True Masters of the Blade

[Suttree]

Ok you lost me here. Nothing says he fought them 2 on 1(or maybe you meant by himself but seperately) and we have no idea how Galad would have fared against either. What we do know is Galad was faring much better against them a short time before. In addition backing up Gawyn's opinion is Nyn, Mats(who said Galad was obviously the deadlier of the two) and others that says Galad is better. So it's not just an older brother thing.

 

If you think the text is more than "screen time" and you think Gawyn has somehow vaulted past Galad despite being less naturally talented and learning slower by all means provide the evidence and we can discuss.

 

On the last point the two warders Gawyn beat we're "trainers" at this point in their career while Morgase cited Valada as one of the best blade masters in the world. Take that for what you will but there is zero way to prove how either would have fared against the other opponents(although Galads previous record in training hints he would have had little trouble).

 

Yes I meant by himself separately. Much better, I wouldn't call it that. (But we'll get back into the 2/5 vs the 3/5 argument not today!)

 

I did, it was the whole who's had the more deadly foes in the last year argument I posted. Gawyn by a long shot. Galad has been at best harrying peasents. So Learning slower (Which I would argue isn't necessairly true, Galad was older at this point), but Gawyn had battlefield experience against Aiel and other foes that Galad has been lacking. Gawyn then had experience against trained soldiers, harrying the Salidar armies, Galad again is harrying peasents (Until his big duel).

 

Anyway, I was just trying to show how there is some evidence in the words pointing it out, and not just, nothing to really prove it.

 

Last paragraph, we know they were trainers, but do we know conclusively that's all they were? Do we even know who's Warders they were? Or that they were too old?

 

It is stated that Galad is the far more natural swordsman and pick things up much easier. That was what I meant by learning faster.

 

As for the "trainers" yes at this point in their career they are older and in charge of the program for younglings at the WT.

 

To be clear what I am disputing is the assertion some put forth that the text shows Gawyn has not only caught up to Galad but passed him in skill. That is unequivocally false.

[Vardar]

Ok you lost me here. Nothing says he fought them 2 on 1(or maybe you meant by himself but seperately) and we have no idea how Galad would have fared against either. What we do know is Galad was faring much better against them a short time before. In addition backing up Gawyn's opinion is Nyn, Mats(who said Galad was obviously the deadlier of the two) and others that says Galad is better. So it's not just an older brother thing.

 

If you think the text is more than "screen time" and you think Gawyn has somehow vaulted past Galad despite being less naturally talented and learning slower by all means provide the evidence and we can discuss.

 

On the last point the two warders Gawyn beat we're "trainers" at this point in their career while Morgase cited Valada as one of the best blade masters in the world. Take that for what you will but there is zero way to prove how either would have fared against the other opponents(although Galads previous record in training hints he would have had little trouble).

 

Yes I meant by himself separately. Much better, I wouldn't call it that. (But we'll get back into the 2/5 vs the 3/5 argument not today!)

 

I did, it was the whole who's had the more deadly foes in the last year argument I posted. Gawyn by a long shot. Galad has been at best harrying peasents. So Learning slower (Which I would argue isn't necessairly true, Galad was older at this point), but Gawyn had battlefield experience against Aiel and other foes that Galad has been lacking. Gawyn then had experience against trained soldiers, harrying the Salidar armies, Galad again is harrying peasents (Until his big duel).

 

Anyway, I was just trying to show how there is some evidence in the words pointing it out, and not just, nothing to really prove it.

 

Last paragraph, we know they were trainers, but do we know conclusively that's all they were? Do we even know who's Warders they were? Or that they were too old?

 

It is stated that Galad is the far more natural swordsman and pick things up much easier. That was what I meant by learning faster.

 

As for the "trainers" yes at this point in their career they are older and in charge of the program for younglings at the WT.

 

To be clear what I am disputing is the assertion some put forth that the text shows Gawyn has not only caught up to Galad but passed him in skill. That is unequivocally false.

 

It is stated that Galad is the far more natural swordsman and pick things up much easier.

 

Stated by Gawyn, who has a little brother inferiority complex issue. (But I won't hold that against you)

 

 

Well it depends on who you have to train new warders, your best or whoever wants the job. Depending what you think, that shows a lot.

 

And lastly, I don't think it's unequivocally false, as I stated above. I think it can easily be inferred. (And not just because of the on-screen thing). All in all, at the end of the day we only have What we take from the books, and what the author(s) says. They won't always match up. In this case, I personally believe things are unclear enough for this to be a real issue, and it's going to change depending on how you take the text as it is. We'll never know unless they have a battle, and while that would be interesting, it'll never happen.

[Suttree]

Stated by Gawyn, who has a little brother inferiority complex issue. (But I won't hold that against you)

 

As I've mentioned many other characters hold the same opinion.

 

tFoH Ch. 16

The finest swordsman among those who came to study with the Warders in the Tower, he had also stood high in the classes on strategy and tactics, but Nynaeve could not remember him boasting about his prowess, even in jest. Accomplishments meant nothing to him, perhaps because they came so easily.

 

 

I can keep pulling them if you like.

[Vardar]

Stated by Gawyn, who has a little brother inferiority complex issue. (But I won't hold that against you)

 

As I've mentioned many other characters hold the same opinion.

 

tFoH Ch. 16

The finest swordsman among those who came to study with the Warders in the Tower, he had also stood high in the classes on strategy and tactics, but Nynaeve could not remember him boasting about his prowess, even in jest. Accomplishments meant nothing to him, perhaps because they came so easily.

 

 

I can keep pulling them if you like.

 

I recall the Ny quote, but I was referring to the more Natural swordsman. It wasn't said by anyone else was it? Galad, as the older brother, should be better than his little brother. And if Gawyn is holding himself back, it would be easily explained.

 

I'm just saying it's not as clear cut as you make it seem. Textualy speaking.

[Vardar]

That being said, how much older is he?

[Vardar]

Nm found a timeline.

[Thrasymachus]

Here's the question: Can a person read the books and come to the conclusion that Gawyn has surpassed Galad in swordsmanship skills? And the answer to that is absolutely, yes. You can also read the books and come to the conclusion that Bela is the Creator. In order to come to those conclusions, you have to rule out a whole bunch of textual passages that contradict them, and place special emphasis on a handful of passages that lend some support to the idea and speculate about things that are not shown on screen. On the other hand, if you don't jump to that conclusion, you don't have to do that much speculating about what goes on off-screen, you don't have to place special emphasis on a handful of passages and search for reasons to dismiss others. You just have to dismiss the speculation and the special emphasis employed by supporters of the Gawyn>Galad inference. So, the inference that Gawyn has surpassed Galad can be made because a person can infer (i.e. speculate) anything they like. It's just not a very strong inference, and not nearly as strong as the inference that blade-skill rankings between the two have remained largely unchanged. And given the Word of God, we know it's wrong anyway, so why support that position when it's not only wrong, but a weak inference?

[TommyRocker]

I want to see a rematch between Mat and the wonder-bros...

[Kamin_Majere]

Mat, the most dangerous non-channeler character in the books, the one that has lived through more campaigns in his 22 years of life than just about anyone save the great captains, the one that went toe to toe with the gholam and once it ticked him off enough started to cut it into bits, the one that the dark one himself refuses to dice with? That Mat?

 

He would probably kill them both, i'm not sure he couldn't kill Lan if they actually fought to the death. He's become incredibly dangerous, i honestly think he is the most dangerous person that can't wield balefire, and even more dangerous than a good number that can

[Sharaman]

Anyone else suspect that Taim is actually a crypto-blademaster? He says he's useless with a sword and disdains it.

But .. he's Saldean, a man of some education and he has a warder's grace in his movements.

Borderlanders all learn weapons early.

A Borderland cobbler like Narishma was good enough to challenge Lan one-to-one.

It might just be a final ace up Taim's sleeve.

I've always wondered about this.

[Maleshub]

As Warders, Hammar and Couldin are actually soldiers. And how often does a professional soldier of Valad's rank fight? Like Mat said, good Generals don't lead from the front lines. Claiming he's a soldier so he has more life and death situations than a warder is stretching it.

 

Valda was a very bad general. That was Niall's assessment since Valda was of the "Charge" genre of generals. But that has nothing to do with him being a blademaster. Being a general doesn't contradict with being a blademaster. If I recall correctly, at least two Great Captains are also blademasters: Rodel Ituralde and Gareth Bryne.

 

Mat, the most dangerous non-channeler character in the books, the one that has lived through more campaigns in his 22 years of life than just about anyone save the great captains, the one that went toe to toe with the gholam and once it ticked him off enough started to cut it into bits, the one that the dark one himself refuses to dice with? That Mat?

 

He would probably kill them both, i'm not sure he couldn't kill Lan if they actually fought to the death. He's become incredibly dangerous, i honestly think he is the most dangerous person that can't wield balefire, and even more dangerous than a good number that can

 

I agree with that. But I wonder how his loss of an eye will affect his combat prowess.

[Suttree]

Here's the question: Can a person read the books and come to the conclusion that Gawyn has surpassed Galad in swordsmanship skills? And the answer to that is absolutely, yes. You can also read the books and come to the conclusion that Bela is the Creator. In order to come to those conclusions, you have to rule out a whole bunch of textual passages that contradict them, and place special emphasis on a handful of passages that lend some support to the idea and speculate about things that are not shown on screen. On the other hand, if you don't jump to that conclusion, you don't have to do that much speculating about what goes on off-screen, you don't have to place special emphasis on a handful of passages and search for reasons to dismiss others. You just have to dismiss the speculation and the special emphasis employed by supporters of the Gawyn>Galad inference. So, the inference that Gawyn has surpassed Galad can be made because a person can infer (i.e. speculate) anything they like. It's just not a very strong inference, and not nearly as strong as the inference that blade-skill rankings between the two have remained largely unchanged. And given the Word of God, we know it's wrong anyway, so why support that position when it's not only wrong, but a weak inference?

 

+1

 

Well said Thrasy.

[TristanWebb]

 

Mat, the most dangerous non-channeler character in the books, the one that has lived through more campaigns in his 22 years of life than just about anyone save the great captains, the one that went toe to toe with the gholam and once it ticked him off enough started to cut it into bits, the one that the dark one himself refuses to dice with? That Mat?

 

He would probably kill them both, i'm not sure he couldn't kill Lan if they actually fought to the death. He's become incredibly dangerous, i honestly think he is the most dangerous person that can't wield balefire, and even more dangerous than a good number that can

 

I agree with that. But I wonder how his loss of an eye will affect his combat prowess.

Mat has lost an eye, but gained a hell of alot of luck since the last time he fought anyone mortal without 100 crossbows between them (footpads in Camelyn hardly count). As shown with killing a rabbit by throwing his dagger over his shoulder at the end of ToM, his luck will make up for anything the eye might of given him. He could probably just stand there and Galad would trip and impale himself if they ever had to duke it out :P

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah i'm not sure if Mat wouldnt be able to kill most anyone even if he closed his eyes and relied solely on his luck. But even with his depth preception hindered and a weak side (due to blindness) i'm pretty sure he's still the most deadly character in the books.

 

I mean i'm not saying he can take on a 100 charging Tarien Lancers by himself or anything, but i wouldnt be surprised if the ground opened up and swallowed them up half way through the charge

[TommyRocker]

Mat, the most dangerous non-channeler character in the books, the one that has lived through more campaigns in his 22 years of life than just about anyone save the great captains, the one that went toe to toe with the gholam and once it ticked him off enough started to cut it into bits, the one that the dark one himself refuses to dice with? That Mat?

 

He would probably kill them both, i'm not sure he couldn't kill Lan if they actually fought to the death. He's become incredibly dangerous, i honestly think he is the most dangerous person that can't wield balefire, and even more dangerous than a good number that can

 

Exactly.

 

I said somewhere else on here that I believe Mat is the single most deadly non-channeler in the series. Lan may be the deadliest swordsman, but I do believe Mat could take him.

 

As for his eye, a friend of mine growing up was blind in one eye and had the goofy depth perception issues that you'd expect, but he learned to compensate and he could shoot hoops or catch a ball as well as anyone on our high school team (we both played for the football team). He was also a pretty solid boxer. People can learn to adjust for that sort of thing.

[Orderofolde]

I want to see a rematch between Mat and the wonder-bros...

I wonder how much quicker he would have thumped him if he had his full strength and wasn't weak as a day-old kitten. Then again he might have toyed with them both for their not believing him a worthy opponent and that might have gotten him into some trouble. The problem with matches, is one different move, one wrong counter, one misread intention and it is a whole different story/outcome.

[Maleshub]

Does "A Hell in Maderin" make Mat a "Master of the Blade?" His skill with daggers/knives seems to be legendary!

[TommyRocker]

Does "A Hell in Maderin" make Mat a "Master of the Blade?" His skill with daggers/knives seems to be legendary!

Didn't Thom say Mat had the quickest hands he'd ever seen? That means something coming from HIM..

[1Brotherbill]

Don't worry guys, Galad's going to get an epic fighting scene in the final book, then we can put it to rest.

 

Who is he going to fight to prove his worth? It would have to be a non channeler. So any Forsaken is out. He isn't going to fight his brother. He isn't going to fight Rand. He won't fight Lan because he is going to be a bit busy in the next book. Galad is going to be a bit tied up in the Caemlyn fight. I don't think that Galad will prove his worth in the next book if ever when it comes to the sword.

 

As far as the most well rounded fighter would I would go with Perrin being a little bit better than Tam. Even though we haven't seen Perrin use a sword all that much. Perrin is good with the bow. Probably better than most outside of the Two Rivers and Bridgette. Perrin is great when it comes to close combat. Trolloc, Tinker, Shaido, Whitecloak, not many stand a chance against Perrin. I have a feeling he is good with a staff as well. Plus Perrin has the Tavreen thing going for him.

 

Where would you put a Ogier as far as battle strength against a Trolloc? Loial a pacifist grabbed a Trolloc from behind by both arms and tossed him across a street with enough force to break the Trollocs back. I think a Seanchan Ogier warrior would do some serious damage against a Trolloc horde. Plus they have the Ever Victorious Army tag to live up to.

[Vardar]

Don't worry guys, Galad's going to get an epic fighting scene in the final book, then we can put it to rest.

 

Who is he going to fight to prove his worth? It would have to be a non channeler. So any Forsaken is out. He isn't going to fight his brother. He isn't going to fight Rand. He won't fight Lan because he is going to be a bit busy in the next book. Galad is going to be a bit tied up in the Caemlyn fight. I don't think that Galad will prove his worth in the next book if ever when it comes to the sword.

 

As far as the most well rounded fighter would I would go with Perrin being a little bit better than Tam. Even though we haven't seen Perrin use a sword all that much. Perrin is good with the bow. Probably better than most outside of the Two Rivers and Bridgette. Perrin is great when it comes to close combat. Trolloc, Tinker, Shaido, Whitecloak, not many stand a chance against Perrin. I have a feeling he is good with a staff as well. Plus Perrin has the Tavreen thing going for him.

 

Where would you put a Ogier as far as battle strength against a Trolloc? Loial a pacifist grabbed a Trolloc from behind by both arms and tossed him across a street with enough force to break the Trollocs back. I think a Seanchan Ogier warrior would do some serious damage against a Trolloc horde. Plus they have the Ever Victorious Army tag to live up to.

 

IDK. Perrin VS Tam in pure skill I'd give it to Tam, however Perrin has the super strength that's not mentioned much after book 3.

 

As far as Mat vs Lan, Mat without a doubt. Mat would kick Lan's arse while talking trash about having to waste the time doing it.

 

Here's the question: Can a person read the books and come to the conclusion that Gawyn has surpassed Galad in swordsmanship skills? And the answer to that is absolutely, yes. You can also read the books and come to the conclusion that Bela is the Creator. In order to come to those conclusions, you have to rule out a whole bunch of textual passages that contradict them, and place special emphasis on a handful of passages that lend some support to the idea and speculate about things that are not shown on screen. On the other hand, if you don't jump to that conclusion, you don't have to do that much speculating about what goes on off-screen, you don't have to place special emphasis on a handful of passages and search for reasons to dismiss others. You just have to dismiss the speculation and the special emphasis employed by supporters of the Gawyn>Galad inference. So, the inference that Gawyn has surpassed Galad can be made because a person can infer (i.e. speculate) anything they like. It's just not a very strong inference, and not nearly as strong as the inference that blade-skill rankings between the two have remained largely unchanged. And given the Word of God, we know it's wrong anyway, so why support that position when it's not only wrong, but a weak inference?

 

I totally disagree with the bolded part and I think it shows a lot of bias. As I've explained numerous times, taking the story in logical context, the only way to conclude that Galad is still better than Gawyn (Given what they've been doing for the last year and a half) is that Galad just has God Given talent that Gawyn will never match no matter if Galad sat on his Arse for 5 years while Gawyn trained.

 

Now take that for what you will, but don't imply that people who make logical assumptions have weak points. Your word of God portion is correct, as is the begining portion, you can take whatever you like from the book, you can take the fact that Mat is really William Shakespeare reborn if you want, but no need to call the assumptions of others weak with no evidence backing it up.

[Thrasymachus]

On the contrary, the "assumption" that Galad has God Given talent that Gawyn will never match is in the text. That's not an assumption, it's stated several times from several points of view that Galad is naturally better than Gawyn. The assumption is that Gawyn got better than Galad in the time when we've seen rather a lot of Gawyn, but not so much from Galad, in terms of swordsmanship. Whether your assumptions are logical or not is largely irrelevant, they are still assumptions, and ones not supported, either directly or indirectly, by the text. Moreover, those assumptions are themselves biased. You assume that Gawyn got measurably better, while assuming that Galad did not. We don't actually know that Gawyn got better from the time between when he killed Hammar and Coulin and the time when he killed the Bloodknives. I've already explained exactly how and why Gawyn got lucky in that Bloodknife fight. The only other thing we've got going for Gawyn is his sparring matches with Sleete and that other warder. But Sleete, at least, is not recognized as a Blademaster, and neither was that other guy, while Hammar and Coulin both were. There's no reason to believe that his practice matches with good warders were significantly more difficult or taxing than his fights to the death against Hammar and Coulin. There's no reason to believe that his fight against the Bloodknives were significantly more difficult than his fights against Hammar and Coulin, as he could have gotten lucky in those fights too.

 

In short, you have to make assumptions and speculations, logical or not, to come to the conclusion that Gawyn is now better than Galad. You don't have to make any assumptions or speculations to remain with the conclusion that Galad is still better than Gawyn, you just have to refuse to make assumptions or speculate. Assumptions and speculations, no matter how logical or reasonable they may be, are always always always weaker than not making assumptions or speculations. I'm not calling your assumptions or speculations illogical, indeed, I can easily see how someone might come to the conclusion that Gawyn is now better than Galad, at least, without the Word of God in play. But I am calling your assumptions and speculations assumptions and speculations, and they are biased in favor of Gawyn and against Galad.

[TommyRocker]

Maybe Galad will take on SIX Bloodknives... and win. Without staining his pretty white cloak.

[Maleshub]

Maybe Galad will take on SIX Bloodknives... and win. Without staining his pretty white cloak.

 

All he has to do is defeat Gawyn in combat to prove the point. No need to do something as unbelievable as the bloodknives episode.

[Thrasymachus]

All he has to do is defeat Gawyn in combat to prove the point. No need to do something as unbelievable as the bloodknives episode.

 

Needless to say, that probably won't happen. Though it'd be cool to have the brothers spar just for old time's sake now that they're both at the FoM, you know, just to see. And I'll laugh if Galad still manages to school Gawyn, but I do expect it to be a much tougher fight.

[Maleshub]

All he has to do is defeat Gawyn in combat to prove the point. No need to do something as unbelievable as the bloodknives episode.

 

Needless to say, that probably won't happen. Though it'd be cool to have the brothers spar just for old time's sake now that they're both at the FoM, you know, just to see. And I'll laugh if Galad still manages to school Gawyn, but I do expect it to be a much tougher fight.

 

It has been foreshadowed that Galad will do what is right no matter who it hurts. He saved Gawyn's life twice as a child, but at the same time he told on him and Elayne when they did things that were wrong. If Gawyn ends up doing something foolish at Merrilor or afterwards, Galad might be there to set him right.

 

Another option would be Galad fighting his uncle Luc and killing him. That would be a nice fight as well!