When mud stated an opinion, you blasted it. When I stated my opinion, you blasted it. I understand disagreeing with an opinion but to attempt to embarass someone is rediculous.

[Suttree]

Ok man, I get the feeling you are getting angry. Let me point out that I was simply stating my opinion about what I felt when I read the meeting. I wasn't saying that I am right, I was simply giving a nod to mud to let him/her know that he/she was not alone.

 

Did the WFs send their weakest channelers to TV to keep the AS out of their business? If so, how is a weak channeler in TV treated? If I were a weak channeler, I would go back home at the earliest convenience too. I would pour tea for no one!

 

What would a WF of considerable strength do in the same circumstance?

 

I didn't say a damn thing about Pakistan.

 

When you read that scene did you not get the feeling that Egwene was being shifty? That is what I felt. She was deliberately manipulating everyone involved.

 

With all that being said, this is my opinion. I could give a rats ass whether or not you agree with it. When mud stated an opinion, you blasted it. When I stated my opinion, you blasted it. I understand disagreeing with an opinion but to attempt to embarass someone is rediculous.

 

What an odd thing to say. Why on earth would you think that after reading my response?

 

Let me give you a bit of advice here. Spend more than a month here and learn the lay of the land before you start trying to call things out. First off Mudd is from Pakistan and that is why he believes as he does, he used it as the example(Pakistani exchange students) he is basing his views off. Second there was no attempt to embarrass, he and I are friends that talk outside of this forum and have jousted in this manner for years. It is all good between us.

 

Lastly the only reason your opinion is being blasted is because it has no basis in the text. Once again every group will be trying to "play best" jockeying for position and they all know that going in. That said each one would be remiss as leaders if they were not working for advantage within the deal. This whole side bar started after people were challenged to point out what is unfair in the deal. What gives AS an unfair advantage. So far this is the one and only item that has been brought up and it was shot down by many other besides me at the time of the ToM release just as it has been now.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Suttree

[Morden]

The clause is simply there to stop problems in the future and stop any chance of "Your stealing my people, the deal is off." Because both WF and WO have strong senses of honoring an agreement once it has been made, regardless of how inconvenient it is, they'll moan and they will try and work around it but Egwene left them almost no wiggle room.

 

It was a very deft piece of manipulation, she played them as well as she did the Tower and it is one of her strongest abilities. She KNOWS how to game the system and makes best use of it. To me while I might dislike her for many reasons, you've gotta give her credit for being a "sneaky little cowbag" to coin one of my mothers phrases.

[Saken]

Well I stand corrected, perhaps you are not being rude. If I misinterpreted, I apologize.

 

I agree that the deal was fair and each group will benefit equally from it as the deal was made.

 

Egwene wants to tie these women to the WT. Although they may not be resident in TV, they will most certainly be subservient to the Amrylin Seat. This is what the future holds.

 

I may be absolutely incorrect, but I don't think so.

[Suttree]

It was a very deft piece of manipulation, she played them as well as she did the Tower and it is one of her strongest abilities.

 

Indeed. If the deal is fair, there is nothing wrong if the AS "play best". Everyone knows the score going in. At the same time the impact it will have on accepted, having to go through those life experiences can not be debated. It will bring the WT more firmly into the wide world. No doubt about it.