Timline question

[bsmnt23]

I dont want to fault Sanderson on his storytelling here, but lets face it; Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight both had a lot of glaring timeline issues. I dont know if the story is better advanced by the broken continuity or what the intent is, but is there any attmept to take the chapters out and re-arrange them to be in a streat timeline? I mean, Perrin is taking care of his Aiel problems and Tam is there, then we cut to Rand in Tear and Tam is there, and then BACK to Perrin a book later to see Tam going off to Tear to see Rand... Personaly I'd like to see what changes to the flow of the naration it would make to take everything and put it in order.

[Bromo Sapien]

They were concurrent, like A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. I didn't see it as that big an issue especially considering how Perrin's storyline definitely wouldn't have fit next to Rand's unless Brandon went with RJ's original plan of publishing one last book lasting 3000+ pages. But then again, I place tGS with Tracy Jordan as one of my favorite books of the series, so take it for what it's worth.

[bsmnt23]

They were concurrent, like A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons. I didn't see it as that big an issue especially considering how Perrin's storyline definitely wouldn't have fit next to Rand's unless Brandon went with RJ's original plan of publishing one last book lasting 3000+ pages. But then again, I place tGS with Tracy Jordan as one of my favorite books of the series, so take it for what it's worth.

 

 

Not talking about which book comes after the other, that much is obvious, I'm talking about the content of the chapters which are obviously out sync.

[Skeeve the Great]

I guess you must not see "Pulp fiction" then. It would spin your head clean off with all those "storylines" mixed up.

 

</sarcasm>

[LeeM.Erickson]

I place tGS with Tracy Jordan as one of my favorite books of the series, so take it for what it's worth.

 

I make that same joke in my head every time I refer to The Gathering Storm as TGS

 

The timeline thing doesn't bother me, though. It's a little more overt, but it's not like it's the first time it's ever happened in the series. There's the weird scarf related issues in The Eye of the World, for one. The prologue of A Crown of Swords shows the battle of Dumai's Wells from Sevanna's perspective. A lot of the early parts of CoT show what other people were doing before and up to the Cleansing.

[bsmnt23]

I thought only stoner D-Bags still referenced Pulp Fiction. Here's the thing; Pulp Fiction is a crappy movie that tries to pull itself up from crappy movie status to art-house status by putting the diferent chapters in a choppy order. Dont know, dont care if was intentional or it just sounded better when Tarrintino was stoned one night. Irrelvant. The WoT is not a crappy Tarrintino movie (...trying really really hard to get that immage out of my head) the WoT has a liniar timeline becasue it's High Fantasy (not stupid stoner fantasy) and as such it has a liniar storyline, which is broken in the last two books. It's actualy broken quite a bit with morron Perrin giving us flashes of Rand in places where he hasnt been in chapters. Is it lazy editing, and would it be better to shuffle the cards, so to speak, to put everything in order?

[Luckers]

Well, yes, there are timline issues... but frankly I think they're Tim's fault, not Brandon's.

 

Heh. Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Nah the timelines suck. The vibe I get is that Brandon doesn't think he's good at doing timelines, so he doesn't bother worrying about it when writing, and then they try to make it work in the editing stage.

 

Doesn't work too well.

[Sephie913]

I thought only stoner D-Bags still referenced Pulp Fiction. Here's the thing; Pulp Fiction is a crappy movie that tries to pull itself up from crappy movie status to art-house status by putting the diferent chapters in a choppy order. Dont know, dont care if was intentional or it just sounded better when Tarrintino was stoned one night. Irrelvant. The WoT is not a crappy Tarrintino movie (...trying really really hard to get that immage out of my head) the WoT has a liniar timeline becasue it's High Fantasy (not stupid stoner fantasy) and as such it has a liniar storyline, which is broken in the last two books. It's actualy broken quite a bit with morron Perrin giving us flashes of Rand in places where he hasnt been in chapters. Is it lazy editing, and would it be better to shuffle the cards, so to speak, to put everything in order?

 

 

Let's set aside for the moment whether Pulp Fiction is a good movie. That's a polarizing topic, and not the point anyway. Though the picture of Rand bursting through the door, holding the Dragon Scepter like a gun, to QT's speghetti-western themes=PRICELESS. :)

 

But for ANYONE to say that WoT has been using entirely linear timelines makes me think they've missed a good third of the series. I'm sure there are books in the series that read front-to-back as far as timelines go, but EotW, TSR, FoH, CoT-- all have non-linear timelines. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

Brandon has said more than once that this arrangement ws not optimal, but it was necessary in order to make TGS move satisfyingly and end with a bang. These decisions were not made blindly, but after a lot of thought. And non-linear timelines is no stranger to most WoT fans.

 

Though it would have been easier to keep track of had they included comic-esque "Meanwhile, on the outskirts of Ebou Dar..." :)

[Terez]

My problem was less the non-linear aspect (though I think there were some fixes that would have helped a great deal to smooth it over) but more the internal contradictions that make it impossible to figure out how many days pass between any two given events most of the time.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Me too. I also think that Brandon needlessly exposed us to contradictions--as in, situations in which the characters could have easily simply not mentioned or referenced a thing, but did so, leaving the reader no choice but face the contradiction.

[michellem]

The timeline has been crooked almost the entire series. In PoD, when Egwene is meeting with the Andorans and Murandians, they are refering to rumors of a batte with sisters involved recently not far from there(Dumais Wells). The wording makes it seem not too far ago, maybe a week or so, but in reality it happened two books ago. And yes, ACOS is very short when it comes to time covered, but still.

 

I feel that in WoT the timeline is eternally crooked, you can never be 100% sure what one character is experiencing compared to where the others are. And I think that is one of the things that are brilliant in the storytelling, a think that keeps the readers on their toes. To me, the example in the first post is brilliant. When you switch back to Tam leaving, I at least think "Poor guy, you have no idea what you are about to step into". It drives the scene with Tam and Rand even harder into place for me at least. As far as I remember, Tam seems like he is really looking forward to seeing his son again; it makes me imagine how sad and distressed he is after the meeting all the more when I know how the outcome will be before he leaves. Sorry if that ended up as a really rambled up sentence.

[Agitel]

The timeline has been crooked almost the entire series. In PoD, when Egwene is meeting with the Andorans and Murandians, they are refering to rumors of a batte with sisters involved recently not far from there(Dumais Wells). The wording makes it seem not too far ago, maybe a week or so, but in reality it happened two books ago. And yes, ACOS is very short when it comes to time covered, but still.

 

I feel that in WoT the timeline is eternally crooked, you can never be 100% sure what one character is experiencing compared to where the others are. And I think that is one of the things that are brilliant in the storytelling, a think that keeps the readers on their toes. To me, the example in the first post is brilliant. When you switch back to Tam leaving, I at least think "Poor guy, you have no idea what you are about to step into". It drives the scene with Tam and Rand even harder into place for me at least. As far as I remember, Tam seems like he is really looking forward to seeing his son again; it makes me imagine how sad and distressed he is after the meeting all the more when I know how the outcome will be before he leaves. Sorry if that ended up as a really rambled up sentence.

 

As a fan of the Wheel of Time and Sanderson, the timeline hopping in ToM was just awkward. It may have been the best way to handle the situation Sanderson was given, but it was awkward. I still can't believe Sanderson didn't include a comment about it in the front of the book.

[michellem]

*shrugs* I don't know, everyone reacts in different ways. It didn't bother me, but then again, I am rarely bothered by things like that; if it isn't glaringly wrong and messed up the story, I don't really care. I think it is more important that someone is able to tell a story, then how they tell it. Look at J.K. Rowling; the 3 first HP books is brilliant when it comes to the story, but the technical writing part has never been her strongest side She got better at that later on though. And yet, who cares? Not me at least :) Im in it to be transported to another time and another place, not to dissect how it is written.

[Agitel]

*shrugs* I don't know, everyone reacts in different ways. It didn't bother me, but then again, I am rarely bothered by things like that; if it isn't glaringly wrong and messed up the story, I don't really care. I think it is more important that someone is able to tell a story, then how they tell it. Look at J.K. Rowling; the 3 first HP books is brilliant when it comes to the story, but the technical writing part has never been her strongest side She got better at that later on though. And yet, who cares? Not me at least :) Im in it to be transported to another time and another place, not to dissect how it is written.

 

I think the primary issue would be Tam in ToM. Even understanding what's going on, it's immersion-breaking for many people. It's not simply a reference. I'm not talking about technical details.

[Pilz]

I kinda liked having 2 stories on different timelines. Getting Perrin's and the wolves version of 'veins of gold' a book later was cool and would have lost something if they were right together.

[LeeM.Erickson]

 

 

Not talking about which book comes after the other, that much is obvious, I'm talking about the content of the chapters which are obviously out sync.

 

Dunno if you read GRRM, but the point he was trying to make is the timelines in A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons overlap similar to TGS (with Tracy Jordan) and ToM. In the way that certain characters from the second book have to "play catch up" to events that took place in the preceding one.

[Agitel]

 

 

Not talking about which book comes after the other, that much is obvious, I'm talking about the content of the chapters which are obviously out sync.

 

Dunno if you read GRRM, but the point he was trying to make is the timelines in A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons overlap similar to TGS (with Tracy Jordan) and ToM. In the way that certain characters from the second book have to "play catch up" to events that took place in the preceding one.

 

I have to say that's a different circumstance, though. In ADwD, GRRM didn't jump around between events after AFfC and events concurrent with AFfC from chapter to chapter. Dance ran parallel with Feast and then beyond. The chapters of that particular book were in chronological order, even if parts were parallel with a different book. It would be more comparable if Sanderson kept all the chapters of ToM in chronological order; that is, if he had covered all of Perrin/Mat's/Elayne's chapters for the first third or half of the book and brought us up to speed and then continued on from there, only reintroducing Rand and Egwene POVs after the others had been caught up. No jumping back and forth between two points in time every few chapters.

 

Would that have been the best choice? I don't know. I'm not trying to say it would be. But what was done in ToM was different than doubling back and playing catch up but still keeping everything in a particular book in chronological order.

[Skeeve the Great]

I kinda liked having 2 stories on different timelines. Getting Perrin's and the wolves version of 'veins of gold' a book later was cool and would have lost something if they were right together.

 

This.

 

And yes, reading "Veins of Gold" from Perrin's POV was awesome.

 

I liked different timelines very much, actually. Knowing before hand, that these books were supposed to be one book, I figured that there bound to be some overlappings in timeline. And I would rather enjoy reading fully developed storyline knowing that timelines will eventually meet.

 

Trick with Tam was briliant. I don't understand why people complain too much. It was very obvious from the beginning - Tam appears at the end of tGS in Rand's timeline and in the ToM we go back to Perrin's timeline where Tam is also present.

 

Frankly, I don't want books written with subtitles "Three months ago..." or "Two hours earlier..." as they do it in the movies.

[Durinax]

I haveto say perrins VoG pov was better than rands. I absolutely hated the "all we need is love" bit.

[AltonJakeStorey]

Brandon Sanderson adressed this in his blog. Things happened quicker with Perrin then they did with others, because of this Perrin's timeline moved FAR slower then the others. He did the best he could with what he was given. STOP assuming that he was careless, or anything like that. Other then style differences between the authors and editing problems because of the limited time allowed, most problems I hear people complaining about aren't really his fault. I've heard people complaining about how BS butchered scene X, when it has been reveled that RJ wrote that scene. BS hasn't done these books the way RJ would (nobody COULD do it the way he would), but he has done a VERY good job.

[Agitel]

I like how people seem to assume my opinion on the awkward timeline in ToM means I am criticizing Sanderson or that I didn't like the book. Neither of those are true. I was a fan of the book, and I've read most of Sanderson's published works (much to my enjoyment). That doesn't mean I can't find a narrative device (even if it was done completely out of necessity) awkward or have to approve of every little detail. I had no confusion over the timeline while reading, I just found it awkward and it broke the immersion I had in the books. And again, it's not the idea of an overlapping timeline between tGS and ToM, it's the jumping back and forth in ToM alone that was awkward. I wouldn't want subtitles each chapter, I would just think it would have been appropriate for Sanderson to include a note in the front of the book.

 

Also, separate opinion note: Rand's POV was way better than Perrin's for VoG. Perrin's POV didn't do much for me or seem to add anything to the narrative.

[JayneEyre]

OK, I'm 630 pages into ToM and I'm thoroughly confused by every mention of Tam. I'm inferring from the above that there's something awkward about the timeline. From simply reading it the book as is, there's nothing in the actual text that's giving me the impression of back and forth in time. To me the entire book is reading like it's all happening at the same time, the sole problem for me comes from Tam being in two places at once and knowing something in tGS that the characters don't know yet (Morgase) and telling Rand. Now, the characters don't find that out until the middle of ToM, and then Tam is in Perrin's camp AND Two Rivers at the same time, But I can find no other signs that the story sections are not happening concurrently. I am an editor, so this part is driving me insane. I have been hung up on this conundrum for 630 pages of ToM and the last roughly quarter of tGS and I find it maddening. 

[BFG]

Possible spoilers for ToM (I can't remember when this happens, but I think about half-way to 2/3 of the way through 

 

 

 

I can't remember the specific details of where Tam is and when, but it becomes obvious that Perrin has been playing catch-up when he sees Rands VoG.  After this he meets with Mat, so that puts Mat roughly(!) in time.  Avi also experiences VoG (sort of) while going through Rhuidean - when the clouds clear above her which helps put her timeline roughly in place as well), I think one reason that Egs storyline is intertwined with perrins (happening earlier) is the similarities in their position of trying to consolidate their Power and the way they're being tested - Eg is being challenged by the Tower AS having been technically accepted as Amrylin, Perrin is being tested by the WC...  I may be wrong about this.

 

 

[JayneEyre]

Basically, as an editor, I caught what appeared to be a mistake that bothered me for the approximate 800 pages it too for them to clarify the situation. To me, one who notices details for a living, the state of it being a sort of flashback/slight time delay was NOT apparent. Personally, I consider this to be poor writing.

[BFG]

I'm not arguing that it was well done, just that at a point about half - two thirds of the way through it becomes evident that Perrins timeline is/was quite behind.  To be honest, when Towers came out I was super-busy and barely had time to read, let alone reread, so I think it's the only book in the series that was released (while I was reading) that I didn't do a reread for.  As such, I didn't notice the Tam thing until later.  The Avi thing took me a lot longer to figure out.  GRRMs solution (with Feast and Dragons), while not ideal at least keeps the chronolgy straight, and I think their's an authors note in both explaining that it only tells the story for half the cast...