What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Maleshub]

Like and dislike of characters is what being a reader is about. And everyone is entitled to liking or disliking certain aspects of a character. Any reader can say that as that is a reader's right.

 

But when we discuss or argue a character's actions, that is where interpretation of events and textual evidence and reference comes into play. If X character is vilified for a certain act, thought, or expression and Y character is excused for that same thing when the circumstances are similar, then we'll have an argument.

 

And sometimes, a reader can excuse his favorite character for some actions that the same reader finds abhorrent when done by another character. And when the fans of this other character defend him or her, the discussion tends to drag.

 

Anyway, there are many ways to interpret and read a character or an event. And therein lies the beauty of the story and writing. I might never convince you that Egwene is a strong and powerfully written character; and you'll probably never convince me that she's a power-hungry bitch. But at least each we can try and have a nice discussion on the virtues and vices of character without turning it into a personal affront or a shouting match.

 

One of the problems I've noticed in discussing Egwene and other character is mixing reader feelings with critical reading and fan analysis of actions. That occasionally leads to different scales to weigh characters: lenient scales with full understanding and sympathy for favorite characters, and harsh, no-quarter, no understanding scales for hated characters. It would be nice if we can agree to judge character actions by one scale.

[XXX]

Al Thor will retire to the dustbin of history? lol. The dragon will be remembered a whole lot more than a 2 bit amyrlin like Egwene in history. The Dragon is the most important soul in the last 2 ages.

 

Can't even get a 2 bit amyrlin to follow him. The ring of tamyrlin seems far far away. how the mighty have fallen. get ready for the end of AMOL when rand scurries off to the sunset with min while egwene rules the world with logain.

 

With Logain?..for 3000 years all the Amyrlins have had absolute power over the world but Egwene will have to share with a man? How the Amyrlin has fallen.

[Suttree]

OK Suttree and all of you people who support Egwene here is the deal. Before I get on with the main post there is a little aside never said that Egwene is not going to fight on the side of light . In fact if you go back and take a look. I have posted somewhere that she is going to be integral to the win at TG. In fact, i have maintained throughout that none of Rand's harem is going to be there at final strike at SG. Its going to be the original Fellowship that left from two rivers who are going to do it.

 

Well if that is her main goal, to make sure the WT is strong in order to face the Shadow at TG and it is the motivation for her actions how is she a power hungry bitch?

 

Anyways getting back to the main reason for posting. I mean let me clear one more thing I really like and respect suttree. When I am addressing suttree I am usually talking to the whole bunch. So, its nothing personal. Here is the deal. you see that I have started getting on your nerves let me recant that I have started irritating you. You do not know me, you have no idea what kind of person I am or who I am but you still feel irritated by my comments. In reality I should not matter to you but it does not happen that way...Then why am I not allowed t be irritated by eggy?

 

Mudd, I have known you for some time on these boards and you seem like a good guy. I'm not irritated by you so much as irritated by your refusal to stick to points when debating on this topic. You have every right to not like Egwene as a character but if you give a reason why(such it not being written that she would listen to Rand at the FoM)and we give a direct quote showing that you were wrong on that point, then you have to concede it. Instead of doing so you just flit on to some other topic and bring up more totally unrelated points. It's just a little tough to take things seriously when you go about it that way.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Suttree

[muddasssir]

Ok, I guess it is a fair point but what you re not realizing is that what you take as a given is your own view point and others might interpret differently. For instance somewhere I asked a question that when she agreed to talk about it and you gane me a quote from ToM now you see it as a promise that they will talk but I take it into wider context with all the other things being said and done by all the characters. Including those closing scenes with Gawyn where she makes the typical spiel that Rand wants her to stop him "you know my memory lol" but it was just after her arrival at FoM. I mean if you take them together to me it seems more like a threat rather than a promise to talk. Similarly, there was that argument about WT being the only force on the side of light that is not ready to face the TG again most of you countered it with WT being ready for 3000 years but if you take a look, their preparation was exposed by Seanchan attack and how noneffective they were against it. Again you chose to completely ignore that main thrust of my argument that all the main forces of light that eggy was gathering were already geared up for TG and i have alredy mentioned it above. gtg to office and I will continue it another time.

[Suttree]

Ok, I guess it is a fair point but what you re not realizing is that what you take as a given is your own view point and others might interpret differently. For instance somewhere I asked a question that when she agreed to talk about it and you gane me a quote from ToM now you see it as a promise that they will talk but I take it into wider context with all the other things being said and done by all the characters. Including those closing scenes with Gawyn where she makes the typical spiel that Rand wants her to stop him "you know my memory lol" but it was just after her arrival at FoM. I mean if you take them together to me it seems more like a threat rather than a promise to talk.

 

Rands says we will talk at the FoM and Egwene answers "very well". So despite agreeing flat out to further discussion you think she will just show up and what? Refuse to listen and instead attack him? Come on man...

 

Similarly, there was that argument about WT being the only force on the side of light that is not ready to face the TG again most of you countered it with WT being ready for 3000 years but if you take a look, their preparation was exposed by Seanchan attack and how noneffective they were against it. Again you chose to completely ignore that main thrust of my argument that all the main forces of light that eggy was gathering were already geared up for TG and i have alredy mentioned it above.

 

Ok maybe something is getting lost in translation here? What I said was "AS have been the major force holding the Shadow at bay for three thousand years, although other groups may be more effective at this point, you can't fault the Amrylin for thinking the duty falls on her." It wasn't even in response to one of your posts, it was addressed to someone else, so not sure how I countered with that to you? The point is with the AS being the ones responsible for leading the light against the Shadow ever since the Breaking it is unrealistic for Egwene to think all of a sudden they are not best equipped to do so(even if it is true). It had nothing to do with who is ready and who isn't. Her intentions are what count her and you make it seem as if she is hungry for personnel power, with devious goals like some tyrant which is patently false. Her goal is to face the Shadow and that is what she has been preparing the WT for. BS hammered us over the head with this point through TGS and ToM with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Egwene is going into FoM to stop Rand from breaking the seals . In the end of ToM she talks about hoping that Rand does not "force her hand" in this matter. Does that sound like she is going with an open mind?On the other hand Rand is thinking that he was break the seals regardless of what Egwene wants.

 

So this is not a discussion in any menaingful sense where both parties go in and treat the matter on the merits presented by the opposing party.

[kght22]

Egwene is going into FoM to stop Rand from breaking the seals . In the end of ToM she talks about hoping that Rand does not "force her hand" in this matter. Does that sound like she is going with an open mind?On the other hand Rand is thinking that he was break the seals regardless of what Egwene wants.

 

So this is not a discussion in any menaingful sense where both parties go in and treat the matter on the merits presented by the opposing party.

the thing is that rand holds all the cards. and he has gathered all the armies but the seanchan, who are likely to attend anyway. he apparently intends to get agreements from the leaders in the westlands if he can at tfom. but if he cannot he will still do what he must as best he can. it is possible, but only barely, that someone might have a better solution to the problem than junking the old seals before starting a new, moiraine might even have that key. but i think rand's objective with tfom is to gather forces for the light so that they can get organized even without his influence. we can only hope that eggy and rand come to an agreement, but we also know that egwene and tuon have yet to do something important togather based on egwene's dreams. and that could be blocking rand for all we know.

[Suttree]

Egwene is going into FoM to stop Rand from breaking the seals . In the end of ToM she talks about hoping that Rand does not "force her hand" in this matter. Does that sound like she is going with an open mind?On the other hand Rand is thinking that he was break the seals regardless of what Egwene wants.

 

So this is not a discussion in any menaingful sense where both parties go in and treat the matter on the merits presented by the opposing party.

 

The point was earlier Mudd claimed...

 

Ok where did she said that she is going to listen to what Rand has to say? I did not read it in any of the books so please enlighten my poor soul and give me the quote.

 

Which was quite clearly not true.

 

Nevertheless this has already been covered in the thread...

 

So we are condemning her for something that could potentially happen in the future? Why don't we wait it out and see how the meeting goes. If she listens to Rand, he gives Egwene a concrete plan from whatever Min finds out and Egwene still decides to try to come against him with force then I will be right there with you in shouting her down.

you have to admit though that from what we see in her head that she is as stacked against rand as she can without being red. (which is kind of ironic since i can't recall her being offered the red during the uniting the tower dealy)

She has already agreed they will talk about it more(quote above). We can not judge her for thinking about a hypothetical situation.

 

As has been mentioned numerous times...if she shows up, listens to him lay out a reasonable plan and refuses to change her mind and tries to oppose him in some way then I will condemn her as well. What we can not do is pronounce her guilty of something for thinking about potential scenarios in her head. So unless you think she will try to stop him without listening this speculation is pointless.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Suttree

[Kudzu]

Have you ever been in an argument with a woman that ended with her saying "Fine, do what you want."?

 

I hope for your sake you didn't take her literally.

 

"Very well" is hardly what I'd call call a statement of intent to have a reasonable discussion with an open mind. I'm not saying she isn't, just that all that statement says is she's going to have a discussion, not that she intends to listen to reason.

 

I'm not an Egwene hater. Sometimes I like her and sometimes I don't. She was mildley annoying in EotW, was much improved in TGH. She was a right little b!#ch in TDR contradicting Nynaeve at every turn for no good reason, at least she got a good slapping for it. I enjoyed her time with the Wise Ones. Except the bits where she felt the need to call Rand an arogant woolhead whenever she saw him. Even though she never actually bothered to sit down and have a discussion with him about what he was going through.

 

Her time with the rebels was all a bit meh for me. The whole arc was one of the more boring in the series, but I can't recall anything that pissed me off wildley. Though I'm only on aCoS in my reread, so haven't read most of it since the books were released. I may have a different opinion in a couple of weeks.

 

I really enjoyed her as a captive in the tower, some of her best moments in my opinion. She took a turn for the worse as Amyrlin of the Tower. She comes across as arrogant and bossy. Which I guess is to be expected when you're the ruler of one of the most powerful organisations in the world. Siuan was the same, but she had the experience and mystique to back it up. I think it doesn't quite gel with me with Egwene because I know she was a wide eyed village girl only a couple of years ago.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kudzu

[dileeph]

ok so Egwene thinks she is always right. So what? So does every other person-in-power I have seen in wot. Take Morgase ... Perrin saved her skin and see what she thinks of him.

Egwene was given the role of Amyrlin and she simply had to do what an Amyrlin had to do - keep Aes Sedai interests first.

Frankly I like the way the character build up was done. You don't have to like her, and may be you are not supposed to.

 

Personally I root for whatever character I am currently reading about ... even Taim

 

 

.... although I seem to have this slight problem reading sections about a certain (red)golden haired trull.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Black Hammer

[Luckers]

Personally I root for whatever character I am currently reading about ... even Taim

 

I read that as 'Personally I root every character I am currently reading about... even Taim.'

 

:O

[muddasssir]

OK continuing the discussion here is what I think going to happen at FoM. Right when we are just about to have the big show down Between DR and the Amyrilin. someone is going to bring in the news that Andor is under attack. As soon as they are going to gather to go to Andor. Another mesage is going to come in that WT is under attack from Seanchan. Now question is and I am asking this question of both sides of divide. What will egwene do? Will she go and defend people from Trolloc cook pots or she will rush back to defend her precious WT. Screaming Preciousssss my precioussss.

 

AS Bey Bladers called it LET IT RIP

[Suttree]

Thought this recent quote from BS would make Elan and Kael happy...

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

PRK (7 APRIL 2012)

 

Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thought this recent quote from BS would make Elan and Kael happy...

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

PRK (7 APRIL 2012)

 

Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

 

i don't think people don't want her to be bad ass. I think most of us (except those who have sworn a blood-feud against her) actually WANT to see her get bad ass. As I have said in other threads about it. Egwene's character development is incomplete, and it irks people that her chapters and the reactions of the people around her read like she has already completed her growth, when she obviously has various flaws that need to be adressed (not personality, but for the plot, mainly her hatred of the Seanchan needs to be put aside for the greater good, and her compulsive urges to oppose Rand at every turn -which she has, when have those two ever agreed?.)

 

I think the majority have high hopes that she will come to an understanding and realise what needs to be done. When that happens, I for one will love her character. She has great potential at the moment, she is pretty bad ass already, but still has a ways to go yet.

 

And I feel sorry for the OP. "I don't want this to turn into another Egwene arguement". Unfortunately my friend, you have completely misjudged the tenacity of the Dragonmount community.

[randsc]

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

[Suttree]

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

Don't think there is any chance it will happen but that would be fing awesome. Seriously would step things up big time.

[Elan Tedronai]

The only thing that would make me accept egwene turning to the shadow would be her taking out perrin and elayne in a fight

[muddasssir]

she could be thirteen thirteened but that is just going to hand us lot more ammunition as to how incompetent she really is and even I do not want that lol

[Kahsm]

I think the majority have high hopes that she will come to an understanding and realise what needs to be done. When that happens, I for one will love her character. She has great potential at the moment, she is pretty bad ass already, but still has a ways to go yet.

 

This seems to suggest she's horribly off-track due to some fault of her own. If you're talking about the Seals, that's Rand's fault. And about the Seanchan, we don't know that she does have to put that aside. You can make that theory from what you know as a reader, but again, I'm not sure she has any reason to believe that herself, yet.

 

Thought this recent quote from BS would make Elan and Kael happy...

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

PRK (7 APRIL 2012)

 

Brandon tried to get moments for every character in A Memory of Light. Egwene is ready to be bad ass in the Last Battle; her character development is done.

 

Well, that paraphrasing feels rather Egwene biased lol. Did Brandon actually say "bad ass"? And what does "her character development is done" mean? That almost sounds like someone trying to appease a particular criticism. Dog whistle politics, so to speak. But yes, I like the sound of it anyway!

 

OK continuing the discussion here is what I think going to happen at FoM. Right when we are just about to have the big show down Between DR and the Amyrilin. someone is going to bring in the news that Andor is under attack. As soon as they are going to gather to go to Andor. Another mesage is going to come in that WT is under attack from Seanchan. Now question is and I am asking this question of both sides of divide. What will egwene do? Will she go and defend people from Trolloc cook pots or she will rush back to defend her precious WT. Screaming Preciousssss my precioussss.

 

AS Bey Bladers called it LET IT RIP

 

Well, in her Accepted's test Egwene was similarly forced to choose between Rand and the WT, and she chose both. So we already have some insight into how she would approach a situation like that. And it wouldn't be to just let one side down for the other as you seem to be baselessly suggesting in the way you played up the horror of cook pots and scoffed at the importance of the WT while pretending to pose a question.

 

Seriously, I could say "Will she defend a single city in a vast world of people or will she rush back to defend the only organization that has stood against the shadow for two thousand years." I think they call that push polling.

 

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

Don't think there is any chance it will happen but that would be fing awesome. Seriously would step things up big time.

 

Careful, they're trying to trick you into agreeing that she's so narcissistic and power hungry she's on the verge of pulling a Lanfear. So I highlighted the important part of your quote for you.

 

In so far as the story goes, I don't really agree. WOT is already too black and white. It would be better if Egwene formed a 3rd faction and opposed Rand, even if she was wrong. Maybe Rand allies first with the seanchan, Egwene can't stomach that and she's blinded in all other things by her past with them. That would be nifty and still effectively make her a "Bad guy" while not just making her another DO minion. Elaida style I guess.

[randsc]

Jesus Kael, seriously, lighten up.

[Elan Tedronai]

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

but what if she murders rand and nyneve in the process? ;)

 

she could be thirteen thirteened but that is just going to hand us lot more ammunition as to how incompetent she really is and even I do not want that lol

 

You do not heal a broken tower by being incompetent ;)

[muddasssir]

no you just need to be blue eyed girl of the writer and you do not have to make any sense.

[XXX]

I hope she turns. The Lanfear of this age and it will gel with the Arthurian theme of the series.

[Elan Tedronai]

no you just need to be blue eyed girl of the writer and you do not have to make any sense.

 

such anger and hate. One step closer to using the dark side of the force!

 

Seriously though it is sounding a bit like jumping the shark to me. All her negatives is attributed to her. All her positives are attributed to her being the blue eyed or in this case brown eyed girl of the writer :)

Edited April 12, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[randsc]

Most bad ass would be if she turned. Which would be consistent with the WoT-as-retelling-of-Authurian-legend theme. And would make her probably my favorite character. Which she currently...isn't, quite.

 

but what if she murders rand and nyneve in the process? ;)

 

That would be fine. Rand, in particular, is clearly going to die. And I don't know that we need happy endings for all. This is the difference between people like you and Kael and most of the rest of us. You're so invested with your love for a particular character that you will only be satisfied by that character's complete triumph and universal acknowledgement of her awesomeness. Nynaeve happens to be my favorite character currently, but if she dies, so be it.

 

she could be thirteen thirteened but that is just going to hand us lot more ammunition as to how incompetent she really is and even I do not want that lol

 

You do not heal a broken tower by being incompetent ;)

 

No, you heal it through amazingly contrived idiocy on the part of your adversaries, combined with Mary-Sue-ness, all amounting to something barely short of deus ex machina. "Egwene saved the Tower, because."