Cadsuane

[Vardar]

Again it is a major theme of text. It should go without saying. The entire Rand storyline was about what happens when he goes brittle due to all "cold logic". The DO almost won as he was seconds away from destroying the world and would have due to that train of though were it not for Cads' plan. Vards is arguing against perhaps the biggest moral lesson RJ placed in the series.

 

I'm saying the moral lesson failed, or was conveyed badly. The DO nearly won, however if Zen Rand (or Pre-Dark Rand) had to make those decisions (I've said this numerous times) the DO would have won anyway.

 

Yes, Rand is one with the land, he needs to care, etc, however in making those examples he leaves us with th eobvious fact that Dark Rand obviously had a reason to exist. Those decisions he made were necessary, they happened for a reason. They seem harsh, but if Non Dark Rand had to make them, the DO would have won anyway.

 

It's like Allanna's bonding-rape of Rand. It sucked. It's pretty damn negative, however Rand would not have survived in the box without it.

 

So when you say Dark Rand nearly led to the destruction of the world, I counter that's not necessarily true. Dark Rand helped save the world too. It's not all negative.

[Suttree]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

Yes her "servants" were not, but she is the best alive at compulsion. Many of the people, especially the ones who would have interaction with the outside world would have been lightly touched.

[Lisa Campbell]

The one I know of died after Nynaeve healed him (or removed the Compulsion for those who prefer to think that way). He was certainly out in the world.

 

With Alsalam and Arad Doman she used deception/disguise.

 

I don't think it's stated what happened to the Domani Lady Nynaeve healed in her own prison.

 

Can you remind me of any others Sutts?

[Vardar]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

Yes her "servants" were not, but she is the best alive at compulsion. Many of the people, especially the ones who would have interaction with the outside world would have been lightly touched.

 

That kid that Ny tried to save had interaction with the outside world, and he died removing it.

[driedraspberry]

 

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

Yeah, he had no hopes of winning and in his actions would technically benefit all those others Graendal enslaved had she lived. So basically, I saw it as the choice between killing a bunch of hopeless cases and saving many more from the same fate, and the world. Or let a very dangerous person go and most like those hopeless cases would die anyway.

 

If we're going to argue sacrifices then Rand should never have rallied the Aiel, started the Black Tower, battled the Seanchan (should hand them Randland, really). How are the lives sacrificed in those cases any less precious? Acting to serve the greater good of the world is pretty much the point of the dragon: division and death, but ultimately a peaceful world.

[avernite]

Well, thing is: Dark Rand did nothing that was obviously horrible.

He did, however, come awful close a few times (destroying Ebou Dar just because the Seanchan are conquerors who are in his way might still be argued, but killing Tam or destroying the world would certainly be horrible).

In other words, Dark Rand was a way too risky gamble. Just one mistake and he WOULD be a horror destroying the world, and the world just couldn't risk it. Plus the food spoiling was pretty bad, but that was not his conscious effect.

 

Consider: Moiraine took out Forsaken. Somewhat sane Rand took out Forsaken. Dark Rand took out Forsaken. None of them seem that superior, but Dark Rand has the distinct disadvantage that anything might throw him over the edge.

Even so I do see the strategy involved in destroying Natrin's barrow as decent, especially as nearly all inhabitants were beyond saving, most like. But it's not what he did, but what he only barely avoided doing several times and he would almost certainly actually do them at some point.

[Suttree]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

Yes her "servants" were not, but she is the best alive at compulsion. Many of the people, especially the ones who would have interaction with the outside world would have been lightly touched.

 

That kid that Ny tried to save had interaction with the outside world, and he died removing it.

 

One example doesn't prove your point. We know there is a wide spectrum of compulsion from what Moggy did to Elayne and Nyn all the way up to the mindless servants. You can disagree all you want but those people with the lightest forms are not acceptable collateral damage to me, nor is the damage done to the pattern. Especially considering the plan failed. As others mentioned there were other options.

 

Edit: @ Vard...are you a member at Theoryland? I would really be interested in seeing this "Dark/Rational Rand" debate play out over there.

[Vardar]

Well, thing is: Dark Rand did nothing that was obviously horrible.

He did, however, come awful close a few times (destroying Ebou Dar just because the Seanchan are conquerors who are in his way might still be argued, but killing Tam or destroying the world would certainly be horrible).

In other words, Dark Rand was a way too risky gamble. Just one mistake and he WOULD be a horror destroying the world, and the world just couldn't risk it. Plus the food spoiling was pretty bad, but that was not his conscious effect.

 

Consider: Moiraine took out Forsaken. Somewhat sane Rand took out Forsaken. Dark Rand took out Forsaken. None of them seem that superior, but Dark Rand has the distinct disadvantage that anything might throw him over the edge.

Even so I do see the strategy involved in destroying Natrin's barrow as decent, especially as nearly all inhabitants were beyond saving, most like. But it's not what he did, but what he only barely avoided doing several times and he would almost certainly actually do them at some point.

Pretty much.

[Lisa Campbell]

Read my post #128 Sutts and get back please.

[Vardar]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

Yes her "servants" were not, but she is the best alive at compulsion. Many of the people, especially the ones who would have interaction with the outside world would have been lightly touched.

 

That kid that Ny tried to save had interaction with the outside world, and he died removing it.

 

One example doesn't prove your point. We know there is a wide spectrum of compulsion from what Moggy did to Elayne and Nyn all the way up to the mindless servants. You can disagree all you want but those people with the lightest forms are not acceptable collateral damage to me, nor is the damage done to the pattern. Especially considering the plan failed. As others mentioned there were other options.

 

Edit: @ Vard...are you a member at Theoryland? I would really be interested in seeing this "Dark/Rational Rand" debate play out over there.

 

 

Not yet. I may join.

 

But seriously, you really thing the time and effort as well and inherent danger would have been acceptable? I really find that hard to swallow. Yes it's one example, but given what LTT thinks, and the example they have, the odds of her allowing people near her on a permant basis who aren't that far under is slim. Rand even says it. It's totally not worth the risk.

 

Remember, those people who lived there would be a danger to her, she wouldn't have kept them under heavy. Only visitors got the light touches, those people living there, heavy hand.

[Adam Underdahl]

 

This is a world where the end does not justify the means. Aridhol tried to fight the shadow by being as ruthless and merciless as it. One would think killing the shadow means you stand for the light. But it does not. Aridhol became corrupted and evil. Rand realizes this. He cannot just kill the shadow however possible. He must weigh his every decision against his morales and his conscience. Only then can he act. This is why Rand has become Zen Rand.

 

A good argument about Cads. She only cares about the future result, not her methods. If she has to resort to kidnapping, etc it doesn't matter as long as it gets her to where she wants to be.

 

The same can be said for Rand's actions at Natrins Burrow. Is balefiring an entire castle full of people bad? Absolutely. Will it be worth it if Graendal dies? To cuendillar Rand, yes. That end justifies the means. Chances are the people in there are so fully under Compulsion that it could technically be seen as mercy, regardless of what Suttree says. There are several statement in the books from the Forsaken and Rand that those people near Graendal are completely dominated by Compulsion. That "one example" of the boy doesn't "prove" this point, but it argues strongly for it. I'd say much stronger than the counterpoint of those people in the Burrow being saved. You say that those with the slightest touch could be saved, and they probably could, but if the boy couldn't be saved, and he was out in the world continuing his normal life relatively well, how can you argue that those in her citadel of power would be any less Compelled?

 

I'd also argue that Rand's incident in Altara wasn't completely his fault. He couldn't have known about the Bowl and how it messed with the Power. He shoud have and probably did know that the Power was acting wonky, but he probably wasn't in the best state of mind at the time either.

[Clouded]

Again it is a major theme of text. It should go without saying. The entire Rand storyline was about what happens when he goes brittle due to all "cold logic". The DO almost won as he was seconds away from destroying the world and would have due to that train of though were it not for Cads' plan. Vards is arguing against perhaps the biggest moral lesson RJ placed in the series.

 

I'm saying the moral lesson failed, or was conveyed badly. The DO nearly won, however if Zen Rand (or Pre-Dark Rand) had to make those decisions (I've said this numerous times) the DO would have won anyway.

 

Yes, Rand is one with the land, he needs to care, etc, however in making those examples he leaves us with th eobvious fact that Dark Rand obviously had a reason to exist. Those decisions he made were necessary, they happened for a reason. They seem harsh, but if Non Dark Rand had to make them, the DO would have won anyway.

 

It's like Allanna's bonding-rape of Rand. It sucked. It's pretty damn negative, however Rand would not have survived in the box without it.

 

So when you say Dark Rand nearly led to the destruction of the world, I counter that's not necessarily true. Dark Rand helped save the world too. It's not all negative.

 

I'd like to see you defend this. To me, the only thing Dark Rand was good for, was as a method of dealing with the negative results of decisions Rand made. I would not say that Dark Rand handled the results well. He buries his emotions. Within the text, we actually see Rand get closer and closer to destroying the world as he gets darker and darker.

 

On the flip side, if rand had become Zen ( AKA followed the advice of the Wise Ones, Cadsuane, and Nynaeve, and becoming strong like the Willow ) he would have faced the results of the decisions. We know Zen Rand ( Rand post TGS) can handle these decisions without breaking, because he is currently doing just that. I also think that if Rand had gone Zen earlier, he would have made better decisions.

[Clouded]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

I was thinking more that attempting to save them would benefit him. Deaths eat at Rand's soul. We've seen that since the beginning. While he won't admit as Dark Rand, we know they do. By attempting to save them using some other route, Rand could leave those deaths off of his responsibility. He could say that at least he tried.

[Suttree]

Again it is a major theme of text. It should go without saying. The entire Rand storyline was about what happens when he goes brittle due to all "cold logic". The DO almost won as he was seconds away from destroying the world and would have due to that train of though were it not for Cads' plan. Vards is arguing against perhaps the biggest moral lesson RJ placed in the series.

 

I'm saying the moral lesson failed, or was conveyed badly. The DO nearly won, however if Zen Rand (or Pre-Dark Rand) had to make those decisions (I've said this numerous times) the DO would have won anyway.

 

Yes, Rand is one with the land, he needs to care, etc, however in making those examples he leaves us with th eobvious fact that Dark Rand obviously had a reason to exist. Those decisions he made were necessary, they happened for a reason. They seem harsh, but if Non Dark Rand had to make them, the DO would have won anyway.

 

It's like Allanna's bonding-rape of Rand. It sucked. It's pretty damn negative, however Rand would not have survived in the box without it.

 

So when you say Dark Rand nearly led to the destruction of the world, I counter that's not necessarily true. Dark Rand helped save the world too. It's not all negative.

 

I'd like to see you defend this. To me, the only thing Dark Rand was good for, was as a method of dealing with the negative results of decisions Rand made. I would not say that Dark Rand handled the results well. He buries his emotions. Within the text, we actually see Rand get closer and closer to destroying the world as he gets darker and darker.

 

On the flip side, if rand had become Zen ( AKA followed the advice of the Wise Ones, Cadsuane, and Nynaeve, and becoming strong like the Willow ) he would have faced the results of the decisions. We know Zen Rand ( Rand post TGS) can handle these decisions without breaking, because he is currently doing just that. I also think that if Rand had gone Zen earlier, he would have made better decisions.

 

Not to mention the effects on the world around him as he grows darker.

[driedraspberry]

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from' date=' so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

[/quote']

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).

 

I was thinking more that attempting to save them would benefit him. Deaths eat at Rand's soul. We've seen that since the beginning. While he won't admit as Dark Rand, we know they do. By attempting to save them using some other route, Rand could leave those deaths off of his responsibility. He could say that at least he tried.

 

I think Rand not wanting to take responsibility for deaths when he's stuck between a rock and a hard place is far from beneficiary. Say if he had killed Lanfear, accepted responsibility for killing a woman, Moiraine wouldn't have "died". I mean, normally Rand wouldn't kill any of the female forsaken at the peril of the world, for the sake of his conscious. He can't even enact justice on women who do terrible things, b/c u know they might kill themselves and that'd be his fault...

 

The best thing Rand could do for himself is take up pacifism like the Tinkkers. War and killing people is terrible business for his peace of mind, even if for those he claims need killing. But then where would the world be?

[thisguy]

Rand (the other two Tav too, but him the most) really has very little latitude. In the beginning it seems like being Tav is so awesome but the guy can't even get upset or angry without people suffering for it. Sucks to be him.

[Suttree]

If his "Dark Rand" persona is actually good and rational why did the world to rot around him? How many people world wide starved simply because he was being played by the DO and turning darker. It goes back to the game of Sha'ra. The DO was allowing him to think he had control of his actions while pulling the strings. It is one of the ways to win the game and he almost got Rand to destroy the world.

[thisguy]

If his "Dark Rand" persona is actually good and rational why did the world to rot around him? How many people world wide starved simply because he was being played by the DO and turning darker. It goes back to the game of Sha'ra. The DO was allowing him to think he had control of his actions while pulling the strings. It is one of the ways to win the game and he almost got Rand to destroy the world.

 

Does his link to the land have to do with his deeds or his feelings? It kinda looks like it's his feeling, I could be wrong.

[Maleshub]

I get you. The person I responded to said she was almost as bad as Rand. Rand's saving the world for everyone and thinks he's going to die and literally the most powerful people on the planet want to kill him and everyone bitches and complains to the guy. I think she's worse than him. What is he, like 22-23 at this point? She's like 200 years old or something. The dude's a good dude. I'd deal with his temper, I see decent guys get upset over much less. If she wanted to help him, maybe she could have gotten him a personal masseuse and a daily foot rub.

 

Regarding the "bold" text, that kind of therapy failed. Min would tell you!

 

As to the Dark Rand side debate, Rand himself admits that the DO nearly had him.

 

- Why did Ba'alzamon and Lanfear send Rand into the Mirror World in TGH? They wanted him to channel to have the taint seep into his mind.

- Why did Semirhage send Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to save Rand from Sammael? Because he was set on a path that would eventually lead him to serve the DO.

- Why did the DO order his minions to let the Lord of Chaos rule? To frustrate Rand's plans and drive him towards despair.

- Why did Moridin order Graendal to make Rand feel anguish, failure and despair? To drive him towards more hardness.

- Why did the DO give Rand access to the TP and allow him to kill Semirhage (one of his top Foresaken)? To drive him towards more despair and to link him to the DO.

 

Regardless of my personal take on it, here is what Rand says about himself in ToM: The Amyrlin's Anger:

 

"What has happened to you?" she found herself asking as she leaned forward on the Amyrlin Seat.

 

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it, though she did so by accident. Still, I shall have to lift her exile, I suspect."

[thisguy]

I get you. The person I responded to said she was almost as bad as Rand. Rand's saving the world for everyone and thinks he's going to die and literally the most powerful people on the planet want to kill him and everyone bitches and complains to the guy. I think she's worse than him. What is he, like 22-23 at this point? She's like 200 years old or something. The dude's a good dude. I'd deal with his temper, I see decent guys get upset over much less. If she wanted to help him, maybe she could have gotten him a personal masseuse and a daily foot rub.

 

Regarding the "bold" text, that kind of therapy failed. Min would tell you!

 

As to the Dark Rand side debate, Rand himself admits that the DO nearly had him.

 

- Why did Ba'alzamon and Lanfear send Rand into the Mirror World in TGH? They wanted him to channel to have the taint seep into his mind.

- Why did Semirhage send Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to save Rand from Sammael? Because he was set on a path that would eventually lead him to serve the DO.

- Why did the DO order his minions to let the Lord of Chaos rule? To frustrate Rand's plans and drive him towards despair.

- Why did Moridin order Graendal to make Rand feel anguish, failure and despair? To drive him towards more hardness.

- Why did the DO give Rand access to the TP and allow him to kill Semirhage (one of his top Foresaken)? To drive him towards more despair and to link him to the DO.

 

Regardless of my personal take on it, here is what Rand says about himself in ToM: The Amyrlin's Anger:

 

"What has happened to you?" she found herself asking as she leaned forward on the Amyrlin Seat.

 

"I was broken," Rand said, hands behind his back. "And then, remarkably, I was reforged. I think he almost had me, Egwene. It was Cadsuane who set me to fixing it, though she did so by accident. Still, I shall have to lift her exile, I suspect."

 

Best argument I've heard here. Quotes and everything.

 

I still think she's kinda an a$$@#$@, though ;)

 

Thanks, man.

[Datakim]

I could actually see zen!Rand doing the exact thing to Graendals fortress that dark!Rand did. I mean its harsh, but it is the rational thing to do if you absolutely KNOW that the people in the fortress could not be saved (and zen!Rand who remembers everything about LTT would know that even better than dark!Rand who only had random memories.). I could see zen!Rand being able to accept that no matter how it would suck, it would be necessary and be able to live with the consequences of that. Just like how I think zen!Rand would have been capable of killing Lanfear to save Moiraine, no matter how much it hurt.

 

Well, probably not the balefire usage, that was evil. And probably not worth it. With the way the world is already unraveling, using CK powered balefire propably did far more to hurt the world than was gained by the death of a single forsaken. However I could see zen!Rand annihilating the entire fortress with more conventional fire in order to kill Graendal. It may allow Graendal to be reborn, but with the last battle imminent there may not even be time for that, and she would lose most of her influence in the proces anyway. Graendal is more usefull in manipulating thing and less usefull to the DO in open war that is imminent.

 

Beyond that, dark!Rand was evil in the sense that he was damaging the land, but I think it is indeed his emotional state that is harmfull rather than his direct actions. It seems that Rand needs to be zen in order to repel the DO and counter his influence. Anyway, it is only at the very end that dark!Rand goes totally evil with his plan to wipe out innocent civilians and destroy the world, and it is obvious that at point he has utterly lost it and descended into pure madness.

[BFG]

Takes a deep breath before wading in, and prays there are no silverpike...

 

My main problem with Cadsuane is her pride. Her way is the right way. She pushes, prods, and pokes people into doing things her way. In some ways she is as bad as Rand.

Personally, I think she's worse. Rand is what he is because of what he is (The Dragon setting up for the Final Battle) and what people like her did to him - push, prodded, poked, and worse.

 

How many times did she save his arse? I can quickly count four: Cairhien rebel camp, Far Madding, Cleansing, 1st Semirhage encounter.

 

And she was the only Aes Sedai working to teach Rand his true purpose. Whereas he thought that victory at all cost was his purpose, she saw that he was to win a victory for the Light. No one else, with the exception of the Aiel Wise Ones, had the courage to try and make sure that the DR would fight the LB sound in mind and spirit.

 

 

I think I can agree that Cadsuanes intentions were good, she recognised the problem, but her method for countering it proved remarkably inept. If it wasn't for the fact that Min told Rand her viewing that Cadsuane was needed to teach him something, he'd have exiled her months ago. During their first meeting she was purposely rude to test his character, following which she learnt about Elaidas box. This could have tempered her actions, he has very good reason to be wary around aes sedai, but instead she seems to do everything she can to put his back up. Yes she was doing it for his own good, but Moiraine proved that there was another way to get him to listen, although I don't think that it's one that Cads could have taken, witness her own comments when she figured out how to break Semirhage by destroying her image.

 

 

 

 

Somewhat ironic isn't it that the second Rand adds "Sedai" to his name he does exactly what you say above to Egwene concerning the seals when he goes to the WT.

 

 

True, true.

 

 

Re general points made by Vardarmus about logic, it's interesting that we've already met a character whose described by Min (to paraphrase) 'that one will always do what is right, no matter who it hurts' who happens to be Rands half-brother.

 

 

 

On a slight query as to Cads character there are a couple of points I don't think I've read yet. First regards the male a'dam (and I don't have the books to hand, having leant them out to a friend, so please correct me if I'm remembering this badly) although it wasn't necessarily Cads fault that Semirhage took the male a'dam, it was her responsibility, an apology might have been in order?

 

Secondly with regards the Tam incident at the end, using the Power did seem out of character, but it doesn't change the fact that she sent Tam to talk to Rand with no more than a 'probably best not mention that you've met me'. Cadsuane had no reason to not trust Tam, he's hardly a foolish child that needs pulling down and even though she didn't know him and therefore couldn't say that he wasn't a fool, equally well she had no reason to assume he was.

 

But the above two points are difficult, even in my head - both books were written by BS and as much as I appreciate the speeding up of the pace some of his characters were off.

[Suttree]

Secondly with regards the Tam incident at the end, using the Power did seem out of character, but it doesn't change the fact that she sent Tam to talk to Rand with no more than a 'probably best not mention that you've met me'.

 

She had a script for him...

 

TGS

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

[Vardar]

Secondly with regards the Tam incident at the end, using the Power did seem out of character, but it doesn't change the fact that she sent Tam to talk to Rand with no more than a 'probably best not mention that you've met me'.

 

She had a script for him...

 

TGS

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

 

I missed that.

 

Re general points made by Vardarmus about logic, it's interesting that we've already met a character whose described by Min (to paraphrase) 'that one will always do what is right, no matter who it hurts' who happens to be Rands half-brother.

 

Never really made that connection.

[BFG]

Secondly with regards the Tam incident at the end, using the Power did seem out of character, but it doesn't change the fact that she sent Tam to talk to Rand with no more than a 'probably best not mention that you've met me'.

 

She had a script for him...

 

TGS

"Interesting," Cadsuane said, her voice cold. "And did you speak the words I prepared for you?"

 

I missed that.

 

 

You're right, I forgot about that (books out on loan at the moment, so relying on obviously faulty memory). And I don't think I expressed what I meant clearly, it's difficult, because in many ways Cads does seem to be everything that a AS should be (although I think Nyn is everything I want an AS to be), but the problems with that is that because she's so much older and has so much more experience than everyone else she does have the tendency to dismiss that other people may have good input. The two things that spring to mind here are with Tam. She prepared words for Tam, but never explained why it was so important that he stick to the words (or since we don't see the initial meeting with Tam and Cads, Tam certainly doesn't understand that it's important.) It would make more sense from an outsiders perspective that if you're going to use Tam, then tell him the problem, say what you think needs saying, but leave Tam to find his own words, which would make them more real and have a better chance of reaching Rand. Difficult to know how much she knows of Tam at this stage, but assuming it's nothing then she's starting from an assumption that he's not capable of understanding what's going on. If she's spent any time at all researching Rands background, and the people that are close to him, then she's got to have found out that he's generally well respected and decidedly non-foolish.

 

The second is with regards Min and the other AS (can't remember name) and Callondor. Kudos for calling down down the other AS, but why doesn't she talk with Min further about what she knows about Callandor? It could be that it's dangerous info that Rand would be better off knowing (assuming Min would tell him), but based on Min saying that it's flawed beyond what they know, it suggests that it's a very good reason not to use it. So wouldn't it be better to say, 'look it's dangerous, this is why, either don't use, or only if there is absolutely no other way'. Or maybe she doesn't know and is just trying to maintain the AS superiority.

 

I find it difficult, I can't bring myself to like Cads, but I think she is a strong charactered AS, which is a relief after the majority of others that we've seen. I also think that although her intentions were good, she handled Rand massively badly most of the time.

 

 

Re general points made by Vardarmus about logic, it's interesting that we've already met a character whose described by Min (to paraphrase) 'that one will always do what is right, no matter who it hurts' who happens to be Rands half-brother.

 

Never really made that connection.

 

Don't think it's really important, but I was intrigued by your POV.