rand's insanity wasn't the taint

[kght22]

we still don't know exactly where the light in rands head came from, i happen to like the idea that the eye has been protecting him.

 

we know from semi that she was aware of the problem rand had with lews therin in his head, and had dealt with or heard of patients with this problem before, that was BEFORE the dark one's taint. and she called it insanity.

 

i think that this is the insanity that we saw in rand, that it was never the insanity of the taint, but instead the insanity of two personalities at conflict causing decisions to escalate to insane choices.

 

rj said rand was insane, but he didn't say it was because of the taint (at least i haven't seen a quote to that effect)

[Suttree]

Have to keep this on mind...

 

 

Interview: Oct 27th, 2009

BYU: TGS Midnight Release - Matt Hatch preliminary report (Paraphrased)

Matt Hatch

Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon Sanderson

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

[Naked~Frog]

Think about Mat. When he first came through the gateway he heard thoughts and voices that were not his. Then he gave in and the memories of his past life became a part of him. The same thing is happening with Rand but it took him longer to give in and accept it, Mat also went slightly crazy, however. Therefore, the taint is not the only cause.

 

It has something to do with the pattern. Maybe even something to do with being specially tied to it... also, Rand also went through the gateway...

 

But the Dark One has powers beyond the grave. So it could be his touch that's bending the pattern in a way that allows them to talk with themselves from past lives.

 

Or it could be the pattern in general. Notice that it's common for men to hear their old voices AND for women to suddenly remember lost weaves. Something about magic and the pattern...

 

Cadsuane also knew about the voices.

 

It's possible that Semirhage learned about the voice by talking to any number of forsaken who have talked to Lew Therin through Rand. Such as Lanfear.

 

Sanderson saying that the taint had an influence makes me lean towards the theory of the Dark One reaching beyond the grave to attack tainted men psychologically with their past lives.

 

Mat then, could have gotten his memories a bit differently through the gateway... though I can't help but sense a connection.

 

Or maybe humans have something like wolves do but don't notice it? I thought it was interesting that Mat and Rand both end up with the memories of their past lives, and Perrin ended up with access to thousands of years worth of collected memories from the wolves.

[Suttree]

Think about Mat. When he first came through the gateway he heard thoughts and voices that were not his. Then he gave in and the memories of his past life became a part of him. The same thing is happening with Rand but it took him longer to give in and accept it, Mat also went slightly crazy, however. Therefore, the taint is not the only cause.

 

There is no connection between the memories Mat got from the Finns and what Rand has. Mat didn't give in to anything, he specifically asked for them and the wish was granted.

 

TSR Ch. 24

I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer—!"

"Done," one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.

[Naked~Frog]

Yes, but he wanted his own memories back not ones from his past life.

 

And AFTER he left, and once the voices and thoughts actually STARTED he complained frequently throughout his narration about other mens thoughts in his head. And other mens memories in his head. He was especially uncomfortable about other men's bedroom memories.

 

Eventually he gives in and he no longer thinks about them as someone elses. They are his from way back when as opposed to some random dudes thoughts in his head.

[Suttree]

Yes, but he wanted his own memories back not ones from his past life.

 

And AFTER he left, and once the voices and thoughts actually STARTED he complained frequently throughout his narration about other mens thoughts in his head. And other mens memories in his head. He was especially uncomfortable about other men's bedroom memories.

 

Eventually he gives in and he no longer thinks about them as someone elses. They are his from way back when as opposed to some random dudes thoughts in his head.

 

One thing we know about the Finns is you have to be very careful with how you phrase wishes. He never specified that he wanted "his own memories". He just asked for them to be filled. There is a huge difference. RJ was very clear on this.

 

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

[Naked~Frog]

Yeah, I know that. But I'm saying that Mat didn't mean to ask for them back and I already mentioned in my first post that he didn't get them through the taint. I mentioned the "gateway" which is what he normally refers to the ter'angreal he went through as.

[Orderofolde]

Yes, but he wanted his own memories back not ones from his past life.

 

And AFTER he left, and once the voices and thoughts actually STARTED he complained frequently throughout his narration about other mens thoughts in his head. And other mens memories in his head. He was especially uncomfortable about other men's bedroom memories.

 

Eventually he gives in and he no longer thinks about them as someone elses. They are his from way back when as opposed to some random dudes thoughts in his head.

 

One thing we know about the Finns is you have to be very careful with how you phrase wishes. He never specified that he wanted "his own memories". He just asked for them to be filled. There is a huge difference. RJ was very clear on this.

 

RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.

I always thought that the memories were from his past times being spun out. There never has been anything that I noticed in all his memories of two men from the same time period. And the Finns call him "Son of Battles" so obviously all the lives being tied to soldiers, lords leading men and commanding kind of fit that too. RJ was too clever for his own good sometimes, to the point fans doubt a few things he said. As he never said these were not Mat's former memories, just not those of his "ancestors" leaves it open unless there is something in his notes. Blood may be blood but the souls of the men are given by the pattern, spun out again and again and do not hold to bloodlines.

[Byzantine279]

Rand going insane wasn't entirely caused by the taint. The situation he was in was insane enough to drive virtually anyone somewhat nuts, the taint, the voice in his head, etc, all just helped to make the situation worse.

[Naked~Frog]

That's a good point. He was under a lot of pressure and people were trying to kill him... he had to kill other people, he's killed women and created that list...

[Suttree]

I always thought that the memories were from his past times being spun out. There never has been anything that I noticed in all his memories of two men from the same time period. And the Finns call him "Son of Battles" so obviously all the lives being tied to soldiers, lords leading men and commanding kind of fit that too. RJ was too clever for his own good sometimes, to the point fans doubt a few things he said. As he never said these were not Mat's former memories, just not those of his "ancestors" leaves it open unless there is something in his notes. Blood may be blood but the souls of the men are given by the pattern, spun out again and again and do not hold to bloodlines.

 

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

 

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

[Orderofolde]

Wow, I've not seen that one before, but I've seen the other quote often. Hmm...nope, I like it better thinking that these are his past lives especially since he remembers being a lord and how he hates being associated with a lord. There's also the bit of the memories that he gained far outstripping in volume the short time period he has his holes from the dagger. One of the nice things about books, is that it's what it is in your imagination unless it's boldly spelled out in books. If it wasn't a possibility we'd never have the question arise in the first place.

[Beniare2]

Wasnt that boldly spelled out by the Author which is as good as being spelled out in the book?

[spoke]

Wow, I've not seen that one before, but I've seen the other quote often. Hmm...nope, I like it better thinking that these are his past lives especially since he remembers being a lord and how he hates being associated with a lord. There's also the bit of the memories that he gained far outstripping in volume the short time period he has his holes from the dagger. One of the nice things about books, is that it's what it is in your imagination unless it's boldly spelled out in books. If it wasn't a possibility we'd never have the question arise in the first place.

 

Then you are wrong. He specifically mentions that the memories overlap, some from men living at the same time. All of them date to times from the Trolloc Wars up until the time of Arther Hawking. The only memory that we can claim that came from one of his past lives was that of the battle at Aemon's field (it appears while he was waking up after being healed by the Aes Sedai, (well before going to Rhidean).

[Kahsm]

Even I wouldn't argue that Mat's memories are past lives, they're not. And if Suttree and I agree -- you may want to give it up.

 

But I will remind people of this quote re: the taint.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid—I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I'd been told that "Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad," but I didn't accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand's head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he'd promised: "No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he's seeing part of his past life, but he's going insane. It's the immense pressure that's doing this." In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it's hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

 

Not a single mention of the taint, and it specifically states that it's the immense pressure that caused Rand's insanity. The quote reminisces about the REALLY old days when we thought the voice was a real LTT in Rand's head, but we've known that's not true for a long time. Rand is nuts in the way lots of people with high-pressure jobs go nuts, exacerbated by having foreign memories floating around his head.

[kght22]

i love that i managed to make a thread that spurred some pretty intense discussion. i still think that the voice in rand's head (ltt) is pretty much independent of the taint (semi being an expert in mental illness being very aware of the issue, likely before the do's counter stroke makes me think that) and happen to think that the voice combined with the stress, and of course the power over people, is what drove him over the cliff.

 

and i still like the idea that the eye is where the light in his head that nyn found came from, to me it just has to have a source, and destroying the choden kal doesn't seem like it would be that source. the eye was made for the dragon, i think there had to be something there that was more than just a pure well of the one power. i think that light has almost always been there, but nyn only recently learned enough to see it.

 

but anyway fun discussion.

[mogi67]

Rand going insane wasn't entirely caused by the taint. The situation he was in was insane enough to drive virtually anyone somewhat nuts, the taint, the voice in his head, etc, all just helped to make the situation worse.

Definitely. I wouldn't really call Rand insane. He was paranoid, certainly, and displayed signs of PTSD. He would suppress his emotions, experience numbness, detachment. We seem him obviously depressed, like after he had that argument with perrin he locked himself in his rooms for a number of days, refused to see anyone or even eat. I think the dude was just under too much pressure and couldn't cope healthily.

[bobarose]

lets see he has three women,twins on the way,has lost a appendage,could talk to himself three thousand years ago,

has godlike powers,is ruling half the known earth,and is about to let the shadow free .that little bit of light in his head

is probaly where he goes to cry.

[Mr Ares]

Not a single mention of the taint, and it specifically states that it's the immense pressure that caused Rand's insanity.

The quote Suttree posted earlier in the thread specifically mentioned that the taint was influential. It is only by selectively reading quotes that one can conclude that the taint was not a contributory factor to Rand's madness.

 

i still think that the voice in rand's head (ltt) is pretty much independent of the taint (semi being an expert in mental illness being very aware of the issue, likely before the do's counter stroke makes me think that) and happen to think that the voice combined with the stress, and of course the power over people, is what drove him over the cliff.

Semi was not an expert in mental illness - she specifically references Graendal as such. However, anyone from the AoL being aware of this form of madness says nothing about it being caused by the taint. The taint is more a destabilising effect on the mind, a catalyst to madness, and the forms of madness it creates are all types that could occur without. Without the taint, Rand would still have been under a lot of stress, but might have been able to cope. With it, he is pushed over the edge, and LTT's memories start bleeding though. We have every reason to believe the taint to be a contributory factor in Rand's mental state.

[Suttree]

Not a single mention of the taint, and it specifically states that it's the immense pressure that caused Rand's insanity.

The quote Suttree posted earlier in the thread specifically mentioned that the taint was influential. It is only by selectively reading quotes that one can conclude that the taint was not a contributory factor to Rand's madness.

 

That seems to be a favorite pass time for some...

[Kahsm]

Not a single mention of the taint, and it specifically states that it's the immense pressure that caused Rand's insanity.

The quote Suttree posted earlier in the thread specifically mentioned that the taint was influential. It is only by selectively reading quotes that one can conclude that the taint was not a contributory factor to Rand's madness.

 

That seems to be a favorite pass time for some...

 

I believe that quote said the taint was influential in the voice, not the insanity. The two are not one in the same. I said the voice (or personality) was a consequence of the memories, which could be a product of, or helped along by, the taint. All Rand's emo-ness that is often attributed to the taint is caused by the pressure, as Brandon clearly says. That fits both quotes just fine. Your position doesn't work with the one I posted. So it's you who's picking and choosing.

[Suttree]

Not a single mention of the taint, and it specifically states that it's the immense pressure that caused Rand's insanity.

The quote Suttree posted earlier in the thread specifically mentioned that the taint was influential. It is only by selectively reading quotes that one can conclude that the taint was not a contributory factor to Rand's madness.

 

That seems to be a favorite pass time for some...

 

I believe that quote said the taint was influential in the voice, not the insanity. The two are not one in the same. I said the voice (or personality) was a consequence of the memories, which could be a product of, or helped along by, the taint. All Rand's emo-ness that is often attributed to the taint is caused by the pressure, as Brandon clearly says. That fits both quotes just fine. Your position doesn't work with the one I posted. So it's you who's picking and choosing.

 

and it takes a very selective reading to come to that conclusion. You can not separate the voice from the insanity. Ares has the right of it, that is readily apparent.

 

Why not address the actual points he made if you don't agree?

[Taryn]

You two need to take a chill pill. BOTH of you.

 

Seriously, I get that you don't necessarily agree with each other, but to keep making inflamatory comments to/about each other, while others are trying to have a nice and conducive discussion is just not cool. I know I'm not Luckers, and have no power here, but sheesh.

[Suttree]

You two need to take a chill pill. BOTH of you.

 

Seriously, I get that you don't necessarily agree with each other, but to keep making inflamatory comments to/about each other, while others are trying to have a nice and conducive discussion is just not cool. I know I'm not Luckers, and have no power here, but sheesh.

 

So I can't agree with Mr Ares posts? In addition why skip over where I attempted to push it back on track?

 

 

Why not address the actual points he made if you don't agree?

[Taryn]

Look, all I'm asking for is an 'agree to disagree' state without accusations, and 'rude' commentary. Statements such as, "That seems to be a favorite past time for some...", "So it's you who's picking and choosing," and accusing someone of selective reading is kinda spiteful and unfortunate.

 

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