What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Elan Tedronai]

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

but what if she murders rand and nyneve in the process? ;)

 

That would be fine. Rand, in particular, is clearly going to die. And I don't know that we need happy endings for all. This is the difference between people like you and Kael and most of the rest of us. You're so invested with your love for a particular character that you will only be satisfied by that character's complete triumph and universal acknowledgement of her awesomeness. Nynaeve happens to be my favorite character currently, but if she dies, so be it.

 

she could be thirteen thirteened but that is just going to hand us lot more ammunition as to how incompetent she really is and even I do not want that lol

 

You do not heal a broken tower by being incompetent ;)

 

No, you heal it through amazingly contrived idiocy on the part of your adversaries, combined with Mary-Sue-ness, all amounting to something barely short of deus ex machina. "Egwene saved the Tower, because."

 

 

heh, you have the audacity to accuse me of investing so much in a character when half of your entire posts is all about egwene bashing with a little gawyn hatred thrown in the mix. Please. Save me this holier than thou attitude. Your user name in itself proves my point.

 

It's also ironic that you credit egwene's success on the author/ deus ex machina blah blah when the same can be labelled pretty much on any of the emond's field characters. But hey don't let such things get into your way.

 

 

And finally no need to be so vindictive and angry on here half the time. Your jesus rand will still save the world. He will fulfil your inner christian hopes in AMOL. So chill the fuck out

Edited April 12, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[randsc]

My username is my wife's first initial "R", the word "and", my first initial "S", and our last initial "C". Not sure how that proves anything. Perhaps you could explain?

 

If you're still denying that Rand al'Thor is a messianic archetype, I just don't know what to say to you.

 

Your entire post proves my point. You have a really incredible level of emotional investment in the awesomeness of Egwene.

 

I'd like to ask you a serious question, Elan: How old are you?

Edited April 12, 2012 by randsc

[muddasssir]

come on guys chill out we are all on the side of light here aren't we? well, at least I hope. lol and i thought it was fear tat was the path to the dark side of the force?

[muddasssir]

please Elan read my posts for a change. I have maintained from the first post that egwene is not a very well written character. Please go back and read my first post on the topic I have clearly stated that. I do not blame her for anything she merely does what she is told to do.

[Kahsm]

That would be fine. Rand, in particular, is clearly going to die. And I don't know that we need happy endings for all. This is the difference between people like you and Kael and most of the rest of us. You're so invested with your love for a particular character that you will only be satisfied by that character's complete triumph and universal acknowledgement of her awesomeness. Nynaeve happens to be my favorite character currently, but if she dies, so be it.

 

Wait what? I could have swore I JUST wrote out a scenario where Egwene's faults blind her from seeing the truth and she stumbles into a stupid decision and ultimately ends up failing and possibly bringing the white tower down with her...

 

In so far as the story goes, I don't really agree. WOT is already too black and white. It would be better if Egwene formed a 3rd faction and opposed Rand, even if she was wrong. Maybe Rand allies first with the seanchan, Egwene can't stomach that and she's blinded in all other things by her past with them. That would be nifty and still effectively make her a "Bad guy" while not just making her another DO minion. Elaida style I guess.

 

There it is! Maybe you should actually read my posts randsc before you jump to conclusions. I also have no issues with her dying. I think dying would be less horrible than falling as Elaida did... but if it's reasonable and makes the story good. I'm all for it.

 

The problem is, you're not reasonable. You're so hate blind you leap into every Egwene thread in order to knock her down and anyone who supports her. I don't go after people who dislike egwene, I go after the reasons. I can't speak for Elan =)

 

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai. But it's still effectively the same "problem" with Jordan's writing. Most of us just come to terms with it and take the story for what it is, instead of trying to use a fairly wide ranging issue to try and single out one character just because you can't actually find a real problem, but you have some visceral hate that you need to justify.

 

There are plenty of good reasons to dislike Egwene, and I don't require people love her at all. I just would like people to dislike her for REAL reasons. Not made up ones, or ones that apply to almost every character equally and therefore are a wash.

[Durinax]

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

[Kahsm]

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

 

See Randsc, this is the type of stuff I go off against.

 

First, regarding how Egwene "nearly instantly becomes calm". I think you need to read it again... I'll help...

 

Egwene barely noticed. She stood, stiff, a tide of panicked thoughts flooding her mind. She was trapped again! She could not stand it. She would die before she allowed this to happen. Images flashed in her head. Trapped in a room, unable to move more than a few feet without being overcome by the a'dam. Treated like an animal, a creeping sense that she would eventually break, would eventually become exactly what they wanted her to be.

Oh, Light. She could not suffer this again. Not this.

 

"Tell those above to withdraw," Mesaana was saying to Alviarin, her voice calm. Egwene barely registered the words. "Fools they are, and their showing here was pathetic. Punishments will be administered."

 

This was how Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve and Elayne. She was kept captive, forced to do as they demanded. Egwene would suffer the same! Indeed, Mesaana would probably use Compulsion on her. The White Tower would be fully in the hands of the Forsaken.

The emotions welled up. Egwene found herself clawing at the collar, which got a look of amusement from Mesaana as Alviarin vanished to relay her order.

This could not be happening. It was a nightmare. A—

You are Aes Sedai. A quiet piece of her whispered the words, yet for all their softness, they were strong. And they were deep within her. The voice was deeper than the terror and fear.

 

"Now," Mesaana said. "We will speak of the dreamspike. Where might I find it?"

An Aes Sedai is calmness, an Aes Sedai is control, regardless of the situation. Egwene lowered her hands from the collar. She had not gone through the testing, and she had not planned to. But if she had, what if she had been

forced to face a situation like this? Would she have broken? Proven herself unworthy of the mantle she claimed to carry?

"Not speaking, I see," Mesaana said. "Well, that can be changed. These a'dam. Such lovely devices. Semirhage was so delightfully wonderful in bringing them to my attention, even if she did so accidentally. Pity she died before I could place one on her neck."

Pain shot through Egwene's body, like fire beneath her skin. Her eyes watered from it.

But she had suffered pain before, and laughed while being beaten. She had been captive before, in the White Tower itself, and captivity had not stopped her.

But this is different! The larger part of her was terrified. This is the a'dam! I cannot withstand it!

An Aes Sedai must, the quiet piece of her replied. An Aes Sedai can suffer all things, for only then can she be truly a servant of all.

"Now," Mesaana said. "Tell me where you have hidden the device."

Egwene controlled her fear. It was not easy. Light, but it was hard! But she did it. Her face became calm. She defied the a'dam by not giving it power over her.

Mesaana hesitated, frowning. She shook the leash, and more pain flooded Egwene.

She made it vanish. "It occurs to me, Mesaana," Egwene said calmly, "that Moghedien made a mistake. She accepted the a'dam!'

"What are you—"

"In this place, an a'dam is as meaningless as the weaves it prevents," Egwene said. "It is only a piece of metal. And it only will stop you if you accept that it will." The a'dam unlocked and fell free of her neck.

 

So you've got the freakout and the clawing at the neck, which is actually pretty pronounced. There's a bit of conversation going on while she's doing it too, so you can't claim that it's just a very condensed in-head thought process. Alviarin even smugly enjoys it for a moment. And notice Egwene stops freaking after saying "nightmare", I took as she accidentally reminding herself where she was, and that she could, as she ultimately does, control this situation if she can be calm. And then she realizes she MUST be calm or she doesn't have a right to call herself Aes Sedai. So the two main things she's been training for through most of the series ultimately allows her to overcome her Achilles heel. That's kinda what character development is about.

 

Now, as for her 'presumed' authority... well we need to read a bit more of ToM to remind us of how that went.

 

Mesaana glanced at it as it dropped to the ground with a metallic ring. Her face grew still, then cold as she looked up at Egwene. Impressively, she did not panic. She folded her arms, eyes impassive. "So, you have practiced here."

Egwene met her gaze.

You are still a child," Mesaana said. "You think that you can best me? have walked in Tel'aran'rhiod longer than you can imagine. You are what, twenty years old?"

I am the Amyrlin," Egwene said. "An Amyrlin to children."

An Amyrlin to a Tower that has stood for thousands of years," Egwene said. Thousands of years of trouble and chaos. Yet most of your life, you

lived in a time of peace, not strife. Curious, that you should think yourself so strong when much of your life was so easy."

"Easy?" Mesaana said. "You know nothing."

Neither broke her gaze. Egwene felt something press against her as it had before. Mesaana's will, demanding her subservience, her supplication. An attempt to use Tel'aran'rhiod to change the very way that Egwene thought.

Mesaana was strong. But strength in this place was a matter of perspective. Mesaana's will pressed against her. But Egwene had defeated the a'dam. She could resist this.

 

The lines I highlighted are particularly important. Note what Mesaana is actually trying to do. And then note how Egwene describes the problem with that particular tactic.

 

"You will bend," Mesaana said quietly.

"You are mistaken," Egwene replied, voice tense. "This is not about me, Egwene al'Vere is a child. But the Amyrlin is not. I may be young, but the Seat is ancient."

 

Neither woman looked away. Egwene began to push back, to demand that Mesaana bow before her, before the Amyrlin. The air began to feel heavy around them, and when Egwene breathed it in, it seemed thick somehow.

"Age is irrelevant," Egwene said. "To an extent, even experience is irrelevant. This place is about what a person is. The Amyrlin is the White Tower, and the White Tower will not bend. It defies you, Mesaana, and your lies."

Two women. Gazes matched. Egwene stopped breathing. She did not need to breathe. All was focused on Mesaana. Sweat trickled down Egwenes temples, every muscle in her body tense as she pushed back against Mesaana's will.

And Egwene knew that this woman, this creature, was an insignificant insect shoving against an enormous mountain. That mountain would not move. Indeed, shove against it too hard, and . . .

Something snapped, softly, in the room.

 

Egwene changes the perspective of herself in TAR... this isn't about her making a bunch of grandiose statements and pumping her own sense of self up so much that she wins. It's about changing TAR so that that what she says becomes true. Once it solidified, that she was not Egwene, but more a concept, a history, and an idea... well then Mesaana's pressures were, as described, like pushing a mountain, and she snapped.

 

Otherwise why would she have been wasting energy talking out loud if she was just voicing her own thoughts to convince herself of something? That would make no sense. She had to voice it so she could also "convince" Mesaana, so that what Mesaana was pushing so hard to do, became impossible.

 

I think some people think that this would have worked outside TAR too... that Mesaana was trying to compel Egwene and Egwene pumped up her own willpower by claiming the authority of the whole history of the tower or some such silliness. No. She used TAR to effectively turn herself into the idea of the Amyrlin seat, the same way should could turn herself into a dog or a cat had she wanted.

 

I suspect it may have also worked if she had made herself an ancient boulder, "Standing for millions of years, remaining resolute and strong". But Amyrlin is an easier sell, given she actually is and that was obviously hard enough to do.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kael Pyralis

[Durinax]

With respect to your marry-sue reason. As pointed out, just about all the bad guys are pretty much retarded and allow all the heroes to win pretty easily. That hardly an issue that stains one character. There are whole threads about it. The difference is that Egwene's "enemies" through much of the books are other Aes Sedai.

my problem with Egwenes enemy is that she uses 'presumed' authority to take out masaana, which is completely rediculous in my books. Also for all the buildup about how the collar effects her (mentally), I find it strange that she nearly instantly becomes calm and composed when one is put on her.

 

See Randsc, this is the type of stuff I go off against.

 

First, regarding how Egwene "nearly instantly becomes calm". I think you need to read it again... I'll help...

 

Egwene barely noticed. She stood, stiff, a tide of panicked thoughts flooding her mind. She was trapped again! She could not stand it. She would die before she allowed this to happen. Images flashed in her head. Trapped in a room, unable to move more than a few feet without being overcome by the a'dam. Treated like an animal, a creeping sense that she would eventually break, would eventually become exactly what they wanted her to be.

Oh, Light. She could not suffer this again. Not this.

 

"Tell those above to withdraw," Mesaana was saying to Alviarin, her voice calm. Egwene barely registered the words. "Fools they are, and their showing here was pathetic. Punishments will be administered."

 

This was how Moghedien had been captured by Nynaeve and Elayne. She was kept captive, forced to do as they demanded. Egwene would suffer the same! Indeed, Mesaana would probably use Compulsion on her. The White Tower would be fully in the hands of the Forsaken.

The emotions welled up. Egwene found herself clawing at the collar, which got a look of amusement from Mesaana as Alviarin vanished to relay her order.

This could not be happening. It was a nightmare. A—

You are Aes Sedai. A quiet piece of her whispered the words, yet for all their softness, they were strong. And they were deep within her. The voice was deeper than the terror and fear.

 

"Now," Mesaana said. "We will speak of the dreamspike. Where might I find it?"

An Aes Sedai is calmness, an Aes Sedai is control, regardless of the situation. Egwene lowered her hands from the collar. She had not gone through the testing, and she had not planned to. But if she had, what if she had been

forced to face a situation like this? Would she have broken? Proven herself unworthy of the mantle she claimed to carry?

"Not speaking, I see," Mesaana said. "Well, that can be changed. These a'dam. Such lovely devices. Semirhage was so delightfully wonderful in bringing them to my attention, even if she did so accidentally. Pity she died before I could place one on her neck."

Pain shot through Egwene's body, like fire beneath her skin. Her eyes watered from it.

But she had suffered pain before, and laughed while being beaten. She had been captive before, in the White Tower itself, and captivity had not stopped her.

But this is different! The larger part of her was terrified. This is the a'dam! I cannot withstand it!

An Aes Sedai must, the quiet piece of her replied. An Aes Sedai can suffer all things, for only then can she be truly a servant of all.

"Now," Mesaana said. "Tell me where you have hidden the device."

Egwene controlled her fear. It was not easy. Light, but it was hard! But she did it. Her face became calm. She defied the a'dam by not giving it power over her.

Mesaana hesitated, frowning. She shook the leash, and more pain flooded Egwene.

She made it vanish. "It occurs to me, Mesaana," Egwene said calmly, "that Moghedien made a mistake. She accepted the a'dam!'

"What are you—"

"In this place, an a'dam is as meaningless as the weaves it prevents," Egwene said. "It is only a piece of metal. And it only will stop you if you accept that it will." The a'dam unlocked and fell free of her neck.

 

So you've got the freakout and the clawing at the neck, which is actually pretty pronounced. There's a bit of conversation going on while she's doing it too, so you can't claim that it's just a very condensed in-head thought process. Alviarin even smugly enjoys it for a moment. And notice Egwene stops freaking after saying "nightmare", I took as she accidentally reminding herself where she was, and that she could, as she ultimately does, control this situation if she can be calm. And then she realizes she MUST be calm or she doesn't have a right to call herself Aes Sedai. So the two main things she's been training for through most of the series ultimately allows her to overcome her Achilles heel. That's kinda what character development is about.

 

Now, as for her 'presumed' authority... well we need to read a bit more of ToM to remind us of how that went.

yes but the picture painted about egwene about the seanchan is about how terrible, and PST stricken she is. That is a very brief reaction, for an event that terrified her (apparently until recently before this). I hope that I am getting my view on this across properly, but we see how she hates the collar, and how that event has shaped her life and how she continually refers back to it. Then when it happens again its as if it goes 1 2 3 4 5 nightmare, wait I am ok with this and can change it here. It doesnt seem realistic to me

[muddasssir]

I think that was one of the Ok scenes involving Eggy but to be honest whenever she gets on screen time I switch of mentally it is physically hard to admit something good about eggy

[Suttree]

yes but the picture painted about egwene about the seanchan is about how terrible, and PST stricken she is. That is a very brief reaction, for an event that terrified her (apparently until recently before this). I hope that I am getting my view on this across properly, but we see how she hates the collar, and how that event has shaped her life and how she continually refers back to it. Then when it happens again its as if it goes 1 2 3 4 5 nightmare, wait I am ok with this and can change it here. It doesnt seem realistic to me

 

To be fair this is more BS's writing style than anything else. He had to get from point a to b with very little time to do so. Hence we have a condensed, blunt version of events. This is just one of many examples where this is the case.

[muddasssir]

First of all I am making this post because I could not stand the thought of our dear eggy relegated to page 2 as for getting from point a to point b in short time we have been at it for 13 books and well near to twenty years if this is your idea of little time I wonder what you will call a long wind

[Suttree]

First of all I am making this post because I could not stand the thought of our dear eggy relegated to page 2 as for getting from point a to point b in short time we have been at it for 13 books and well near to twenty years if this is your idea of little time I wonder what you will call a long wind

 

Sorry Mudd but it is often hard to tell if your posts are being sarcastic or just totally missing the point. I have seen both often enough so I've no idea which this one is.

 

I said BS's writing style. You know the guy who is finishing the books from TGS forward off an outline and filling in the blanks?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Suttree

[muddasssir]

well thank you for your kind response at least now you are giving me credit for half a brain but seriously I am again asking this question of both sides of divide. Do you think that eggy is a well written character? You might not have noticed but in past few posts I have been trying to demonstrate that eggy did not get the fair treatment at the hand of writers. For example let us take Rand he is the supposed savior of the world and time itself. He always gets help in fact, if we had a voldermot he would have jeered that he hides behind more talented friends and elders. at the tEotW he had te eye dah. In the great hunt he got help from HoH, in the DR Belal was killed by Moiraine. tSR he was helped by Lanfear in trapping of Asmodean. IN LoC he was elped by Perrin, Wiseones and Ashamen and he continues to grow and learn. In eggys arc we do not see the character development she was left in Aiel waste twiddling her thumbs all she did was frown at Rand's supposed mistreatment of Avi. Out of blue she becomes Amyrilin and we have eggy the light incarnate thrust into our face. So my contention." This is not a well written character".

[randsc]

I would say that we don't yet know if the character is well written. It depends on what we see in the final book in the way of character development. As things stand, she is the epitome of a Mary Sue, to a much greater extent than any of the other characters. but it may well be that she is being set up for further development, possibly at Merilor.

[Suttree]

I would say that we don't yet know if the character is well written. It depends on what we see in the final book in the way of character development. As things stand, she is the epitome of a Mary Sue, to a much greater extent than any of the other characters. but it may well be that she is being set up for further development, possibly at Merilor.

 

We have seen her receive training from Moir, the WOs, and Siuan, along with being held by the Seanchan & being held in the WT. All of those stages combined with her being the only one who "chose" to leave the 2Rs has been crucial to her character and how it has evolved. The situation is not really close to how Mudd describes it above. Not sure how his point about other characters getting help relates to character development? The problem lies I would say in the end results of this training and the scenarios in which people are dumbed down in order for her to shine.

 

As for further development BS seems to rule that out with his recent quote.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

Ummm, no, that quote specifically referred to his work for AMoL. If anything, it indicates that the character undergoes significant development in the final book.

 

If not, she's a poorly written character, meeting essentially every line of the Mary Sue checklist.

[Suttree]

Ummm, no, that quote specifically referred to his work for AMoL. If anything, it indicates that the character undergoes significant development in the final book.

 

Ahh, I must have read it wrong. I assumed it meant she is done as of ToM...I mean it's not like he is still writing new scenes for other characters in aMoL when he answered this question. They are just doing revisions.

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

PRK (7 APRIL 2012)

 

Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

[XXX]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

[Mr Ares]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

The AS intentionally train people slowly. Not forgetting, of course, that a number of corners were cut with their training, Egwene had forced training with the Seanchan (and Wise Ones - they have an expectation that if you are shown a weave once you should know it), while Nynaeve and Elayne learnt a lot from Moggy. Also, greater strength appears to make it easier to learn weaves.

[randsc]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

 

The Supergirls learning magic quickly really doesn't bother me. And if you think about it, you seldom see criticism of them in regards to their abilities with the Power. Why? Because it's magic. By definition, unrealistic and requiring a suspension of disbelief.

 

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

[XXX]

The whole thing with the super girls is really weird. How difficult can it be to learn the OP if 3 girls can become experts with less than an year of training!!

 

What the hell were the AoL AS doing training and studying for hundreds of years or even the 3 rd age AS studying decades when 3 girls can become masters in less than an year?. It is the same with the Ash'aman. They are walking bombs with about 2 years of training?. It is not even believable even for fantasy.

 

Rand also learns really quickly but atleast he has an AOL master in his head giving out instructions.

 

The Supergirls learning magic quickly really doesn't bother me. And if you think about it, you seldom see criticism of them in regards to their abilities with the Power. Why? Because it's magic. By definition, unrealistic and requiring a suspension of disbelief.

 

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

Magic does require a suspension of belief but should it not be consistent? Mr Ares thinks that the stronger people learn quickly. Well in the AoL the average OP strength was very high and still the forsaken etc took hundreds of years to hone their crafts. I mean they keep referring to the 3rd age AS as half trained children if the training took merely months instead of years that statement makes no sense.

 

As for Egwene's other skills. The only explanation is that it seem that the average AS is mildly retarded with only some few bright exceptions.

[Suttree]

What is harder to stomache is their sudden abilities in more mundane areas. The notion that Egwene would suddenly be such an able politician (and strategist, and logician, and lawyer) as to be able to easily best women who have studied those areas for hundreds of years requires just too much of a suspension of disbelief, for me.

 

I agree. Same with Perrin and his military planning, out scheming Queens like Alliandre, being a better warrior than Aiel etc. I know Faile helped a bit but the same could be said for Siuan about Egwene. The whole thing just breaks down when looked at closely.

[SuperFade]

Perrin, Mat and Rand all have the excuse of being Ta'veren and having the Pattern nudge things their way when needed. Egwene doesn't have that excuse hence her opponents suddenly becoming idiots is far less excusable.

[randsc]

Right, the ta'veren aspect moves those characters more into the "magic" realm, and makes their sudden super-competence less jarring. But I think Suttree is right; the sudden development of military leadership is more jarring with Perrin than with, for example, Mat. Because Mat's is more easily explained with the "magic" elements of the books. On the other hand, Perrin's development of facility in TAR isn't jarring, because there the "magic" associated with Perrin has been developed thoughout the books.

 

One other thing about Perrin's arc is that he might become, inexplicably, better than his opponents at certain things, but those opponents don't suddenly become idiots. The Aiel can still fight, for example. The Aes Sedai Egwene faces, on the other hand, can barely feed themselves.

 

This is also why I find Elayne's development less difficult to swallow than Egwene's. At least Elayne has a lifetime of training to explain her political skills. My dirty little secret, as the board's official Egwene-Hater-In-Chief, is that I started out as much more of an Elayne-hater. But I now find Elayne (barely) tolerable, and really don't care for Egwene all that much.

[Vardar]

The reason I hate Eggy is because she has the fatal flaw of believing herself ot always be right. There's a thin line between self assurence and conciedeness, and most people can't tell the difference. You can be sure of yourself without being cocky.

 

At work I'm regarded as "never admitting I'm wrong," I always respond with, I'm happy if someone proves me wrong, I can't help it that I refuse to take a stance until I examine the issue from all sides and come up with a logical explaination. If I'm frequently right, that doesn't mean I won't admit when I'm wrong..

 

Eggy refuses to admit she's wrong about anything. It's very childish. Yes she had to grow up fast, and deal with women 5 times her age trying to control her, but that's no reason to point out the faults of everyone around you and admit you have none. Like one phrase that really got me was her being upset that Rand's people bonded Aes Sedai, or that he let some swear fealty to him, but she doesn't see anything wrong with the reverse.

 

Basically Eggy embodies all that wrong with women in this world. (The world of the book). They think men are good for nothing, lazy, stupid, arrogant sloths who need to be lead around. Eggy feels that way about men, AND the rest of the world.