What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Suttree]

The reason I hate Eggy is because she has the fatal flaw of believing herself ot always be right. There's a thin line between self assurence and conciedeness, and most people can't tell the difference. You can be sure of yourself without being cocky.

 

At work I'm regarded as "never admitting I'm wrong," I always respond with, I'm happy if someone proves me wrong, I can't help it that I refuse to take a stance until I examine the issue from all sides and come up with a logical explaination. If I'm frequently right, that doesn't mean I won't admit when I'm wrong..

 

Eggy refuses to admit she's wrong about anything. It's very childish.

 

While she often sticks to her guns that is far from refusing to admit she is wrong or has made mistakes. Numerous examples have been given in these threads. Here is just one of many...

 

TGS

Had she fallen into the same trap as Siuan? It was a danger. She had been trained by Siuan, after all. If Egwene had explained in more detail how well her work in the White Tower was going, would the others have stayed their hands?

 

 

It was a difficult line to walk. There were many secrets that an Amyrlin had to hold. To be transparent would be to lose her edge of authority. But with Siuan herself, Egwene should have been more forthcoming. The woman was too accustomed to taking action on her own. The way she had kept that dream ter'angreal against the Hall's knowledge and wishes was an indication of that. Yet Egwene had approved of that, unconsciously encouraging Siuan to defy authority.

 

Yes, Egwene had made mistakes. She could not lay all the blame on Siuan, Bryne and Gawyn. She had likely made other mistakes as well; she would need to look at her own actions in more detail later.

[randsc]

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits? Sure, you can find examples of both, but even in the example you give above, her POV does reveal a certain arrogance, no? Her "mistake" is in being too tolerant of Suian's independent action? "If only I had provided her with more of my wise guidance..."

[Suttree]

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits?

 

Sure, I'm just referring to people discussing it as if it has never happened which pop up all too frequently. She has been shown to reflect and work towards changing throughout the course of the story even if it is not a strength.

[Kahsm]

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

I agree. Same with Perrin and his military planning, out scheming Queens like Alliandre, being a better warrior than Aiel etc. I know Faile helped a bit but the same could be said for Siuan about Egwene. The whole thing just breaks down when looked at closely.

 

Perrin and his Axe wielding is a FAR more egregious than anything Egwene was "suddenly" able to do. But as Suttree said, it's pretty common across the board in varying magnitudes, similar to the seemingly-stupid enemies criticism. Just seems that when it comes to Egwene, nothing can be overlooked the way it is for every other character.

 

I just don't know what she did to you people to deserve such unfair treatment =( I mean.. besides being an ambitious, capable, and independent female character *pushes randsc's big red button*

Edited April 17, 2012 by Kael Pyralis

[randsc]

I'm sorry Kael, but I can't hear you over the sound of my own laughter, as I watch the vid of the King's scoreboard interspersing clips of Kesler and springboard divers.

 

Perrin is ta'veren. His un- (or even super-) natural progress is explained within the magic system of the series. Egwene's is not. It really isn't a difficult concept.

[XXX]

 

One other thing about Perrin's arc is that he might become, inexplicably, better than his opponents at certain things, but those opponents don't suddenly become idiots. The Aiel can still fight, for example. The Aes Sedai Egwene faces, on the other hand, can barely feed themselves.

 

 

 

You mean like how a century old Aes Sedai asks a 20 year old Egwene on how to handle a warder?

[Ala Rubra]

I just don't know what she did to you people to deserve such unfair treatment =(

 

IMO, it's not what she did or did not do. I think that the reason people jump to point out Egwene's flaws is because the books don't. I think nobody sees the need to point out Rand or Mat or Nynaeve's flaws because the books do that so well already. For the life of me, I can't remember any character in the books thinking poorly of Egwene since the middle of the series, certainly (and she has changed since the beginning, so early critizisms are less important), and maybe even earlier.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahhh, excellent debate these last few pages, something I can get in to. For whatever reason, we now have a reasonable debate on both sides. I'll admit at one point I was one who was fervently against Egwene, but that didn't really accomplish much in terms of thread debates. This here, is good. (apart from Kael's little dig there )

I agree with both sides now. Egwene is hardly a "great" character, but I think she recieves a bit too much hate more than she deserves.

 

The main points, I think, why there is "reasonable" dislike for her is pointed out perfectly in this.

 

One other thing about Perrin's arc is that he might become, inexplicably, better than his opponents at certain things, but those opponents don't suddenly become idiots. The Aiel can still fight, for example. The Aes Sedai Egwene faces, on the other hand, can barely feed themselves.

 

 

 

You mean like how a century old Aes Sedai asks a 20 year old Egwene on how to handle a warder?

 

I know Aes Sedai are proven to be incompetent compared to how they think they are, but really? I mean, this is just Egwene-loving to a sickening extent. If I had a dollar for every time an Aes Sedai mentioned how awesome Egwene was, I would own the publishing rights and change said amount of times this is refered to.

 

What people hate about Egwene in regards to this, is the Aes Sedai do not see her shortcommings, and then, as a result, she becomes arrogant. A natural thing, when you got sycophants washing your feet with their hair (see what I did there ). Now, it has to be admitted, this was not ALWAYS the case. Obviously when she was first raised, every AS under the sun thought her a babbling idiot.

 

This, then, is where things get annoying and I think unrealistic. Within the space of a few months she goes from a child who was disobeying the Wise Ones and made to wear a short skirt and pigtails to a Godlike paragon of wisdom and virtue.

 

Suian certainly helped her, but she supasses Suian and becomes twice what she was, all with relatively little time. Not to mention suffering Aran'gar's manipulation. Suddenly she can withstand intense abuse and prolonged confinement and come out without a scratch.

 

Rand, when he was kidnapped, suffered extraordinarily for months afterwards. He was of course, exposed to the taint and going insane, not to mention pressured by the DO and the weight of the world, however, I find it hard to believe that the abuse Egwene suffered under Elaida, multiple beatings a day and an eventual confinement to a cell she could barely fit in would not have any lasting effects.

 

Before anyone mentions the Aiel-way revelation that she has, enduring pain and such. Fair enough, I will grant that it would have certainly done a lot for her. But Aiel have been raised with this believe all of their lives, in fact, Amys and many Wise Ones, at Egwene's age, tried to run away from Wise One training multiple times. I will say, this is very different, my point being that even the Aiel do not go unscathed. Besides which, Egwene spent only a few months with them, hardly enough time to suddenly adopt their endurance perfectly.

 

Of course, I am not saying that she HASN'T been affected by this. The thing that is galling to most people is that any effect is virtually non-existent in the text and does not affect her abilities. Aes Sedai all think she is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

As Randsc pointed out, we are as yet unsure if there is more to it than this, it is just that, from the evidence we have been given, it seems unrealistic.

 

Now, this is not an Egwene hate post. I am pointing out both sides IMO, so please bare with me.

 

The comparison of the unrealistic aspect with Mat, Rand, Perrin etc.. is certainly valid to a point.

 

The best one being Perrin's sudden awesomeness with his Axe/Hammer. Do we ever see him actually do any training like Rand with Lan. I mean, I know he has practised and that, but it doesn't seem to warrant his skill. (Although, I suppose this could be helped with his keen sense of sight and smell as a wolf-brother) still, certainly comparable, and a good point.

 

But I don't think Perrin's growth can compare. How many times have we complained about the utter lack of anything significant in Perrin chapters? He spends a very, very long time developing. His skill in TAR is not sudden, he has been going in frequently (depends how you would define it, I suppose, but enough to be believable) since tDR. He had been muddling his way through it for what, 10 books. Finally he does get "formal" training in ToM, but he already had a solid platform of knowledge. This is more intensive training to hone his skills.

 

His military feats are a bit strange. He has Faile, when Egwene had Suian, so I think that it is equal in that regard. I think it is worth noting that him "outplaying" Alliandre was not exactly true. She just misunderstood him. Perrin did nothing special, he is just a blunt guy, which Faile exploits. Egwene's situation is different, she suddenly beings to outsmart century-old Aes Sedai and beat them at their own game.

 

With that having been said, apart from her somewhat miraculous awesomeness, she is fairly decent.

 

She admits mistakes, like suttree points out, although everyone can admit she is particularly unwilling to. Still, it is a point many take to the extreme, which is not fair on her. She does reflect some, just less than others.

 

Her actions cannot be faulted TOO much. Usually the things that she does make sense. Her dealing with the Aes Sedai and questionable actions are unfortunately the only way she can do it. Her ultimate goal is arguably more important than a few questionable actions. I am not saying what she did was right or wrong, just that she is doing the best she can, and sometimes she fails. A more acceptable criticism is her lack of acknowledgement of her mistakes, but as pointed out, this is sometimes taken to extreme and unfair proportions.

 

In regards to her allowing some pretty unsavory things to happen, particularly Nynaeve's testing, it is unfortunate and very difficult situation to be in. While I myself think that she should have put her foot down and stopped that farce, the fact is, she is not yet secure enough to do so. She would be risking her position as Amyrlin. Now, I wont debate if this was the right thing to do or not, I will say that it is understandable, and Egwene had no malicious intent here. She WAS relieved when it was over, and she DID care, but she could not be seen to in front of the other Aes Sedai, it may have been a crap thing to do, but I think it was understandable.

 

Tying this in with the previous point, I think a lot of the hate comes from the comparison to Rand, specially post-VoG Rand. We tend to compare her to Rand since she is like his counterpart as the Amyrlin, but the fact is, she is not, nor is it fair to compare her with him. Rand is something else entirely, and cannot be compared with anyone. Rand would have acted differently in Nynaeve's testing for certain, but this is because he would have been able to, he has the presence and the power to assert his will. I have no doubt that Egwene if she had had everything Rand does, would not have allowed some of the undesirable stuff that has happened to have happened. Unfortunately, she has to make do with what she has got, and I think that, while she makes mistakes, she is still doing the best she can, and tries not to dwell on this, lest it consume her.

f

Her actions and thoughts are compared to Rand's. He is 400 years old, the most talented man in that AoL. He has the knowledge (this is NOT referring to the seals) and experience that she does not. Her reactions and actions are only unreasonable compared to Rand's. If we look at her actual experience, her actions etc. are more reasonable and believable.

 

It is a common problem with novels, we as the reader have access to knowledge the characters do not, thus we get annoyed when characters act in the "wrong" way. Now, Egwene's seemingly stubborn refusal to even contemplate another PoV is another story (I wont go into it, I have expressed certain possibilities in another thread).

 

So basically, there are a lot of things to dislike about her, the main problem is that many take the hate to another level entirely, which is unfair. Last few pages have been pretty good, however.

[Mr Ares]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

 

The Supergirls learning magic quickly really doesn't bother me. And if you think about it, you seldom see criticism of them in regards to their abilities with the Power. Why? Because it's magic. By definition, unrealistic and requiring a suspension of disbelief.

 

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

Magic does require a suspension of belief but should it not be consistent? Mr Ares thinks that the stronger people learn quickly. Well in the AoL the average OP strength was very high and still the forsaken etc took hundreds of years to hone their crafts. I mean they keep referring to the 3rd age AS as half trained children if the training took merely months instead of years that statement makes no sense.

Of course people took years to hone their crafts. You can train someone to a basic level of competency in a fairly short space of time (how long depends on what you're doing), but it can take years of practice and hard work to master a craft. The Aiel force people to learn quickly - no point in mollycoddling them. The AS force them to take baby steps. The AoL was probably somewhere in between those two extremes. The AS back then probably had a much wider knowledge base than Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne do now. They've got good very fast, in a large part because they were in circumstances that forced them to get good very fast. But compared to the people of the AoL, despite their rapid improvements and innovations, they are probably lacking in a great deal of knowledge. Half-trained children is probably pretty accurate. So there is no inconsistency here.

[XXX]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

 

The Supergirls learning magic quickly really doesn't bother me. And if you think about it, you seldom see criticism of them in regards to their abilities with the Power. Why? Because it's magic. By definition, unrealistic and requiring a suspension of disbelief.

 

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

Magic does require a suspension of belief but should it not be consistent? Mr Ares thinks that the stronger people learn quickly. Well in the AoL the average OP strength was very high and still the forsaken etc took hundreds of years to hone their crafts. I mean they keep referring to the 3rd age AS as half trained children if the training took merely months instead of years that statement makes no sense.

Of course people took years to hone their crafts. You can train someone to a basic level of competency in a fairly short space of time (how long depends on what you're doing), but it can take years of practice and hard work to master a craft. The Aiel force people to learn quickly - no point in mollycoddling them. The AS force them to take baby steps. The AoL was probably somewhere in between those two extremes. The AS back then probably had a much wider knowledge base than Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne do now. They've got good very fast, in a large part because they were in circumstances that forced them to get good very fast. But compared to the people of the AoL, despite their rapid improvements and innovations, they are probably lacking in a great deal of knowledge. Half-trained children is probably pretty accurate. So there is no inconsistency here.

 

The problem I have is how self described complicated weaves are learnt by super girls and pretty much everyone else in one look. I mean Ny goes toe to toe with Moggy copying self described complicated weaves used by Moggy against her. How difficult is it to learn the OP if you can learn complicated weaves in the heat of battle with one look and hold your own against someone who had hundreds of years of experience doing the same?

 

And this is not just with the super girls. Rand used death gates and other obscure weaves and Logain and random Ash'aman start copying his weaves in the middle of battle with one look. WTF?

[Vardar]

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits?

Sure, I'm just referring to people discussing it as if it has never happened which pop up all too frequently. She has been shown to reflect and work towards changing throughout the course of the story even if it is not a strength.

 

When I say never, I mean to imply scenes like the one you quoted don't count, becaus she's still laying the blame elsewhere.

 

Sure I've made mistakes, but my biggest mistake was not forcing everyone to be as awesome as I am.

 

That's not admitting you're wrong. That's not believing you have made real mistakes and should pay for them. She does what she wants, when she wants, because she knows she's always right.

 

As to the Perrin thing, out scheming people and fighting, I'd count that more towards the author implying he's a bloody genius. Him picking up battle skills on the fly, he had decent teachers in warfare, I mean sure they don't directly say he was tutored, but he watched troop deployments made my Tam, and Lan and such, he obviously picks things up easily, so he remembers. That's how I always viewed it at least.

[David Selig]

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits?

Sure, I'm just referring to people discussing it as if it has never happened which pop up all too frequently. She has been shown to reflect and work towards changing throughout the course of the story even if it is not a strength.

 

When I say never, I mean to imply scenes like the one you quoted don't count, becaus she's still laying the blame elsewhere.

 

Sure I've made mistakes, but my biggest mistake was not forcing everyone to be as awesome as I am.

 

That's not admitting you're wrong. That's not believing you have made real mistakes and should pay for them. She does what she wants, when she wants, because she knows she's always right.

 

As to the Perrin thing, out scheming people and fighting, I'd count that more towards the author implying he's a bloody genius. Him picking up battle skills on the fly, he had decent teachers in warfare, I mean sure they don't directly say he was tutored, but he watched troop deployments made my Tam, and Lan and such, he obviously picks things up easily, so he remembers. That's how I always viewed it at least.

If that was the intention, then RJ/Sanderson failed spectacularly. I've seen far more people both in RL and on message boards consider Perrin an idiot than a genius.

[Suttree]

You'll acknowledge, certainly, that reflection and self-criticism are not strong suits?

Sure, I'm just referring to people discussing it as if it has never happened which pop up all too frequently. She has been shown to reflect and work towards changing throughout the course of the story even if it is not a strength.

 

When I say never, I mean to imply scenes like the one you quoted don't count, becaus she's still laying the blame elsewhere.

 

Sure I've made mistakes, but my biggest mistake was not forcing everyone to be as awesome as I am.

 

That's not admitting you're wrong. That's not believing you have made real mistakes and should pay for them. She does what she wants, when she wants, because she knows she's always right.

 

As to the Perrin thing, out scheming people and fighting, I'd count that more towards the author implying he's a bloody genius. Him picking up battle skills on the fly, he had decent teachers in warfare, I mean sure they don't directly say he was tutored, but he watched troop deployments made my Tam, and Lan and such, he obviously picks things up easily, so he remembers. That's how I always viewed it at least.

 

Even the most ardent of the anti-Egwene crowd admits that it has happened with regularity throughout the text. So I'm not sure why you would try to apply your interpretation of my quote to every time it has happened in the series. Also what part of

 

She had likely made other mistakes as well; she would need to look at her own actions in more detail later.

 

is laying the blame elsewhere to the point that it wouldn't count as introspection and trying to change her mistakes?

 

Love how your post above almost perfectly showcases character bias when judging one and not the other. As David said the vast majority did not react as you did to how Perrin was written.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Suttree

[Edynol]

If that was the intention, then RJ/Sanderson failed spectacularly. I've seen far more people both in RL and on message boards consider Perrin an idiot than a genius.

 

Remember when he went back to the TR? He followed Tam's and the others' lead for a long time until Tam started letting him lead. he used a lot of common sense and with being ta'veren, collected a lot of followers. Remember through out the book he did take a lot of advice from those around him. And for the most part, he let everyone do their thing the best way they saw fit, utilizing their knowledge and experience to get things done. He told them what he wanted done, but he let them decide how to do it because he knew they would know the best way. It wasn't until they went save the Children that he started taking a more active hand in how things got done. For being forced into the position he is and having to adapt on the fly like, he showed remarkable talent and intelligence as a leader. I actually think of him as a better leader than Rand, because he actually listens to the council of those around him, unlike Rand(before ToM) who just did things they way he wants despite what anyone says. A lot of Rand's victories came by sheer power and luck, not knowledge. An idiot with a nuke will defeat rocket scientist marines with guns.(Note: I am not calling Rand an idiot, just using a metaphor.)

 

A good leader knows how to take advice and delegate, which is what Perrin does. Sure, he has made some mistakes and taken some foolish risks, but he's only human.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Edynol

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the point here is not that Perrin is an idiot (because he isn't) but that he could hardly be called a genius, since his intelligence is subject to much doubt.

[Vardar]

is laying the blame elsewhere to the point that it wouldn't count as introspection and trying to change her mistakes?

 

Love how your post above almost perfectly showcases character bias when judging one and not the other. As David said the vast majority did not react as you did to how Perrin was written.

 

For the record, I am not a fan of Perrin. I think he has the potential to be a good leader, however his refusal to accept the role, regardless of what happened to those around him, is/was a major weakness that to me, makes him a horrible leader. I'd rank him up there with Eggy, although now that he finally accepted the role of a leader, I suppose I should like his character, but to me it just seems like it's too little too late. In a perfect world, peole would have stopped trying to follow the fool who didn't want to lead.

 

If Eggy does have moments of "true" self reflection, they were obviously so horrible that they didn't stick in my head. In fact, what mostly stuck in my head is a plethora of snarky comments she made about others judging them. There are hundreds of statements she made about others ridiculing them for their actions or behaviors, most of them could be applied to her! I suppose other times of her reflecting has been mentioned in this thread? Guess I'll scroll back through again and see if I can find anymore.

 

If that was the intention, then RJ/Sanderson failed spectacularly. I've seen far more people both in RL and on message boards consider Perrin an idiot than a genius.

 

People will always find the big gentle giant dim-witted. It's natural to suppose someone who moves and acts with caution is stupid. It's a stereotype that applies here too.

[Suttree]

There are hundreds of statements she made about others ridiculing them for their actions or behaviors, most of them could be applied to her! I suppose other times of her reflecting has been mentioned in this thread?

 

Wouldn't you say that applies to Nynaeve far more accurately? That is her stchick after all.

 

People will always find the big gentle giant dim-witted. It's natural to suppose someone who moves and acts with caution is stupid. It's a stereotype that applies here too.

 

I can speak for myself(and knowing David's posting history I'm guessing him as well) in saying that has absolutely nothing to do with it. There was no subtlety involved, in fact RJ hit us over the head with a sledgehammer in showing that not to be the case. I can't imagine anyone applying that stereotype after the first few books.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

There are hundreds of statements she made about others ridiculing them for their actions or behaviors, most of them could be applied to her! I suppose other times of her reflecting has been mentioned in this thread?

 

Wouldn't you say that applies to Nynaeve far more accurately? That is her stchick after all.

 

People will always find the big gentle giant dim-witted. It's natural to suppose someone who moves and acts with caution is stupid. It's a stereotype that applies here too.

 

I can speak for myself(and knowing David's posting history I'm guessing him as well) in saying that has absolutely nothing to do with it. There was no subtlety involved, in fact RJ hit us over the head with a sledgehammer in showing that not to be the case. I can't imagine anyone applying that stereotype after the first few books.

 

Have a chat with Elan

[Suttree]

Have a chat with Elan

 

Touche

[Vardar]

Wouldn't you say that applies to Nynaeve far more accurately? That is her stchick after all.

 

True, however she changed. A LOT. She now understands she's not always right. Eggy doesn't.

 

 

I can speak for myself(and knowing David's posting history I'm guessing him as well) in saying that has absolutely nothing to do with it. There was no subtlety involved, in fact RJ hit us over the head with a sledgehammer in showing that not to be the case. I can't imagine anyone applying that stereotype after the first few books.

 

So aside from not accepting the role of a leader (which i chalk up to him being a coward not stupid, my personal opinion however), what actions of his have made him out to be an idiot? If anything, I would think he'd be seen as slightly autistic (in the real world), but everything hints at him being extremely intelligent, and just a genius that no one notices because he's a big brute. He even says it, numerous times in the book. Some people just still think he's slow-witted.

[TheePazuzu]

How successful a character is dependent upon believability? Is it believable that a girl of her age could have gathered sufficient knowledge and experience in the short amount of time she had in white tower too command, well command what exactly? Rand on the other hand is basically the reincarnation of Lews Therin and therefore has knowledge.

 

She wants to control Rand at Tarmon Gai'don but at no time in this whole series is there anything to indicate that she has accumulated some kind of knowledge to guide anything or anyone; she’s been spanked plenty of times but I fail to see how this translates into having a battle plan for the final assault. Infact what do the Aes Sedai bring to the table at all apart from spanking?

[Suttree]

She wants to control Rand at Tarmon Gai'don but at no time in this whole series is there anything to indicate that she has accumulated some kind of knowledge to guide anything or anyone; she’s been spanked plenty of times but I fail to see how this translates into having a battle plan for the final assault.

 

Yet Rand is completely relying on Min to find the answer. Wouldn't it be far better to lay out what he hopes to do and work together with the WT library to find the answer? I mean I'm sure Baerlon Community College had an excellent class on the seals but come on.

 

To your other point, I don't think anyone has ever said Egwene should take the lead. Merely that AS have been the force that has held the Shadow at bay for 3,000 years so it is only natural for the Amrylin to view things from that perspective. If Rand lays out a rational course of action at the FoM she should go along. If not than I will jump on the bandwagon as well.

[TheePazuzu]

She wants to control Rand at Tarmon Gai'don but at no time in this whole series is there anything to indicate that she has accumulated some kind of knowledge to guide anything or anyone; she’s been spanked plenty of times but I fail to see how this translates into having a battle plan for the final assault.

 

Yet Rand is completely relying on Min to find the answer. Wouldn't it be far better to lay out what he hopes to do and work together with the WT library to find the answer? I mean I'm sure Baerlon Community College had an excellent class on the seals but come on.

 

To your other point, I don't think anyone has ever said Egwene should take the lead. Merely that AS have been the force that has held the Shadow at bay for 3,000 years so it is only natural for the Amrylin to view things from that perspective. If Rand lays out a rational course of action at the FoM she should go along. If not than I will jump on the bandwagon as well.

 

 

 

Think about it for a moment; if you were going to fight a battle would you want to consult with a bunch of people that had continually demonstrated connivance against you and one another?

 

He has Mat Cauthon and others for military strategy and he himself has faced the Dark One's servants on many occasions so there is little that anyone in this present age can give in the way of advice.

 

In this battle the Dark One has his hands on his wheel, Rand has to act similarly he cannot afford to be sharing his control with anyone else or he’ll lose.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Rand doesn't really care for control any more. He has realised what he has to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. He wants the Aes Sedai on his side, he wants Egwene to lead them in the battle, because he will not be present, he will be trying to seal the bore while the others fight.

 

All he wants to do in terms of "control" is to prevent as many deaths and destruction as possible. This does not require his personal control, he just needs everyone to get organized and work together.

 

It can be debated that Egwene want's to control Rand, I do not think it is the case, but I will leave that, since it is a matter of speculation and opinion rather than proof.

 

What proof we do have is that Egwene has just heard him say "I am setting the DO free." She hears the other bit about it being the only way to seal him back up, but these are the words that make the impact.

 

Set the DO free? Madness, and who can blame her? We as the reader know that the seals must be broken in order to properly seal him up again. (Perrin's metaphor is most apt here)

But Egwene has no such knowledge, nor does Rand explain (intentionally, because he expects her to gather everyone)

 

The matter of the seals will likely not even be of any consequence. Rand will break them no matter what.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

JAY (8 JULY 2010)

Will we see the Dark One in WoT? Will he walk the earth and physically fight with Rand & Co?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 JULY 2010)

 

I can't tell you for certain about the Dark One. There WILL be a confrontation, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The last seals will be broken.

 

His main intention for the meeting is to discuss the Dragon's Peace. He has no intention nor any fear of being controlled, and I think Egwene knows this as well.

 

Point being, there is no fight for control. Rand doesn't want nor does he need it. Egwene however, will have to rebuild, and he is giving her this power, since he believes he will die in the process anyway. Egwene is only acting as Rand wants, she is not doing anything against him in reality, he "tricked" her into it, it is not her fault.

[Edynol]

Rand doesn't really care for control any more. He has realised what he has to do, and nobody can stop him from doing it. He wants the Aes Sedai on his side, he wants Egwene to lead them in the battle, because he will not be present, he will be trying to seal the bore while the others fight.

 

All he wants to do in terms of "control" is to prevent as many deaths and destruction as possible. This does not require his personal control, he just needs everyone to get organized and work together.

 

It can be debated that Egwene want's to control Rand, I do not think it is the case, but I will leave that, since it is a matter of speculation and opinion rather than proof.

 

What proof we do have is that Egwene has just heard him say "I am setting the DO free." She hears the other bit about it being the only way to seal him back up, but these are the words that make the impact.

 

Set the DO free? Madness, and who can blame her? We as the reader know that the seals must be broken in order to properly seal him up again. (Perrin's metaphor is most apt here)

But Egwene has no such knowledge, nor does Rand explain (intentionally, because he expects her to gather everyone)

 

The matter of the seals will likely not even be of any consequence. Rand will break them no matter what.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

JAY (8 JULY 2010)

Will we see the Dark One in WoT? Will he walk the earth and physically fight with Rand & Co?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 JULY 2010)

 

I can't tell you for certain about the Dark One. There WILL be a confrontation, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The last seals will be broken.

 

His main intention for the meeting is to discuss the Dragon's Peace. He has no intention nor any fear of being controlled, and I think Egwene knows this as well.

 

Point being, there is no fight for control. Rand doesn't want nor does he need it. Egwene however, will have to rebuild, and he is giving her this power, since he believes he will die in the process anyway. Egwene is only acting as Rand wants, she is not doing anything against him in reality, he "tricked" her into it, it is not her fault.

 

This make a lot of sense. Well said. I was thinking along the same lines, but never pondered it in depth like that. Makes perfect sense given the info we have.