Should This Cadsuane Quote Ease Fears Over Avi's Rhuidan Peek?

[The Fisher King]

There is a lot of (understandable) worry about what Avi saw in her trip through the ''Way Forward Machine'' in Book 13. ... My quote actually comes from Book 12, Chapter 44 'Scents Unknown' when Corele Sedai grows overconfident about Team Light's chances in The Last Battle. The basis for her stance is Min's visions. Cadsuane Sedai brings Corele up short with this point that I feel is excellent:

 

''What this child sees are weavings in the pattern from a time still distant - but if the Dark One wins he will destroy the Pattern entirely. This is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds for other prophecies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means certain.''

 

Doesn't this apply to Avi's visions in Rhuidan as well? Any reason why it shouldn't?

 

When I caught this on a TGS reread, I have to be honest: I exhaled a BIG sigh of relief regarding what Avi saw.

 

 

Fish

[Sunrise Lord]

It sounds to me like she's saying that other prophecies and Foretellings would be rendered moot if the DO won. But, RJ foreshadowed like crazy, so it could be possible.

[David Selig]

Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how this eases our fears. Unless you prefer the Dark One winning and destroying to the Seanchan dominance

[MasterAblar]

As bad as Aviendha's vision is, it's better than the DO winning.

[The Fisher King]

My contention is that if ONE thing can alter a ''definite'' future the so can something else.

 

 

Fish

[Eht Slat Meit]

My contention is that if ONE thing can alter a ''definite'' future the so can something else.

 

If all Foretellings, Visions, Dreams, and Rhuidean Walks are simply varied means of glimpsing pieces of the Pattern, then I think you would be right.

[The Fisher King]

My contention is that if ONE thing can alter a ''definite'' future the so can something else.

 

If all Foretellings, Visions, Dreams, and Rhuidean Walks are simply varied means of glimpsing pieces of the Pattern, then I think you would be right.

 

Well, it will sure be fun to find out! :)

 

I have never understood where the fanbase got the idea that every single thing seen in Rhuidan or through the Doorways meant that those visions were LOCKED IN STONE. Too many variables.

 

I can certainly see the potential for tough times for the Aiel Post-Last Battle, but I can also see plenty of ways their future could be very good, too.

 

 

Fish

[Mulk]

Here is how I view it.

 

In the backwards trip through the pillar ter'angreal, the Aiel learned something they needed to know about their past and where they came from; why they don't use swords, how they wound up where they are, what their sin was and all of that. In the forward trip, I believe she was being shown where the Aiel were headed if they did not change - what they need to know about the future in order to become who they need to be to survive.

 

Basically, the ter'angreal teaches uncomfortable truths about you and your people. Lack of acceptance of what they saw killed Aiel, historically. We saw that with Muradin. Lack of acceptance of this new truth will likewise kill them - all of them, save a few stragglers.

[mandersen]

My contention is that if ONE thing can alter a ''definite'' future the so can something else.

 

 

Fish

 

The DO winning is the only thing that can alter a "definite" future, because if he wins he'll destroy the pattern, which is where viewings and fortellings get their info. But we don't know that the glass columns are definite.

 

Here is how I view it.

 

In the backwards trip through the pillar ter'angreal, the Aiel learned something they needed to know about their past and where they came from; why they don't use swords, how they wound up where they are, what their sin was and all of that. In the forward trip, I believe she was being shown where the Aiel were headed if they did not change - what they need to know about the future in order to become who they need to be to survive.

 

Basically, the ter'angreal teaches uncomfortable truths about you and your people. Lack of acceptance of what they saw killed Aiel, historically. We saw that with Muradin. Lack of acceptance of this new truth will likewise kill them - all of them, save a few stragglers.

emphasis added.

 

I agree with this.

[Yamahako]

As bad as Aviendha's vision is, it's better than the DO winning.

 

I wonder if it really is...

If the pattern is destroyed, does that get rid of fate, and thus make free will truly exist again? If the wheel is broken, does that make Time unbound and no longer doomed to repeat itself?

 

It seems like the Creator is a conservative force, and the DO works toward change. While I won't say that the DO does this in a positive way, it makes me think that maybe it really isn't as bad as all that if the DO does win.

 

I know the idea of a cyclical universe in which I'm doomed to repeat everything kind of creeps me out - if I was forced to live in it.

[Ferdawoon]

As bad as Aviendha's vision is, it's better than the DO winning.

 

I wonder if it really is...

If the pattern is destroyed, does that get rid of fate, and thus make free will truly exist again? If the wheel is broken, does that make Time unbound and no longer doomed to repeat itself?

 

It seems like the Creator is a conservative force, and the DO works toward change. While I won't say that the DO does this in a positive way, it makes me think that maybe it really isn't as bad as all that if the DO does win.

 

I know the idea of a cyclical universe in which I'm doomed to repeat everything kind of creeps me out - if I was forced to live in it.

 

If the pattern is destroyed, everything that is part of the Pattern will vanish. Every human life have a thread. RJ have said in a quote about the balefire rod being used in that fight loooong ago that even stones have a thread in the Pattern.

So, if the Dark one destroy the Pattern, the world will end. No linear time going on. Gone. Finito.

[The Fisher King]

My contention is that if ONE thing can alter a ''definite'' future the so can something else.

 

 

Fish

 

The DO winning is the only thing that can alter a "definite" future, because if he wins he'll destroy the pattern, which is where viewings and fortellings get their info. But we don't know that the glass columns are definite.

 

Here is how I view it.

 

In the backwards trip through the pillar ter'angreal, the Aiel learned something they needed to know about their past and where they came from; why they don't use swords, how they wound up where they are, what their sin was and all of that. In the forward trip, I believe she was being shown where the Aiel were headed if they did not change - what they need to know about the future in order to become who they need to be to survive.

 

Basically, the ter'angreal teaches uncomfortable truths about you and your people. Lack of acceptance of what they saw killed Aiel, historically. We saw that with Muradin. Lack of acceptance of this new truth will likewise kill them - all of them, save a few stragglers.

emphasis added.

 

I agree with this.

 

We don't KNOW this. Cadsuane says it but even Cadsuane is not all-knowing. I believe that there are many variables at work that could possible change the threads of the futures in the story...and I believe what was seen by Avi to be one of those alterable threads.

 

 

Fish

[mj1475]

i think that on the forward trip it will be different then the backwards trip in if u accept thier fate they die. avi didn't accept thier fate, she wanted to die but she wouldn't accept what was to come.(complete specalation)

 

the first step for the aiel is to agree with the dragons peace, if not the aiel are doomed to thier fate no matter what avi tries to do to stop it. if they go to war with the empire they will lose, it might be different then her vision.

[Byzantine279]

It has been stated that even foretellings are not certainties, merely a list of what needs to happen in order for things to turn out the way the foreteller is foretelling it, though I suppose if that is true or not is debatable since more than one character has been dead wrong about these things before.

[Thrasymachus]

Min's viewings are certainties. So long as the Pattern continues to exist, then what she sees WILL happen. Dreams are views of what MIGHT happen, but are not necessary. Prophecies appear to be closer to Min's viewings than Dreams, but may be somewhere in between, that is, much more likely to occur but still not immutable. The viewings of Rhuidean may be like any of these; they may be certain, or they may be possibilities. They did reveal key points of the Aiel history, but they didn't reveal, in that history, which pivotal events HAD to happen that way, and which events just HAPPENED to be that way. In a like fashion, they now reveal key points in the future of the Aiel, but they don't reveal whether that future is immutable, or not. I think QuietAiel's take on this is correct.

 

In any event, Cadsuane's revelation about Min's viewings doesn't really have any direct relevance to Aviendha's visions, in terms of providing an "out." Min's viewings are immutable; they can only be falsified by negating the existence of all reality. If Avi's visions are likewise immutable, then Cadsuane's revelation is of no help whatsoever. The only way they could be made false is by eradicating all existence. There is no third option for such immutable foretellings.

 

And you know, it doesn't help to appeal to the authority of a character when she says "X," to establish a case for "Y," and then when someone points out that that character specifically didn't say "X thus Y," and in fact implied rather the opposite, to then question the credibility or authority of the character in saying "X." It doesn't just undermine your rhetorical opponent's case, it undermines your own case as well.

[Nightstrike]

Moiraine saw several things, and probably lots of things that won't come true. I don't believe she remembered everything she saw, either, since it was so much/many alternatives. Much of it was probably "I've got a bad feeling about that", or "I probably shouldn't sleep with the Dragon Reborn".

 

I think Aviendha can influence the outcome.

[mandersen]

Moiraine saw several things, and probably lots of things that won't come true. I don't believe she remembered everything she saw, either, since it was so much/many alternatives. Much of it was probably "I've got a bad feeling about that", or "I probably shouldn't sleep with the Dragon Reborn".

 

I think Aviendha can influence the outcome.

 

Meaning when Moiraine went to Rhuidean? That's different. she went through one of the three arches (as women do in order to become wise ones' apprentices), not the glass columns. the arches show a bunch of possible futures. of YOUR OWN futures, based on different decisions. Aviendha went through those long ago in tSR. she went through the columns to become a wise one, but then took the proscibed second trip into the columns.

[Nightstrike]

Meaning when Moiraine went to Rhuidean? That's different. she went through one of the three arches (as women do in order to become wise ones' apprentices), not the glass columns. the arches show a bunch of possible futures. of YOUR OWN futures, based on different decisions. Aviendha went through those long ago in tSR. she went through the columns to become a wise one, but then took the proscibed second trip into the columns.

Yes, you're right. I mixed things up a bit. Although it still shows that there can be "visions/whatever" of the future that may not happen exactly the same as viewed. The Wise Ones who "told" Moiraine that she should visit Rhuidean said that "already things differ from what we've seen" (or something like that?). That was what they'd seen in their own dreams, wasn't it?

[Thrasymachus]

 

Yes, you're right. I mixed things up a bit. Although it still shows that there can be "visions/whatever" of the future that may not happen exactly the same as viewed. The Wise Ones who "told" Moiraine that she should visit Rhuidean said that "already things differ from what we've seen" (or something like that?). That was what they'd seen in their own dreams, wasn't it?

Yep, that's what they Dreamed. Dreams are mutable. What they predict can often be changed; they're often a sort of warning. Prophesies appear to be less mutable. It seems as if there has to be a way to interpret events as a fulfillment of that prophecy, but you don't usually know which events fulfill the prophecy until they've occurred and been interpreted, so as far as predictions go, they're less useful. Min's viewings are immutable. When Min sees that something will happen, it will happen, regardless of, and sometimes because of, whatever anybody does to try to stop it.

 

The question is whether Avi's visions in the glass columns of the future were on the order of Dreams, Prophesies, or Min's viewings. Since Avi didn't see alternatives, and didn't get the sense that this was just a possible future, one that could be changed, she, and some readers, worry that these visions were on the order of Min's viewings of a certain future.

[The Fisher King]

Min's viewings are certainties. So long as the Pattern continues to exist, then what she sees WILL happen. Dreams are views of what MIGHT happen, but are not necessary. Prophecies appear to be closer to Min's viewings than Dreams, but may be somewhere in between, that is, much more likely to occur but still not immutable. The viewings of Rhuidean may be like any of these; they may be certain, or they may be possibilities. They did reveal key points of the Aiel history, but they didn't reveal, in that history, which pivotal events HAD to happen that way, and which events just HAPPENED to be that way. In a like fashion, they now reveal key points in the future of the Aiel, but they don't reveal whether that future is immutable, or not. I think QuietAiel's take on this is correct.

 

In any event, Cadsuane's revelation about Min's viewings doesn't really have any direct relevance to Aviendha's visions, in terms of providing an "out." Min's viewings are immutable; they can only be falsified by negating the existence of all reality. If Avi's visions are likewise immutable, then Cadsuane's revelation is of no help whatsoever. The only way they could be made false is by eradicating all existence. There is no third option for such immutable foretellings.

 

And you know, it doesn't help to appeal to the authority of a character when she says "X," to establish a case for "Y," and then when someone points out that that character specifically didn't say "X thus Y," and in fact implied rather the opposite, to then question the credibility or authority of the character in saying "X." It doesn't just undermine your rhetorical opponent's case, it undermines your own case as well.

 

You may have missed this:''What this child sees are weavings in the pattern from a time still distant - but if the Dark One wins he will destroy the Pattern entirely. This is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds for **other** prophecies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means certain.''

 

I don't think we can doubt Cadsuane on this. I'm not prepared to, myself.

 

 

Fish

[Mr Ares]

Min's viewings are certainties. So long as the Pattern continues to exist, then what she sees WILL happen. Dreams are views of what MIGHT happen, but are not necessary. Prophecies appear to be closer to Min's viewings than Dreams, but may be somewhere in between, that is, much more likely to occur but still not immutable. The viewings of Rhuidean may be like any of these; they may be certain, or they may be possibilities. They did reveal key points of the Aiel history, but they didn't reveal, in that history, which pivotal events HAD to happen that way, and which events just HAPPENED to be that way. In a like fashion, they now reveal key points in the future of the Aiel, but they don't reveal whether that future is immutable, or not. I think QuietAiel's take on this is correct.

 

In any event, Cadsuane's revelation about Min's viewings doesn't really have any direct relevance to Aviendha's visions, in terms of providing an "out." Min's viewings are immutable; they can only be falsified by negating the existence of all reality. If Avi's visions are likewise immutable, then Cadsuane's revelation is of no help whatsoever. The only way they could be made false is by eradicating all existence. There is no third option for such immutable foretellings.

 

And you know, it doesn't help to appeal to the authority of a character when she says "X," to establish a case for "Y," and then when someone points out that that character specifically didn't say "X thus Y," and in fact implied rather the opposite, to then question the credibility or authority of the character in saying "X." It doesn't just undermine your rhetorical opponent's case, it undermines your own case as well.

 

You may have missed this:''What this child sees are weavings in the pattern from a time still distant - but if the Dark One wins he will destroy the Pattern entirely. This is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds for **other** prophecies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means certain.''

 

I don't think we can doubt Cadsuane on this. I'm not prepared to, myself.

So you don't doubt Cadsuane when she says the only out is for the Pattern to be destroyed? Pattern destroyed or prophecy fulfilled are the only outs we have, at least for those prophecies not explicitly labelled as being merely probable rather than certain (such as Dreams). If Avi's vision is only probable, then what Cadsduane said is irrelevant as it has no bearing on a prophecies that can be averted. If it is certain, then the only way out is apocalypse.

[The Fisher King]

I just don't see it as that black and white - of course; it is all open to interpretation, which is one of my favorite aspects of the series.

 

 

Fish

[Thrasymachus]

What don't you see as black and white? Avi's visions or Min's? Or other prophecies and foretellings? We know for a fact that Dreams are merely probable, because the Dreamers admit it themselves and note things that change between what happens and the Dream. Foretellings appear to be certainties, in that the terms of whatever they prophecy will come to pass, but the prophecies themselves are usually vague and can't often be interpreted to make useful predictions until after the events they Foretell have come to pass. Min's viewings are certainties. We know this from multiple sources, I think even the Creator himself (RJ). Some of them can be appropriately interpreted to make useful predictions about what will happen prior to the events they predict. That Colavere (sp?) would die by hanging, for example. That the boy Rand gives money to in Tear will die too young, for another one. Min's viewings are black and white. They either come to pass, or the universe is destroyed. There is no other alternative. Avi's visions are probably more on the order of Dreams than any other kind of Foretelling or Min's ability.

 

Foretellings come symbolically, usually involve some sort of word-play or invoking a literal meaning that people who heard or made the prophecy wouldn't understand or know about. And I believe Foretellers don't remember their Fortellings, though I think there has been some inconsistency on that. If they do remember what they Foretell, then it appears they remember the words they say rather than the meaning behind them. Elaida, for example, Foretold that the Royal Family of Andor would be central to winning the Last Battle when she was an Accepted and Tigraine was Daughter-heir. As we know, Tigraine went to join the Maidens and bore Rand. However, Elaida, when she became Aes Sedai, cozied up to the new Royal Family, the Trakands, apparently misinterpreting her own Fortelling. Nicola foretold all kinds of things, but often misinterpreted what she was told that she foretold. Basically, Foretellings aren't at all like the experiences Avi had in the glass columns. Dreams, or the alternate world ter'angreals the White Tower uses for testing for Accepted and Aes Sedai are closest in terms of the nature of the experience. This suggests that what is revealed to Avi was on the order of what is revealed in Dreams or in those ter'angreal, i.e., not necessities, but strong possibilities and revelatory of things Avi needs to know or things she needs tested on.

[Jemlin]

It just occurred me to ask the question, "Have the other Wise Ones seen the same future Avi did?" They went through the Glass Colomns as well. It would seem to explain to me their repeated need to get Rand to see the Aeil as "people" or even "his people" rather than tools to be used. Tools can be cast aside and forgotten (like it seems Avi saw). People are usually considered and cared for.

 

If they've seen the same thing, then it raises the question to me: "Did Avi see anything different in that vision that the other Wise one's didn't see that can be useful in convincing Rand?" Or would it simply be important that finally, one of the Wise One's who HAS seen this vision is in a key role to influence Rand (as one of those he loves and trusts).

 

I feel this confirms to me that the Glass Columns glimpses of the future are like the Dreams that the Wise One's see. Which, are either not always set it stone or are mis-interpreted. It's up for change, but the change isn't' easy or evident. So I am with Fish in this. Avi didn't have a strict viewing of the Pattern like Min's talent. She glimpsed the future "as the path was currently setting it".

[Nightstrike]

It just occurred me to ask the question, "Have the other Wise Ones seen the same future Avi did?" They went through the Glass Colomns as well. It would seem to explain to me their repeated need to get Rand to see the Aeil as "people" or even "his people" rather than tools to be used. Tools can be cast aside and forgotten (like it seems Avi saw). People are usually considered and cared for.

No, I think Avi was the only one. It fulfilled the same purpose for Avi as it did for the others, but then she got the additional insight into the future of her kin.