"Game of Thrones" = "Game of Houses"?

[Zappa3837]

I can't help but notice the parallel between what some of Robert Jordan's characters call Daes Dae'mar in WOT, or the "Game of Houses", and what some of George R. R. Martin's characters refer to as the "Game of Thrones" in ASOIAF. The only difference (besides the particular players) being that in Martin's novels, the "Game of Thrones" is at the center of almost every single aspect of story, whereas the things you would ordinarily expect from a fantasy novel, i.e. magic, dragons, and so forth, are more towards the periphery, while in Jordan's novels, it's closer to the opposite (although, i would have to say that Jordan gives way more play to his "Game of Houses" in WOT than Martin gives the fantastic in ASOIAF, not to say either is the better or worse for how they chose to divvy these things up, I'm just stating fact. I'm also not saying that Martin's work is of any less artistic merit because he so obviously borrowed from Jordan, although some of you may disagree).

 

I did hear Martin say once in an interview that Jordan was a huge influence on him, or at least something to that effect (the interview is one of the few that are on youtube if you want to find it, I can't remember the exact one though). When asked by to give specifics, he declined to oblige, but instead just said something of the sort that the similarities are plain to see for anyone who looks for them.

 

However, I wasn't even looking when I saw the "Game of Houses"/"Game of Thrones" similarity, it just sort of jumped out at me. Perhaps this parallel is so obvious that it goes without saying, and nothing interesting could come of discussing it; or, again being that this parallel is so plain for anybody who has even the most meager acquaintance with both of these series', there has already been one or several discussions of it in this very forum. Nonetheless, the best way to find out if either of these are true, or neither, is to just throw it out there and see what you guys think (I realize also that I could spend what could turn out to be hours sifting through the several hundred, if not thousands, of pages in the "General wheel of Time Discussion" section alone, not including the other forum categories, but that would be too tedious and time consuming).

 

So, What do you think? Is the parallel as obvious as I make it out to be? If so, does this fact in any way diminish the value of Martin's work?

[Kadere]

Well "Game of Houses"/"Game of Thrones" is just clever ways to say "Hey, politics exist." In both series, in fact in any fantasy series with a scope outside of a young boy finding a sword and saving a princess, you're going to see politics. Lords and ladies wanting more power, or fighting to hold their power, or losing their power. WoT is about a world heading towards it's end, and to RJ he felt that even in dire circumstances like that people would still be selfish and try to gain power or have others lose theirs. It didn't seem realistic to him to have a group of people meet the savior of mankind and say, "Oh you say you're the savior of mankind, and you have a prophecy to prove it? Well than right-o, let's go into battle for you!" He believed in self-interest and that that would play a HUGE part in everything, even what the savior was doing would be more for himself then for others good.

 

Martin has much of the same feeling, but where he differs is that his Game of Thrones doesn't just end with losing power, it ends with losing your life. If you lose, you die. The End. Martin agrees in self-interest and that in times of turmoil people will seize opportunities, but he makes an even bigger game out of it, and he makes it more dangerous.

 

But you could almost say RJ was writing for a younger audience then Martin, and leave it at that. Either way the names might be similar, but I don't really think Martin read RJ and thought "oh I'm going to take this name and change it a little." It's probably no more then a tiny coincidence.

[master]

heres the thing. No ideas are new. I've heard of politics being called the "dance". Rand starts out as a sheepherder [farm/country boy stereotype] becomes the dragon [chosen one stereotype] becomes ruler of of half of a continent [hero of story becomes king stereotype]. His mother was a queen [royal blood stereotype]. tolkien, paolioni, dungeons and dragons all have "beast" races. Orcs for half of fanatsy, urgals for paolini, shadowspawn for jorda. And the three answers/wishes of the finn has kind of been done before.

[Cybertrolloc]

I'll probably always be prejudiced on whatever daemar because while most everything in tGH was great, those parts really went clunk. Sure, there's bits with Aes Sedai not really caring about who holds the crown or pushing one faction over another (r.e. Carhien LoC in the month before the kidnapping).

 

So ASoIaF apologetics: take the first three books less the few fantastic elements and you have a great piece of War of the Roses type period fiction (while being dark and brutal so obviously not for everyone). ASoIaF is about those with or near those with political power almost exclusively, and they don't know that the apocalypse is nigh. I haven't read book 5 yet, so remains to be seen how the great sideshow plays out in the remainder of the story (even if it falls apart, who cares, we got the amazing first trilogy).

 

In WoT we have a combination of political players who are almost exclusively background, who have several different motivations. Some are actively pledged to the Shadow, some are influenced by those who are, some are just dumb, some do things that don't help matters but with good intention. Additionally, they're supposed to know about the prophesized end of the world and all, but most don't believe it :) We have our big three heroes who bend people's wills towards what they want/need as well...so if you're RJ, maybe you don't publish all the stuff you wrote about say the political situation of Illian because it's not going to matter since they're just going to hand Rand a crown at the end anyway. Additionally many of our viewpoint characters aren't going to understand the political landscape anyway, or at least sidestep it (Aes Sedai, tavaren, etc).

 

Of course there's more, the Aiel WO or Seafolk to look at, but I'll leave off here for now.

[Mr Ares]

I don't know if GRRM has read WoT. I do know that he was very grateful to RJ for providing the cover quote for AGoT, something which he credits with helping to generate a lot of sales for the book. I don't think Martin "obviously" borrowed from RJ. Certainly there isn't really anything in ASoIaF that screams WoT rip off (they have similarities, but nothing that can obviously be aid to be Martin borrowing from Jordan, although much that could be them borrowing from the same sources). So no, similarities between the two cannot be said to detract from th artistic merit of either. They just came up with similar names for the same thing in this case.

[kght22]

the great game is no new concept.

[Vinny]

the great game is no new concept.

 

Yeah I don't see any big connections between these two series, apart from the fact that they are both big series. The tone is completely different. And martin seems to have strong political feelings, while Jordan is almost like an anthropologist, just showing these different nations as they are.

[Never]

There's a character in asoiaf called something like Lord Trebor Jordayn of Tor.

[Byzantine279]

Really? Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never.

 

The names are most likely coincidental, the fact is politics has been called many, many things.

[LeeM.Erickson]

There was also mentioned of a Maester Rigney who believed that time was cyclical.

 

I've sometimes described A Song of Ice and Fire to some of my friends who haven't read it, but did read WoT, as: Daes Dae'mar, the series.

 

Not to imply that GRRM stole it or even borrowed the idea in any way, but to indicate the scheming politics that are prevalent in the books.

 

I've also referred to Inception as Tel'aran'rhiod: The Movie

[Luckers]

I once had a chat with George about RJ. The man's deeply respectful of what Jordan achieved, but to be honest he's too pre-occupied with his own series to know specifics from Jordan's.

[Cybertrolloc]

Read his Rand/Jaime cage match, he might be more up on it than BS ;)

[randsc]

I was reading this book about a provincial lad, who started with a few friends but built a massive world-wide following. This young man was the Champion of the Light, and responsible for the Salvation of the world, and even the universe.

 

What I want to know is this: Who do I contact to report this obvious rip-off of Jordan's work? Whoever the author of this "Bible" thing is ought to be ashamed.

[Kaznen]

"In Daes Dae'mar you win, or you die."

 

Can't believe no one said this already.

[Zappa3837]

For those of you who think that the similarities between GOT/GOH are mere coincidence: Is "wolf dreams" a coincidence too?

[Zappa3837]

I once had a chat with George about RJ. The man's deeply respectful of what Jordan achieved, but to be honest he's too pre-occupied with his own series to know specifics from Jordan's.

It doesn't require a close read to know what the Game of Houses is. Anybody of at least average intelligence who skimmed "the Great Hunt" would have at least a working idea of what Daes Dae'mar is. After all, one chapter of GH is entitled "Daes Dae'mar" Plus, the book came out six years before "Game of Thrones", and most likely well before Martin was too wrapped up in ASOIAF to read at least the first two WOTs.

[Zappa3837]

Really? Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never.

 

The names are most likely coincidental, the fact is politics has been called many, many things.

You actually help make my point. The fact that "politics" or "political intrigue" have each gone by many names actually makes it LESS likely that Jordan and Martin would converge on almost identical names for two very similar types of goings-on, and more likely that one borrowed from the other.

 

If I understand "Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never." correctly as saying that Martin may be paying homage to Jordan by using a similar name to refer to a similar type of phenomena (or something to that effect), or giving Jordan a "nod" or tip of the hat, I completely agree with you. I think that is exactly what he is doing, and Martin even mentions that he often does this kind of thing (Lol, He actually says: "I do that kind of shit all of the time" 47:52

)

[Suttree]

For those of you who think that the similarities between GOT/GOH are mere coincidence: Is "wolf dreams" a coincidence too?

 

You keep stating these things as if RJ was the one who came up with them originally. Let' see politics being called a game and kinship with animals in fantasy? Never heard that before. Come on man, you are reaching pretty hard.

[Cybertrolloc]

Ouch, I've been out-trolled pretty hard. Thx for the @google talk, hadn't thought to check if Martin had done one.

 

Omigod! They use swords in Song and there's swords in WoT! Shameful!

[Mr Ares]

For those of you who think that the similarities between GOT/GOH are mere coincidence: Is "wolf dreams" a coincidence too?

Yes. There are similarities between the two works, but most of them are things so generic they could come from any work of fantasy. There's nothing so specific that one must think of WoT as the source.

 

 

I once had a chat with George about RJ. The man's deeply respectful of what Jordan achieved, but to be honest he's too pre-occupied with his own series to know specifics from Jordan's.

It doesn't require a close read to know what the Game of Houses is. Anybody of at least average intelligence who skimmed "the Great Hunt" would have at least a working idea of what Daes Dae'mar is. After all, one chapter of GH is entitled "Daes Dae'mar" Plus, the book came out six years before "Game of Thrones", and most likely well before Martin was too wrapped up in ASOIAF to read at least the first two WOTs.

I'm not aware of Martin having read WoT. Certainly not when he started writing ASoIaF, and he doesn't really have the time now. If he hasn't read it, your point falls rather flat, doesn't it? Now, if you were talking about similarities between Martin and Tad Williams, you might have a point as GRRM has read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

 

 

Really? Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never.

 

The names are most likely coincidental, the fact is politics has been called many, many things.

You actually help make my point. The fact that "politics" or "political intrigue" have each gone by many names actually makes it LESS likely that Jordan and Martin would converge on almost identical names for two very similar types of goings-on, and more likely that one borrowed from the other.

No, it doesn't. It could just as easily indicate they were both inspired by the same source - the Great Game, for example.

 

If I understand "Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never." correctly as saying that Martin may be paying homage to Jordan by using a similar name to refer to a similar type of phenomena (or something to that effect), or giving Jordan a "nod" or tip of the hat, I completely agree with you.

You do not understand correctly. The tip of the hat is in reference to Martin having a Lord Trebor Jordayne of the Tor, and an Archmaester Rigney - both clear references to RJ. he also has a Lord Vance. But, again, Martin was grateful to RJ for the cover quote he gave AGoT, but I'm not aware of him having read the series. And if he hasn't read any of the books, then there really is no basis for saying that he copied anything off RJ.

 

Omigod! They use swords in Song and there's swords in WoT! Shameful!

There are swords in history as well. Clearly history is just a cheap rip off of WoT.

[Zappa3837]

Ouch, I've been out-trolled pretty hard. Thx for the @google talk, hadn't thought to check if Martin had done one.

 

Omigod! They use swords in Song and there's swords in WoT! Shameful!

"Omigod! They use swords in Song and there's swords in WoT! Shameful!" = childish/bad analogy

And I never said anything about Martin's borrowing from Jordan/paying Jordan homage being shameful. Quite the opposite, I think it's honorable to acknowledge one's influences.

[Zappa3837]

I was reading this book about a provincial lad, who started with a few friends but built a massive world-wide following. This young man was the Champion of the Light, and responsible for the Salvation of the world, and even the universe.

 

What I want to know is this: Who do I contact to report this obvious rip-off of Jordan's work? Whoever the author of this "Bible" thing is ought to be ashamed.

Very clever! Yes, every fantasy novel has it's own Jesus Christ.

 

However, While your reply does have rhetorical appeal, and no doubt several people got a laugh or two out of it, you seem to have missed my point. My point wasn't that Martin deals with some of the same themes as Jordan (or for that matter, several of the same themes common to nearly all fantasy novels), it was that he deals with some of the same themes AND gives at least one of these an almost identical name to the one Jordan uses in WOT. Could this be a coincidence? Absolutely, it just seems unlikely.

 

Also, I haven't, and wouldn't, use language like "rip-off" to describe what I believe Martin did; nor do I think he should be in any way ashamed of it. I'll say it again, I think it is quite respectable to pay homage to an influence.

 

As an aside, I actually happen to enjoy Martin quite a bit more than I do Jordan, even though I love both.

[Werthead]

After Robert Jordan provided the cover quote for GoT in 1996, I believe GRRM did in fact start reading THE EYE OF THE WORLD. However, IIRC he decided to wait until the series was closer to completion (irony, I know) before proceeding further. He's also made a similar choice with regards to Steven Erikson's work, and only read Scott Bakker's once the first trilogy was out. He has little specific knowledge of the Wheel of Time books. I believe he recruited some WoT-knowledgeable friends to help with the cage match.

 

However, the references to Lord Trebor Jordayne of the Tor and to Archmaester Rigney are deliberate shout-outs to Jordan. He also has shout-outs to Tad Williams, Gardner Dozois, Roger Zelazny, Jack Vance and numerous other authors in the books.

[Zappa3837]

For those of you who think that the similarities between GOT/GOH are mere coincidence: Is "wolf dreams" a coincidence too?

Yes. There are similarities between the two works, but most of them are things so generic they could come from any work of fantasy. There's nothing so specific that one must think of WoT as the source.

 

 

I once had a chat with George about RJ. The man's deeply respectful of what Jordan achieved, but to be honest he's too pre-occupied with his own series to know specifics from Jordan's.

It doesn't require a close read to know what the Game of Houses is. Anybody of at least average intelligence who skimmed "the Great Hunt" would have at least a working idea of what Daes Dae'mar is. After all, one chapter of GH is entitled "Daes Dae'mar" Plus, the book came out six years before "Game of Thrones", and most likely well before Martin was too wrapped up in ASOIAF to read at least the first two WOTs.

I'm not aware of Martin having read WoT. Certainly not when he started writing ASoIaF, and he doesn't really have the time now. If he hasn't read it, your point falls rather flat, doesn't it? Now, if you were talking about similarities between Martin and Tad Williams, you might have a point as GRRM has read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

 

 

Really? Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never.

 

The names are most likely coincidental, the fact is politics has been called many, many things.

You actually help make my point. The fact that "politics" or "political intrigue" have each gone by many names actually makes it LESS likely that Jordan and Martin would converge on almost identical names for two very similar types of goings-on, and more likely that one borrowed from the other.

No, it doesn't. It could just as easily indicate they were both inspired by the same source - the Great Game, for example.

Good point, that would definitely help make sense out of it, if they had both drawn from the same source. But the only "Great Game" I know of came out in '92, two years after "The Great Hunt" was published.

 

If I understand "Well, no one ever said he can't give a nod, Never." correctly as saying that Martin may be paying homage to Jordan by using a similar name to refer to a similar type of phenomena (or something to that effect), or giving Jordan a "nod" or tip of the hat, I completely agree with you.

You do not understand correctly. The tip of the hat is in reference to Martin having a Lord Trebor Jordayne of the Tor, and an Archmaester Rigney - both clear references to RJ. he also has a Lord Vance. But, again, Martin was grateful to RJ for the cover quote he gave AGoT, but I'm not aware of him having read the series. And if he hasn't read any of the books, then there really is no basis for saying that he copied anything off RJ.

 

Omigod! They use swords in Song and there's swords in WoT! Shameful!

There are swords in history as well. Clearly history is just a cheap rip off of WoT.

[Zappa3837]

It was an interesting discussion, but as it turns out, I WAS WRONG. I sent George RR Martin an email asking him whether or not he used the title "Game of Thrones" as a tip of the hat to Jordan, and he replied:

 

"I have given Jim (his real name) a tip of the hat with Lord Jordayne of the Tor, and another with Archmaester Rigney. The game thing is not that, however."

 

He wrote me back within 15 minutes, which says a lot for him, especially considering the inordinate amount of mail he must get.