Sanderson Moments

[Treemaster]

Portions of Sanderson's work in The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight are great. I like all of the Rand scenes in tGS. Perrin is very well done. And as I said above, I like what Sanderson has generally done with all of them female characters, though I still despise Egwene, and Elayne has generally declined from being pleasant -- if a bit cheer-leadery -- early in the series to nearly despicable in ToM. Otber parts I haven't enjoyed, including all of the Mat chapters. And I say that as someone who is generally less intersted in Mat than the other characters. In fairness, I didn't much care for the Tower of Ghenjei episode either, and this is mostly (I understand) Jordan's work.

 

So, I think it is too harsh to say that Brandon is simply a "bad writer."

 

Now, if it were me, I think the last three books should have been structured very differently, possibly including making them more chronological. I hate the fact that Tam is with Rand one moment in ToM, and then back with Perrin in the next. Veins of Gold was probably too important to use as the conclusion to the firstof the last three books. I would have preferred one book of 1500 pages, which could have been accomplished by deleting the Matt and Perrin chapters in The Gathering Storm, and some other unnecessary chapters (much less Gawyn and Elayne, for example). Unfortunately, I understand that it can be very difficult to convince a publisher to publish one book. But I think nearly all of our criticisms derive from splitting AMoL into three books, which has in turn required restructuring the plot in a less than desireable fashion, including by requiring chapters such as the Hinderstap episode. I don't think it's Brandon's fault that this has happened. But if Steve Erikson can publish 1200-page softcover books, it should have been possible to convince Tor to publish a 1500-1600 page hardback book too.

[TheLagomorph]

Hi all, long time lurker here. So first off, thank you all for hours of entertaining reading. Now, what made me react is that I just could not let you compare Sanderson to KJA. This is pretty much what I think about KJA in relation to Dune:

 

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/10/15

 

and KJA is a pure hack.

 

Sanderson's work, especially Elantris, but also Warbreaker and Mistborn far exceed anything KJA could do. I agree/think BS is best in creating a world with rules, like mistborn's magic, Warbreaker's color and souls/spirits, but he can write characters well enough (if somewhat simple perhaps). Sure he has his weak points, but no-one deserves to be put on a level with KJA.

[TheDuchess]

'Bloody ashes' anyone? This curse always jars with me. 'Blood and ashes' sounds right or 'blood and bloody ashes' even.

 

Otherwise I guess I'm just patheticly grateful to get to finish the story.

[Cycotyme]

I do not really look for differences in writing style, I am just too happy that the story will be finished. However there is on recurring thing that Brandon does that drives me NUTS:

“light, but…”

(none of these are direct quotes, just examples of what I am talking about)

Light, but that hurt.

Light, but I cant believe that a forsaken has been in the tower this whole time.

Light, but 20 different characters starting using “light, but” over and over again once Brandon took over…

 

Check the prologue, I read it last week but I remember “light, but…” appearing at least once.

[Terez]

RJ did that quite a bit, actually.

[Cycotyme]

RJ did that quite a bit, actually.

 

Hmmm... after Sanderson did his first WOT book I went back through and re-read the entire series and I don’t remember it bugging me until I got back to Sanderson’s book...

 

I recall RJ had lots of people say "Light, ....." (without the 'but' after it)

[ChaosBorn]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

tGS and ToM are up there with my favourites of the series (tSR, LoC and KOD)

[Suttree]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

tGS and ToM are up there with my favourites of the series (tSR, LoC and KOD)

 

The problem is plot gratification was allowed to carry the narrative. The books don't hold up to subsequent rereads. I can see how you are satisfied with the story and events taking place but their is a fairly significant difference when you look at the quality of writing.

[Sephie913]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the writing at times is rough to say the least. We often see blunt prose and faulty plot work. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

tGS and ToM are up there with my favourites of the series (tSR, LoC and KOD)

 

The problem is plot gratification was allowed to carry the narrative. The books don't hold up to subsequent rereads. I can see how you are satisfied with the story and events taking place but their is a fairly significant difference when you look at the quality of writing.

 

 

Thank you both for summing up what I was going to say quite nicely. TGS in general was a great read IMO, while ToM felt rushed.

 

I won't try to defend Mat's letter, but I don't uderstand peoples' problem with Hinderstap. It provided one of the only slow-burn tension scenes in the entire series. RJ liked to move 0-60 in two seconds, which is great, but I think the suspense building was a nice change of pace(literally and figuratively).

 

I'm just happy they decided to take proper time with AMoL. Is anyone else secretly hoping they release an author's preferred edition of ToM, with a shiny new haircut?

[Maleshub]

Didn't BS admit in his interview with Luckers that he didn't get some characters right in the two books, most notably Mat? And I think that I can add a few Egwene scenes or lines that were just "What?" The only one I'll cite here is her argument with the W.O. that sending their apprentices to study under Sea Folk teachers would allow the Aiel to "overcome their fear of water." It was like hitting the brakes suddenly; and I was thinking "What the heck? That is such a dumb argument!"

 

In any case, there is a difference between appreciating what BS has done with Team Jordan to finish the series and give us the ending we've been waiting for, and literary criticism (amateur level, not professional) and expressing opinion about certain aspects of the content.

[RandA lThor]

Sorry if this has already been said before.

 

"Father," Rand said, resting his hand on Min's back. "This is Min Farshaw. And she's very special to me."

 

SANDERSON!!!!!!!!!!!

 

But he's good besides that.

[Greger]

Lurker long time, first post. I'm not sure if this has been brought to attention, however in LoC (I don't have the exact quote) someone mentions a rumour about a city where people are killing each other. So whatever one thinks about Hinderstrap (I'm not too fond of it either) it does fit the world of WoT IMO.

[ShowMeYourRage]

As for the actual topic...every time I see the word tempest

 

Yes! He does it in Way of Kings as well.

[FarShainMael]

Lurker long time, first post. I'm not sure if this has been brought to attention, however in LoC (I don't have the exact quote) someone mentions a rumour about a city where people are killing each other. So whatever one thinks about Hinderstrap (I'm not too fond of it either) it does fit the world of WoT IMO.

 

It's LoC2, and Taim says it:

 

"I've heard all sorts of rumours since I escaped the Aes Sedai. Monsters leaping out of thin air. Strange beasts. Men talking to animals, and the animals talking back. Aes Sedai going mad like we're supposed to. Whole villages going mad, killing each other. Some could be true."

 

The only thing we haven't seen from that list is AS going mad.....

[Agitel]

Lurker long time, first post. I'm not sure if this has been brought to attention, however in LoC (I don't have the exact quote) someone mentions a rumour about a city where people are killing each other. So whatever one thinks about Hinderstrap (I'm not too fond of it either) it does fit the world of WoT IMO.

 

It's LoC2, and Taim says it:

 

"I've heard all sorts of rumours since I escaped the Aes Sedai. Monsters leaping out of thin air. Strange beasts. Men talking to animals, and the animals talking back. Aes Sedai going mad like we're supposed to. Whole villages going mad, killing each other. Some could be true."

 

The only thing we haven't seen from that list is AS going mad.....

 

I like this. Even if it was an unintentional reference back to that, it makes me smile to be able to tie Hinderstrap in a little better. The writing style through that sequence is definitely noticeably Sanderson, though.

[Luckers]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

[Roxinos]

I have seen a lot of good points raised on both sides. Cadsuane is never even mentioned one single time before book seven.- and shes a legend? Huh? Usually, as I'm discussing in the AMOL Forum, I HATE that kind of thing, yet, Cads is one of my favorite characters. Weird, I know.

 

One who most Aes Sedai haven't seen in years and who most Aes Sedai believe is probably dead. She's a legend in how strong she is, how many men she's captured, and her unorthodox methods in general compared to most Aes Sedai. She's not a legend like Jain Farstrider.

[Suttree]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

 

Yeah I have read some of the interviews and been disappointed at times with the way things seemed to be approached. I guess my biggest question is do you feel as if the extra time spent will help or has Brandon resigned himself to not being able to step up in certain areas? It has been interesting to see how as the initial thrill of the books being finished wears off, readers have been more and more critical. There are significant issues in the areas you mention above. I truly wonder how they will hold up to analysis down the line and what his ultimate legacy with the WoT will be. AMoL will be under a ton of scrutiny and it has to be a home run, RJ deserves no less.

[Orderofolde]

To be honest I think that the people criticizing BS's work on WoT are just clutching at straws, considering the circumstances he's done a brilliant job and has moved the story along nicely without spending 6 books on it.

 

Also I think that we should all remember that without BS the series we all love wouldn't have been completed, or by a potentially lesser author.

 

No one is saying he hasn't done an admirable job under difficult circumstances. The problem is both books were greatly rushed and not given nearly enough time for proper revisions and editing. TGS and ToM as a result suffered greatly and the prose at times is rough with blunt plot work to say the least. Both the author and Team Jordan have flat out admitted this and changed their process as a result. They have said they have to get AMoL right and I commend them for admitting the issues and taking steps to address them. Taking this into account I think AMoL should be some of Brandon's best work.

 

To be perfectly honest, some of my greatest issues with Brandon's work deals speacifically with the 'done an admirable job under the circumstances' concept. By this, I refer to the elements where Brandon being forced to write in another writers world has created difficulties beyond that which a writer would normally face... and my problem is simple. It is NOT that Brandon did not do as good a job as Jordan. I want that clear. It is that he did not try.

 

Brandon has been very clear about this. He and I discussed it directly. He has been on record about it numerous times. The issue is, simply, when Brandon has come upon an element of writing that he was not good at, which Jordan was, he shrugs his shoulders and acknowledges the innevitable--and usually thereafter leaves all elements related to such matters to Team Jordan and the Beta Readers. The Timeline is one such element. The use of Foreshadow is another, as is the poetry of the prose--these are not elements I am criticising Brandon on, these are the elements that Brandon acknowledges that he is not good at. And therefore dismissed.

 

That is my problem. When it comes to elements that Brandon is not good at or not interested in, then he does not bother with them. It is not a hubris in him, so far as I can tell. Rather it seems to be a sense of resignation. The sense of 'I can't do this well, so I won't bother trying at all'.

 

With this does he shrug of the timeline issues. With this does he set aside the clunky prose. So my issue with Sanderson Moments is not so much in what happens, as in what doesn't. The negative space is telling--and again, to be clear, this is not that he did not do as good a job as 'Jordan' could have--it's that he didn't do as good a job as 'Brandon' could have.

If they wanted the same voice as RJ they could have hired a ghost writer as Harriet and Team Jordan originally said. But Harriet Chose Brandon, someone who was virtually unknown. WOT fan base launched Brandon's career into the majors. Heck, I like his books too. And there were massive communications problems between Team Jordan on the last book, stuff went missing, and it was a madhouse trying to get the final drafts done in chunks. I think that sometimes we all forget that Brandon pretty much was hired to do 1 book...AMOL. Then it was split because it was so massive a project, we had TGS, TOM, and now AMOL. He's had to stretch RJ's scenes, finish many arcs, and add in his own ideas as some of the major notes weren't even complete (how and where Asmo died). Truth of it is, all we know is that Graendal is "responsible" not that she actually killed him. Same way she is responsible for Halima-gar getting killed by Rand.

 

So Brandon is having to take the entire series and bring it to a close trying to piece together recordings, writing, notes, his personal reading of the series. It's not going to be perfect. I just don't see why people are arguing the small points. We've already seen scenes that RJ did that Brandon was accused of doing because things were a little "off" in them. These were earlier drafts that RJ had done, therefore they weren't revised and polished as much. A lot of what RJ did was inserted untouched out of respect. If it is a little off or not quite to the tone we were used to, RJ was going through a lot when he wrote it all. I have a feeling that AMOL will be the best book of the series, starting off strong with TEoTW and ending spectacularly. I feel that Brandon has grown into the role enough to really pull it off with the ending that RJ left.

[Maleshub]

If they wanted the same voice as RJ they could have hired a ghost writer as Harriet and Team Jordan originally said. But Harriet Chose Brandon, someone who was virtually unknown. WOT fan base launched Brandon's career into the majors. Heck, I like his books too. And there were massive communications problems between Team Jordan on the last book, stuff went missing, and it was a madhouse trying to get the final drafts done in chunks. I think that sometimes we all forget that Brandon pretty much was hired to do 1 book...AMOL. Then it was split because it was so massive a project, we had TGS, TOM, and now AMOL. He's had to stretch RJ's scenes, finish many arcs, and add in his own ideas as some of the major notes weren't even complete (how and where Asmo died). Truth of it is, all we know is that Graendal is "responsible" not that she actually killed him. Same way she is responsible for Halima-gar getting killed by Rand.

 

So Brandon is having to take the entire series and bring it to a close trying to piece together recordings, writing, notes, his personal reading of the series. It's not going to be perfect. I just don't see why people are arguing the small points. We've already seen scenes that RJ did that Brandon was accused of doing because things were a little "off" in them. These were earlier drafts that RJ had done, therefore they weren't revised and polished as much. A lot of what RJ did was inserted untouched out of respect. If it is a little off or not quite to the tone we were used to, RJ was going through a lot when he wrote it all. I have a feeling that AMOL will be the best book of the series, starting off strong with TEoTW and ending spectacularly. I feel that Brandon has grown into the role enough to really pull it off with the ending that RJ left.

 

I would suspect that Brandon isn't doing this for free; and I would suspect that his writing career improved after his name was linked to Jordan's. So the arguments Luckers has made are pretty valid in that he's gained so much that a little more effort would have probably made his writing so much better.

 

One thing that may have been overlooked is that any fan who started reading WoT when it first came out is probably in his 30's or 40's right now. So, the fan base isn't just the very young who love the story more than the style. And the fans have read and reread the series tens of millions of times collectively. So, there is a very high degree of scrutiny involved. And Brandon knows that he'll be under that much scrutiny. It is part of WoT.

[Suttree]

If they wanted the same voice as RJ they could have hired a ghost writer as Harriet and Team Jordan originally said.

 

Which has zero to do with the critical analysis Luckers gave of BS's writing.

 

He's had to stretch RJ's scenes, finish many arcs, and add in his own ideas as some of the major notes weren't even complete (how and where Asmo died). Truth of it is, all we know is that Graendal is "responsible" not that she actually killed him. Same way she is responsible for Halima-gar getting killed by Rand.

 

I get your overall points but the one relating to Graendal and Asmo is wrong. The answer was in the notes and Brandon has said the glossary was meant to explicitly answer the question. It's just the fan base picking apart the wording.

 

So Brandon is having to take the entire series and bring it to a close trying to piece together recordings, writing, notes, his personal reading of the series. It's not going to be perfect. I just don't see why people are arguing the small points.

 

The problem is TGS and ToM were not even close to perfect...the quality bordered on poor at times. The issues raised about timeline, prose and foreshadowing are far from small points. The most troubling thing as Lucker's noted above is Brandon seems resigned to not giving a huge effort in those areas. I fervently hope the extra time helps, as Team Jordan has said, they need to get AMoL "right".

[TristanWebb]

A major problem with the timeline has to do with the splitting and wanting to give a decent ending to tGS. If you moved all of the chapters that are supposed to be before VoG into their proper places (when that it known) and then split the books, VoG would be about a third of the way though ToM. Sanderson -can- be good at foreshadowing as well, the ending of the mistweaver trilogy was extremely subtle IMO. I would love to see a definitive version of the last 3 books, with the timeline straightened out not jumbled up.

[FarShainMael]

So would I, but it would be a project and a half!

[yoniy0]

They wouldn't make for good books at all. The theme of each book has to have a distinct feel to it, and the pace has to be balanced, the suspension built appropriately. To have a book of Aviendha's mooning after Rand, Mat's frustration at Elayne's ignorance of him as he ships his AS to TV, Perrin's mucking through the mud or postponing his trial and Rand's growing madder, all the while Egwene has time to just about crack a nut or two, would be so very frustrating.

 

So, yes, it's a problem. I think that, with trimming, they would've made two decent books, that a good author (and Brandon is one, for all of his challenges) could make work.

 

PS

Partly, this problem is a legacy from RJ. The timelines were already pretty scrambled up at the end of KoD.

 

PPS

Brandon does foreshadowing in Mistborn, that's true, but it's not as subtle. He's very good at devising plot twists, and I love his books for that. But that's not the same as having everything feel just right, because somewhere deep inside you always knew it had to be as it is.

[TristanWebb]

Well, a corrected timeline book wouldn't be for people reading the books for the first time, more like for long time fans rereading the series from beginning to end. I would be happy with someone posting a chaperized corrected timeline, but that is really just so I don't have to do the work myself :P