What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Elan Tedronai]

lol@ benefit of the doubt

 

He didnt even had the decency to explain what he was going to do when he smashes the seals to egwene and yet she's supposed to give him benefit of the doubt?

 

Like i said, if a commander in today's armies pulled what rand did, people would seriously question his military credentials. Good thing rand is not NATO's commander

[MasterAblar]

lol@ benefit of the doubt

 

He didnt even had the decency to explain what he was going to do when he smashes the seals to egwene and yet she's supposed to give him benefit of the doubt?

 

Like i said, if a commander in today's armies pulled what rand did, people would seriously question his military credentials. Good thing rand is not NATO's commander

 

If other reliable people back up what said commander has done and there's positive information about the condition of this commander (who also happens to be the savior of the world), then yes I would at least hear him out.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Kahsm]

I suppose I should reserve ultimate judgement until I see Rand's motivations unfold completely, but any problems this causes from Egwene's side are completely Rand's doing.

 

In part yes, but Egwene is responsible for the problems her actions cause.

No, Rand is... because he caused them since her responses are understandable and predictable. The responsibility is on him. She may take responsibility because she doesn't know she was being manipulated, and I'm sure you'll all quote her on it if she does. But we know Rand is trying to puppet her, and the guy holding the strings is responsible for where the puppet goes.

 

Egwene has zero reason to trust him blindly, and more than one reason not to trust him at all, and I don't think he expects or wants her too.

 

And why not give him the benefit of the doubt? It's not like he's been an utter failure at his job so far

And how would she know that? All she sees is him taking over nations, some of which were, until recently, worse off for him having done it. I don't understand what obvious credit you think he has built up that gives him the clout to say something like "We need to break the seals" and to be taken seriously. Particularly since progressive insanity is presumed to be his ultimate fate. So no, she has zero reasons to give him THAT much leniency.

 

Likely, she's dancing to his tune just as he wants, for whatever reason, and therefore she can't be blamed for it.

 

So because Rand expects her to act in a certain manner, she can't be blammed if that manner of acting is foolish? To me it just means he knows her well. Whether he's right in making her dance to his tune is what has yet to be determined.

 

If she were acting foolish, I would agree with you. But she's acting predictably and reasonably, like any sane, non-flighty, person would in a her situation. And in that case, any "damage" that might result is Rand's doing. He's not exploiting a flaw in her, he's using a reasonable and predictable response to his advantage. That just makes him a jerk.

 

And don't bring up that Nynaeve BS about, "but Nynaeve told her he was cool!" Egwene's dismissal of that as potential ta'veren influence is completely justified.

 

Potential being the keyword here. Do you think dismissing something entirely just because there's a possibility that it was caused by his taveren influence is a very smart move by Egwene.

 

I don't budget winning the lottery into my personal finances. It would be foolish to factor that, and every other minutely possible happenstance, into a budget or plan. They are things that are effectively not possible. And really, to make the analogy fit, it's more like saying "You have to decide if you'll win or not and write 1 budget/plan"." Well you're certainly not going to write up a budget on the assumption that you'll win the lottery, even if the chance is there.

 

So yes, I think dismissing something that is almost akin to declaring "the world is flat", which has numerous other explanations like: rand is crazy, and Nynaeve is under ta'veren influence, is a pretty reasonable and responsible position.

 

There's no option here to "wait and see" or "let him gather more proof/evidence". She has to decide if she'll let him or if she'll try to stop him. And given the extreme ludicrousness of the statement, and the alternate explanations for the evidence, the ONLY responsible choice is to stand against him. Unless, of course, you have "faith". Perrin has faith, Nynaeve has faith. Egwene has no reason to have that kind of faith.

 

I'm glad you like Rand so much that you think everyone should have that kind of faith in him, but not having it isn't a character flaw. If anything, it's a character strength.

[Datakim]

The point is moot however, since even if Rand has such control now, Egwene is unaware of it.

 

Actually Rand tried to use his taveren influence on her to try and learn where the rebel Aes Sedai were, and it appeared very much like he was controlling it, at least from Egwene's POV.

 

Err, nowhere in that scene did we even get the idea that Rand was consciously controlling it. He asked for the location, Egwene felt an urge to say, she then embraced saidar and used the ecstacy of that feeling to force herself to defy the ta'veren effect and Rand then felt her channeling via goosebumps and got slightly angry and asked Egwene if she thought he would physically force it out of her. His actions and words make it pretty clear that Rand had no idea any ta'veren effect had happened at all and thought Egwene had embraced Saidar in order to protect herself from Saidin attacks from him. And while Egwene on the other hand is a a bit stunned at being caught in the ta'veren effect, nowhere in her POV is it even implied that she believes Rand has somehow consciously caused it to happen.

 

This was simply another ta'veren effect that happened around Rand, and Egwene had (and would have had) no reason to assume it happened at Rands command. Though it is another interesting bit where Egwene arguably demonstrates the belief that she knows better than the pattern itself does. The Wheel itself wanted Rand to know so he could send Mat to Salidar and set all the necessary events in motion for the Bowl of Winds to be found and for Mat to meet and marry Tuon and so on. Egwene thought she knew better. The Wheel got the better of Egwene in the end though, by sending Rand via ta'veren to spy on the meeting in the world of dreams where she was recalled to Salidar, so he could learn the location as he had to.

 

When it comes to ta'veren, the first time Rand or anyone even thinks that ta'veren can be truly controlled like that, is during the post True Power scene with Cadsuane where Rand threatens her with ta'veren, and Cadsuane is stupefied at the very idea that Rand could actually do it and bend the pattern itself to his conscious whim. You could argue that Rand relies on it when making a bargain with the seafolk, but in that scene it is made clear that Rand does not actually do anything to control ta'veren (or believe he can), but just trusts the pattern to have his back.

 

Infact, every scene where Rand is implied to have the power to force ta'veren to his will, is suggested to be evil. In the Cadsuane scene she sees an evil warping and darkness around him. In the scene where Rand threatens the compulsed boy, Rand threatens the boy while simultaneously all the food/drinks spoil around him. And in the Tuon scene she is terrified of him and thinks him utterly evil. That to me atleast suggests that trying to control or defy ta'veren is an evil thing to do.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Datakim

[MasterAblar]

No, Rand is... because he caused them since her responses are understandable and predictable. The responsibility is on him. She may take responsibility because she doesn't know she was being manipulated, and I'm sure you'll all quote her on it if she does. But we know Rand is trying to puppet her, and the guy holding the strings is responsible for where the puppet goes.

 

Egwene is not a puppet. She has a brain, she can think for herself. Rand just knows how she will think. It doesn't mean that way of thinking is reasonable. If Egwene is not acting reasonably then she is to blame, and Rand is also to blame for putting her in a situation where he knew she would act unreasonably.

 

And how would she know that? All she sees is him taking over nations, some of which were, until recently, worse off for him having done it. I don't understand what obvious credit you think he has built up that gives him the clout to say something like "We need to break the seals" and to be taken seriously. Particularly since progressive insanity is presumed to be his ultimate fate. So no, she has zero reasons to give him THAT much leniency.

 

He's been involved in the defeat of nearly all the Forsaken so far, liberated several countries from them, and cleansed saidin. Apart from Arad Doman, all nations have been better off after his arrival, as Rand himself points out to himself as he leaves Bandar Eban. And overall he's been trying to get everyone ready and united for the Last Battle. It seems to me he's doing a fairly good job. As for his progressive insanity, she notes herself that Rand doesn't sound insane at all when she talks to him, and the Wise Ones and Nyneave should have, if not made it certain, at least made it a strong posibility that Rand is not insane and knows what he is doing. Not to mention the sunlight and good food around him, which, while they say nothing about his insanity or lack thereof, at least point to him being in pretty good shape. Besides, listening to Rand before deciding whether to oppose him or not cannot possibly have negative effects, as opposed to making her decision before hearing him out.

 

If she were acting foolish, I would agree with you. But she's acting predictably and reasonably, like any sane, non-flighty, person would in a her situation. And in that case, any "damage" that might result is Rand's doing. He's not exploiting a flaw in her, he's using a reasonable and predictable response to his advantage. That just makes him a jerk.

 

I said foolish because we were speaking of blame. If Rand expected Egwene to do something incredibly wise, and Egwene did so, should he get sole credit, or does Egwene get some as well?

 

To me, while Egwene's response is predictable, it doesn't mean it's reasonable. In fact denying anything that could lead to her being wrong on the subject of the seals, such as Nyneave's opinion, is anything but reasonable. After reading Darlin's letter, she assumed he was on her side, whereas he said he wanted to question Rand, not neccessarily oppose. And even after seeing that Perrin would support Rand, there is still no thought from her that maybe Rand knows something she does not.

 

I don't budget winning the lottery into my personal finances. It would be foolish to factor that, and every other minutely possible happenstance, into a budget or plan. They are things that are effectively not possible. And really, to make the analogy fit, it's more like saying "You have to decide if you'll win or not and write 1 budget/plan"." Well you're certainly not going to write up a budget on the assumption that you'll win the lottery, even if the chance is there.

 

So yes, I think dismissing something that is almost akin to declaring "the world is flat", which has numerous other explanations like: rand is crazy, and Nynaeve is under ta'veren influence, is a pretty reasonable and responsible position.

 

Egwene's thinking is that Nyneave must be under taveren influence because she normally sees the right of things, and since breaking the seals is clearly wrong, the only reasonable explanation is that Nyneave is under taveren influence. Which doesn't explain why others such as Elayne (at least initially), Darlin, and Perrin, were not opposed to Rand breaking the seals. It ultimately comes down to Egwene thinking that they all must be wrong because she is clearly right. Which is foolish, because the debate is not about whether breaking the seals for no reason is a good idea or not, it's about whether it is neccessary to break them in order to reseal the DO, which is quite different. Afterall it's something that Egwene knows nothing of. Her opposition is based on her belief that breaking the seals is risky (which is quite true, and Rand admitted it) and that surely Rand can reseal the DO without breaking them (which has no basis whatsoever).

 

There's no option here to "wait and see" or "let him gather more proof/evidence".

 

Of course there is, and the oppurtunity for that is at the FoM.

 

She has to decide if she'll let him or if she'll try to stop him. And given the extreme ludicrousness of the statement, and the alternate explanations for the evidence, the ONLY responsible choice is to stand against him.

 

Like I said above, his statement his that the seals have to be broken in order to reseal the DO. Which she has no reason to believe is ludicrous. Which means standing against him without any knowledge of the subject is irresponsible. What is responsible is to learn why he thinks he has to do this, and then make her decision.

 

Unless, of course, you have "faith". Perrin has faith, Nynaeve has faith. Egwene has no reason to have that kind of faith.

 

Nyneave doesn't have faith, she sees the sense in Rand's reasons. Perrin has faith, but he also intuitively sees the logic in Rand's plan. It's not a question of faith anyway.

 

I'm glad you like Rand so much that you think everyone should have that kind of faith in him, but not having it isn't a character flaw. If anything, it's a character strength.

 

Again it's not a question of faith, and it's definitely not a question of liking Rand either. I'm objective enough to be able to judge Egwene's actions without being influenced by my liking of Rand's character.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Elan Tedronai]

Say what you like about egwene but character wise she is not as bad as rand al thor who has positively nothing redeeming about him.

 

The only character in a series where the hero is completely unlikable. And that is saying a lot. You can't even use the excuse of the taint in his meeting with egwene.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[Suttree]

He's been involved in the defeat of nearly all the Forsaken so far, liberated several countries from them, and cleansed saidin. Apart from Arad Doman, all nations have been better off after his arrival, as Rand himself points out to himself as he leaves Bandar Eban. And overall he's been trying to get everyone ready and united for the Last Battle. It seems to me he's doing a fairly good job. As for his progressive insanity, she notes herself that Rand doesn't sound insane at all when she talks to him, and the Wise Ones and Nyneave should have, if not made it certain, at least made it a strong posibility that Rand is not insane and knows what he is doing. Not to mention the sunlight and good food around him, which, while they say nothing about his insanity or lack thereof, at least point to him being in pretty good shape. Besides, listening to Rand before deciding whether to oppose him or not cannot possibly have negative effects, as opposed to making her decision before hearing him out.

 

You keep saying making the decision before hearing him out as if she already has taken some monumental steps to stop him and will not listen to him. That is most certainly not the case. In addition based on Rand's actions from around the Damona mountain campaign on she has a number of reasons to not believe in him. His actions in TGS alone are more than enough.

 

Like I said above, his statement his that the seals have to be broken in order to reseal the DO. Which she has no reason to believe is ludicrous. Which means standing against him without any knowledge of the subject is irresponsible. What is responsible is to learn why he thinks he has to do this, and then make her decision.

 

Calling her actions irresponsible is going way too far. If she didn't set things up to stop Rand breaking the seals without hearing a plan and his reasons why she would not be doing her duty as Amrylin. Again if her opposition amounts to gathering the armies for Rand and then listening at the FoM and eventually agreeing with him then all this condemnation looks extremely misguided.

[Maleshub]

1- What the stupid woman should realize that if the wheel wanted someone to oppose Rand.

2- She is there so that she can see past the Dragon Reborn and see Rand. the sheepherder that she can trust but no she has to be the bloody white tower with light shining out of her every mention-able and unmentionable orifice.

 

Egwene realizes that Rand wants someone to oppose him:

 

"Egwene, what if al'Thor isn't coming? What if he did this to distract everyone from whatever else he's doing?"

 

"Why would he do that?" Egwene said. "He's already proven that he can avoid being found, if he wants to." She shook her head. "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

 

 

Suttree has already answered the second point.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Theodril

[Kahsm]

...

 

Suttree answered some, I'll do the others or we'll spiral out of control here. Though particularly note his point about her planning for the more likely chance that Rand said something crazy, but still not actually committed to putting him in a box again or planning to collar him no matter what he says.

 

Egwene isn't refusing to consider it seriously because she thinks she's right and is just too stubborn to give it up. Perrin's "logic" is based on a blacksmithing logic... I doubt many channelers would consider that an apt analogy. Even if he's right, it's not really evidence, it's just a nifty similarity. So yes, Perrin has "Faith" that happens to be supported by his own limited experience.

 

Egwene is refusing to consider it seriously because the statement is ludicrous. "The world is flat." That's what Rand said. How many people do you think would agree with that when there's zero evidence? All he's got is testimony from two biased (magically or otherwise) parties.

 

Edit: Just to add more support to Egwene, Nyn and Perrin's "faith" was somewhat balanced by the shock and horror she saw when she told the Wise Ones. They clearly agreed with Egwene. So it's not like she's standing alone in this.

 

As for Rand's accomplishments. Many people might suggest his job isn't to do those things but to defeat the dark one. Even the good deeds could be seen as the Dragon meddling where he shouldn't be. Take Elayne's reaction about giving her the thrones for example. You and I know better, because we know Rand is working off cryptic guidance that Egwene is not privy too. Again, this comes down to the fact that we know more than she does. So, did she take a reasonable position based on what she could possibly know and what Rand was willing to tell her? Yes she did.

 

Look at it from the other side, if Egwene had simply gone along with Rand, based on faith or some long-ago teen romance, wouldn't that seem ridiculous? Just about everything from her perspective says that it's a bad plan and she has very little reason to think otherwise. So she plans to stop him if she can.

 

Rand knows it, he's apparently trying to use it to his advantage -- I don't see how you don't know it.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Kael Pyralis

[dexterryu]

I don't mind Egwene as much as some... but she gets under my skin now the same way that Nyneave did in the first 5 books -she just assumes she's right and others are wrong.

 

The only issue I have with her in the scene being discussed is that she didn't even consider WHY Rand would want to break the seals. She doesn't even consider that it COULD be the correct way to properly re-seal the Dark one. Rand even mentioned that he needed the help of the women to do it properly and that part of why the current seals are breaking/didn't work permanently are because it was done without them.

[Suttree]

Rand even mentioned that he needed the help of the women to do it properly and that part of why the current seals are breaking/didn't work permanently are because it was done without them.

 

I know Rand said he needs the female AS but he is going to do something completely different this time. Again Rand thinks he needs both but isn't sure...

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

RJ has said if Saidar had been involved originally the only difference would have been Saidar being tainted as well. It has nothing to do with the seals breaking down.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

Actually, Rand says he will need "the women", not AS per say.

[Suttree]

Actually, Rand says he will need "the women", not AS per say.

 

Do you think he won't be using any AS in his circle or other plans?

[randsc]

In his circle? I certainly think that is possible. Avi, Alivia and Tuon are all frequently mentioned possibilities, and none is an AS.

 

If I were betting, I would bet on Nynaeve being one, but we don't know that she will be.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Say what you like about egwene but character wise she is not as bad as rand al thor who has positively nothing redeeming about him.

 

The only character in a series where the hero is completely unlikable. And that is saying a lot. You can't even use the excuse of the taint in his meeting with egwene.

Seems fairly subjective as people may have the opposite opinion. On a different note, while I personally disagree with your opinion, I like the fact that you state your opinion instead of trying to use quotes or supposed facts to tell me I am wrong for disliking Egwene as a character.

 

I can understand your disdain for people who bash Egwene, which is quite frankly overblown. I can also understand why some people have become sick of Rand, as his darker persona became quite stale.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Xo Meltdown oX

[Elan Tedronai]

Rand even mentioned that he needed the help of the women to do it properly and that part of why the current seals are breaking/didn't work permanently are because it was done without them.

 

I know Rand said he needs the female AS but he is going to do something completely different this time. Again Rand thinks he needs both but isn't sure...

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

RJ has said if Saidar had been involved originally the only difference would have been Saidar being tainted as well. It has nothing to do with the seals breaking down.

 

 

Sounds like a red herring. Last time the one power was used to close off the bore saidin was tainted. The one power cannot fix the bore. There's something missing in ths equation

[Guest PiotrekS]

Ripping a hole in the fabric of the Pattern, he Traveled with the True Power

 

(Path of Daggers, chapter 2)

 

I'm not sold on the idea of the Pattern being the thing to seal the Bore - even DO minions, when given access to the True Power, can rip holes in it. The DO can seriously mess with it even from within his prison. Moreover, we have Graendal's statement that whatever the Creator can make, the DO can destroy, though it probably isn't entirely reliable.

 

Sealing the Bore with the Pattern itself is also doomed to get tangled in paradoxes - the Pattern is some kind of physical representation of everything that happens in the world, it is everything as seen by the beings of higher order, the Creator and the DO. The acts of creating the Bore and sealing it are part of the Pattern as well, so sealing with the Pattern...I don't think it is the answer.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ripping a hole in the fabric of the Pattern, he Traveled with the True Power

 

(Path of Daggers, chapter 2)

 

I'm not sold on the idea of the Pattern being the thing to seal the Bore - even DO minions, when given access to the True Power, can rip holes in it. The DO can seriously mess with it even from within his prison. Moreover, we have Graendal's statement that whatever the Creator can make, the DO can destroy, though it probably isn't entirely reliable.

 

Sealing the Bore with the Pattern itself is also doomed to get tangled in paradoxes - the Pattern is some kind of physical representation of everything that happens in the world, it is everything as seen by the beings of higher order, the Creator and the DO. The acts of creating the Bore and sealing it are part of the Pattern as well, so sealing with the Pattern...I don't think it is the answer.

 

well then how are you going to close of the breach in the pattern? because that's what the bore is. Shayol ghul is described as the one place where the pattern is at it's thinnest. once the bore was drilled, what lay on the other side was the dark one.

 

When LTT used sadin to lay a patch on the bore, it was ineffectual because it was not of the same form as the pattern. it's like inserting a plaster into a wound. That wont work, Only the skin healing back can fix the wound. Only the prison remade whole as it once by the creator can fix the sitation.

 

and for that to happen, only the pattern can fix it.

 

ofcourse the problem in all this how can you do that with shaitan on the otherside basically keeping the bore open. I suspect this is where the one power comes in

Edited March 31, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[Cybertrolloc]

If all the characters in the books are stupid, then why should you believe the conclusions and observations they make? Particularly the Forsaken, since they've obviously bought a bridge to Brooklyn :)

[Kahsm]

Actually, Rand says he will need "the women", not AS per say.

 

Not in this quote he doesn't:

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support.

 

He says that to Egwene, which suggests quite strongly he means the female Aes Sedai. And since he says "this time" which is obviously a reference to LTT's campaign, he must mean the feamle Aes Sedai because they were the ones who denied him "last time". I'm sure other female channelers are also invited, but I suspect Rand knows Egwene will tie/is tying/has tied them to her.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene realizes that Rand wants someone to oppose him:

 

He actually tells Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him, so her opposition itself is not what he wants. Besides Egwene thinks Rand wants her to oppose him in order to stop him, which is not the case. She thinks him coming to her was a sort of subconscious plea for help. She seems to be trying to make Rand's actions make sense without opening the posibility that he may be right.

 

You keep saying making the decision before hearing him out as if she already has taken some monumental steps to stop him and will not listen to him. That is most certainly not the case.

 

Gathering all the armies that she can to convince him not to go through with his plan seems like a pretty big step towards trying to stop him.

 

She won't really have a choice but to listen to him. That's not really the issue. She, just like Rand, believe she is right. Listening to the other is no big deal because nothing they could possibly say would make them change their minds, from their point of view that is. Rand and Egwene both think they're right. That much is clear.

 

In addition based on Rand's actions from around the Damona mountain campaign on she has a number of reasons to not believe in him. His actions in TGS alone are more than enough.

 

Nyneave only joined Rand in WH. Before then Egwene has no way of knowing what Rand's actions were except through rumours. According to Berelaine, the rumours say that Rand won a great victory in the Damona campaign. From then on, until tGS, there's really nothing of interest as far as Rand's actions go. His actions in TGS look bad for sure, but are they really reason enough not to give him any credit whatsoever on a subject which she knows nothing of? Besides it's pretty clear that he gotten better since then. How much better needs to be determined, but that's just another reason why she should wait until the FoM before deciding whether he can be trusted or not.

 

As an aside, his actions in the Damona campaign were really not that bad. He went against Bashere's advise true, but he also knew something that Bashere didn't and that is that he had Callandor. And frankly if it wasn't for the completely unpredictable flaw in Callandor, his plan would have worked perfectly, and the Seanchan would have been crushed without the backlash on his own forces Of course that doesn't change the fact that he was acting like a huge arrogant jerk throughout the whole thing, especially towards the Ashaman. Great bit of writing though. LTT was at his best.

 

Calling her actions irresponsible is going way too far. If she didn't set things up to stop Rand breaking the seals without hearing a plan and his reasons why she would not be doing her duty as Amrylin. Again if her opposition amounts to gathering the armies for Rand and then listening at the FoM and eventually agreeing with him then all this condemnation looks extremely misguided.

 

True, saying she was irresponsible is not quite right. She just wasn't as responsible as she could, and should, have been.

 

I'm not condemning her based on what she might do at the FoM, I'm condemning her based on the fact that she has not considered that she may be the one who is wrong, and that Rand is right. As Amrylin she has to consider all posibilities, particularly on such a crucial matter. That's her responsibility, which is why I'm saying she has not been as responsible as she should have been. Afterall, by choosing to oppose Rand, she has caused a conflict, and if she turns out to be wrong, then it looks bad for her and the WT, especially if the nations of the leaders whose she has called to the FoM are attacked. Whether it is fair or not, she will be the one blamed for it.

 

Suttree answered some, I'll do the others or we'll spiral out of control here. Though particularly note his point about her planning for the more likely chance that Rand said something crazy, but still not actually committed to putting him in a box again or planning to collar him no matter what he says.

 

Well I should hope she isn't, especially since she has no reason to think that what he said crazy, not least because she knows stricly nothing on the subject.

 

Egwene isn't refusing to consider it seriously because she thinks she's right and is just too stubborn to give it up.

 

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Her being sure that she is right and refusing to consider that she isn't is precisly what the problem is.

 

Perrin's "logic" is based on a blacksmithing logic... I doubt many channelers would consider that an apt analogy. Even if he's right, it's not really evidence, it's just a nifty similarity. So yes, Perrin has "Faith" that happens to be supported by his own limited experience.

 

That's pretty much it yes. But I never said I agreed with Perrin on this did I? I agree with Darlin.

 

Egwene is refusing to consider it seriously because the statement is ludicrous. "The world is flat." That's what Rand said.

 

Saying that the seals need to be broken in order to reseal the bore properly is ludicrous? And based on what has she decided that? What does she know about how resealing the DO is supposed to be done?

 

How many people do you think would agree with that when there's zero evidence? All he's got is testimony from two biased (magically or otherwise) parties.

 

Well, perhaps she should wait for him to give his evidence then, instead of assuming his evidence will not be sufficient.

Edit: Just to add more support to Egwene, Nyn and Perrin's "faith" was somewhat balanced by the shock and horror she saw when she told the Wise Ones. They clearly agreed with Egwene. So it's not like she's standing alone in this.

 

They were suprised and alarmed yes, but they were not horrified and they didn't say they agreed with Egwene. They said it was disturbing news and that they would consult with him on it. Neither of those show opposition. They just show it's a very serious matter. Of course it's quite possible that Egwene interpreted that as agreeing with her, which would still support your argument, as it's what Egwene believes rather then the truth that matters here.

As for Rand's accomplishments. Many people might suggest his job isn't to do those things but to defeat the dark one. Even the good deeds could be seen as the Dragon meddling where he shouldn't be. Take Elayne's reaction about giving her the thrones for example. You and I know better, because we know Rand is working off cryptic guidance that Egwene is not privy too. Again, this comes down to the fact that we know more than she does. So, did she take a reasonable position based on what she could possibly know and what Rand was willing to tell her? Yes she did.

 

People might believe that, but Egwene is not just anybody. She knows the Forsaken are loose, and she knows the Last Battle is not just "Rand cut's his wrists at SG, spills blood on rock, DO defeated and sealed, game over, the end". The point is that Rand has not been screwing everything up. In a case where he had been, she might be justified in not really trusting him and his ideas. Particularly is dangerous and risky ideas.

Look at it from the other side, if Egwene had simply gone along with Rand, based on faith or some long-ago teen romance, wouldn't that seem ridiculous?

 

Yes it would be, but I never said otherwise, quite the opposite in fact (although we've gone over this subject so many times, it's quite possible that it's in another thread that I said that, supporting him without reason is pretty much just as foolish as opposing him without reason).

 

Just about everything from her perspective says that it's a bad plan and she has very little reason to think otherwise. So she plans to stop him if she can.

 

How so? What does she know about how the DO needs to be sealed? On what is she basing herself to say that "Surely Rand can face the Dark One and defeat him and seal him away without taking that risk"? On her fear of the DO? Is it fear that's making her act as she is?

 

Rand knows it, he's apparently trying to use it to his advantage -- I don't see how you don't know it.

 

Rand knows how she'll act (although her opposition itself is not what he wants), but that doesn't mean she's right to act that way. It just means he expect her to. If I expect a stupid person to act stupidly (this has nothing to do with Egwene), and put them in a position where I expect them to do so, it doesn't mean it's right of them to do so. It just means they acted as I predicted they would. Which also makes me a jerk (as I believe you said a bit futher back in the thread) for manipulating them like that, unless I have a good reason to have done it.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Suttree]

As an aside, his actions in the Damona campaign were really not that bad. He went against Bashere's advise true, but he also knew something that Bashere didn't and that is that he had Callandor. And frankly if it wasn't for the completely unpredictable flaw in Callandor, his plan would have worked perfectly, and the Seanchan would have been crushed without the backlash on his own forces Of course that doesn't change the fact that he was acting like a huge arrogant jerk throughout the whole thing, especially towards the Ashaman. Great bit of writing though. LTT was at his best.

 

It is one of my favorite sections in the entire series. Some of RJ's best writing for sure, the LTT commentary is genius. Anyway it was written to show his ego steamrolling out of control and what can happen when he isn't checked by or doesn't listen to the important people around him thinking he can do it all alone. This continued through the later books and culminated in TGS. His actions were pretty bad considering he knew what was going on with the power being all wonky, dismissed the advice of one of the world's best generals and ended up slaughtering his own forces because of these bad decisions. I mean seriously, can you imagine if Egwene did something even remotely similar how much the fanbase would be calling for her head. I don't see how you would think the rumors of his instability and actions here didn't get out.

 

tPoD

Winter winds and winter snows slowed the passage of trade across lands where they did not end it until spring, and for every three pigeons sent by merchants, two fell to hawks or weather, but where ice did not cover the rivers, ships still sailed, and rumor flew faster than lightnings. A thousand rumors, each throwing off a thousand seeds that sprouted and grew in snow and ice as in fertile soil.

 

Afterall, by choosing to oppose Rand, she has caused a conflict, and if she turns out to be wrong, then it looks bad for her and the WT, especially if the nations of the leaders whose she has called to the FoM are attacked. Whether it is fair or not, she will be the one blamed for it.

 

But my point is if she listens at the FoM(if Min has found the answer) and they come to an agreement then there is no conflict and she hasn't opposed him in the slightest.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Suttree

[Maleshub]

When it comes to judging Egwene's reaction to Rand's plan-under construction, I think we should take into account what she didn't do. And I think we should take into account the faith Rand showed into coming into the WT in the first place.

 

- Egwene changed her perception during the meeting from talking to the Dragon (to be feared) to talking to Rand (to be trusted with the fate of the world).

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that. So, Egwene trusts Rand enough to show up in the Field of Merrilor and convince her that his plan will work.

- Rand came to the WT with a premeditated intent to rile up Egwene enough to have her gather what she perceives as opposition in a month's time. Yet, he had enough faith in himself and Egwene that the meeting will not lead to any unexpected negative developments, which was the case.

[randsc]

 

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

 

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

[Maleshub]

- Egwene had Rand shielded and surrounded by hundreds of Aes Sedai. If she wanted to stop him right away, she could have kept him in the WT. She had a strong justification since he announced that he'll break the seals. I don't think A.S. would have objected to that.

 

She doesn't think so. She said so explicitly.

 

She said it so to Silviana, a Red, to justify letting him go. The laws governing the OP in the books state clearly that a circle of 13 maintained by the 13 will shield any male channeler and cannot be broken. Rand's time in Galina's box is another proof. That's how I understand the issue. If it doesn't work that way, I'd like to read more on it.