Cadsuane

[David Selig]

Because the purpose was behaviour modification--she was trying to make him stop acting the tyrant by making it unpleasent for him to act that way.

 

It's like slapping a child's hand as they reach out toward a fire. It's startling, unpleasent, but stops them from being burned and remains clear in their mind.

See, this is exactly the problem with her. She treated Rand like a little kid. No wonder it didn't work and he got angry.

[Suttree]

Please delete

[bigdoug1971]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

[Suttree]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

[mike hunt's here]

Cadsuane - Bea Arthur or Meryl Streep?

 

 

Or Aunt May from the Tobey McGuire Spidermans?

[Lisa Campbell]

Geez... tough choice

 

After some deliberation, Meryl Streep in The Devil Wears Prada. So dismissive but then showing appreciation for work done and growth made.

[Vardar]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

 

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, where the heck are you getting this 20+ channelers from?

[Luckers]

Because the purpose was behaviour modification--she was trying to make him stop acting the tyrant by making it unpleasent for him to act that way.

 

It's like slapping a child's hand as they reach out toward a fire. It's startling, unpleasent, but stops them from being burned and remains clear in their mind.

See, this is exactly the problem with her. She treated Rand like a little kid. No wonder it didn't work and he got angry.

Rand was acting like a little kid--temper tantrum and all--so why shouldn't she treat him like one? Because he's the Dragon?? I'd say that would be more reason, not less.

 

And it did work--Rand stepped back and dealt with Logain civilly.

[Suttree]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

 

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, where the heck are you getting this 20+ channelers from?

 

I've answered you in the AS and the Blight thread before but I'll answer you again ;)

 

RJ

In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal.

 

The fact that the men all transitioned into a normal life living longer than normal is yet more proof of her varied tactics as well. Not what one would expect from men captured by a "selfish bully" eh.

[Vardar]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

 

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, where the heck are you getting this 20+ channelers from?

 

I've answered you in the AS and the Blight thread before but I'll answer you again ;)

 

RJ

In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal.

 

The fact that the men all transitioned into a normal life living longer than normal is yet more proof of her varied tactics as well. Not what one would expect from men captured by a "selfish bully" eh.

 

Ahh, I lose track of threads eventually. I know I asked it a few times. Thanks.

 

Eh, she's a bully not a murderer, I never said she was that evil. And actually I wouldn't count that as her varied tactics when dealing with people, that's a stretch. Kinda hard to have "varied" tactics fo capturing a man, and essentially "raping" him and condeming him to death (they all die eventually). even if it is for his own good.

[Suttree]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

 

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, where the heck are you getting this 20+ channelers from?

 

I've answered you in the AS and the Blight thread before but I'll answer you again ;)

 

RJ

In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal.

 

The fact that the men all transitioned into a normal life living longer than normal is yet more proof of her varied tactics as well. Not what one would expect from men captured by a "selfish bully" eh.

 

Ahh, I lose track of threads eventually. I know I asked it a few times. Thanks.

 

Eh, she's a bully not a murderer, I never said she was that evil. And actually I wouldn't count that as her varied tactics when dealing with people, that's a stretch. Kinda hard to have "varied" tactics fo capturing a man, and essentially "raping" him and condeming him to death (they all die eventually). even if it is for his own good.

 

Everyone dies eventually. The majority of gentled individuals lose the will to live and die quickly. If Cads has techniques that allow them to live a longer productive life one and all, then yes she is using varied tactics. She obviously has ways to transition them into a normal life regardless if whether they are a peasant or king. That would not be a skill set you would think of a "selfish bully" possessing.

[Vardar]

Keep reading, dude. Cadsuane is one of my very favorite characters in the books. You will hear a lot of people complain about her, but she is amazing. For me, she is what an Aes Sedai is supposed to be. She is the example they should all follow. You'll see.....

 

Pretty much spot on. She eschewed positions of power her whole career to work for the greater good. She took down 20+(including Taim and Logain) male channelers and they were able to transition and live relatively long lives compared to what would normally be the case. She puts Rand and her mission first always regardless of what it would mean for her or the WT. She was on the verge of breaking up the BA far before most sisters would even admit they existed. She has averted wars, propped up crowns and kingdoms, rescued captives from the blight, broke up rings of DFs terrorizing towns and all the while twisted WT custom "on it's head.

 

Lastly we see her use a variety of methods to accomplish goals based on the situation including making a pact as equals with Sorilea, wary exchange of info with Verin, propping up confidence with Samitsu etc, and yes bullying as everyone knows when people step out of line or she is testing their character. All in all as RJ said, a "remarkably adaptable" woman and one of the best AS.

 

I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, where the heck are you getting this 20+ channelers from?

 

I've answered you in the AS and the Blight thread before but I'll answer you again ;)

 

RJ

In truth, Cadsuane had "a nose" for men who can channel. She faced more of them than any other sister living; she herself said more than any two Reds, maybe more than any ten. That seems to indicate at least twenty of them by that time, maybe more. She brought more of them to Tar Valon than any other sister. Of these, she never had to kill one, either because she could not capture him or because he was trying to escape. These men have ranged over the years from farmboys to nobles to the king of Tarabon, but one and all, they made much better adjustments to their fate than is considered normal.

 

The fact that the men all transitioned into a normal life living longer than normal is yet more proof of her varied tactics as well. Not what one would expect from men captured by a "selfish bully" eh.

 

Ahh, I lose track of threads eventually. I know I asked it a few times. Thanks.

 

Eh, she's a bully not a murderer, I never said she was that evil. And actually I wouldn't count that as her varied tactics when dealing with people, that's a stretch. Kinda hard to have "varied" tactics fo capturing a man, and essentially "raping" him and condeming him to death (they all die eventually). even if it is for his own good.

 

Everyone dies eventually. The majority of gentled individuals lose the will to live and die quickly. yet Cads has techniques that allow them to live a longer productive life one and all, then yes she is using varied tactics. She obviously has ways to transition them into a normal life regardless if whether they are a peasant or king. That would not be a skill set you would think of a "selfish bully" possessing.

 

I still say you guys have a very finite definition of a bully that I don't agree with.

 

 

And rereading that statement, he said better adjustments to their fate, that normal. That doesn't say they all lived. Just saying...

 

Still, I'll repeat, I never said bullies can't be adaptive, nor that if you're selfish, you're selfish 100% of the time. Maybe she doesn't have the heart to kill them, and she's worried about her own sleep at night, thus she tries to make sure they live. Just tossing it out there. Selfish people do things that seem nice on the surface all the time. As do Bullies.

 

And again, regardless or what you're doing, if you're doing it nicely or not, it's a horrible thing they have to do (Yes necessary at the time) kinda hard to vary in how you do that.

 

Hey we're going to neuter you against your will. We'll do it nicely however. Sorry, but have a nice day.

 

Edited to add, you left out some of that quote, it does say they live longer than "Normal" for those people, but short of a normal span. No times given, it's still killing them, even if you do it nicely. (Although I see what you're saying)

[Suttree]

I still say you guys have a very finite definition of a bully that I don't agree with.

 

That is rather rich considering the twisting of defintions for both "selfish" and a "bully" you did during that debate.

 

As for your speculations towards he character unfrotunately we have internal thoughts and flat out quotes ithat show her compassionate nature that contradict your reasoning. In addition we never see her shirk from doing something she feels needs to be done.

 

Lastly in terms of it not saying they all lived, from farther down in the notes we have that although the act of stilling shortens ones lifespan...

 

RJ

...they lived considerably longer than usual.

[csarmi]

Suttree, I think it's time o move on, quite pointless to argue with him.

[Vardar]

I still say you guys have a very finite definition of a bully that I don't agree with.

 

That is rather rich considering the twisting of defintions for both "selfish" and a "bully" you did during that debate.

 

As for your speculations towards he character unfrotunately we have internal thoughts and flat out quotes ithat show her compassionate nature that contradict your reasoning. In addition we never see her shirk from doing something she feels needs to be done.

 

Lastly in terms of it not saying they all lived, from farther down in the notes we have that although the act of stilling shortens ones lifespan...

 

RJ

...they lived considerably longer than usual.

 

I edited to include that.

 

There were no twistings, I posted definitions, and provided examples. The finitite issues I have is you, and your fellows, believe that 1 example proves a point against many others. It doesn't. Nothing states a selfish person can't do something unselfish once in a while, or a bully can't not bully if it gets what he/she wants, those were the basis of your arguments.

 

Regardless, we're not going to agree. Ever.

I'm not even sure why you tried to rehash this.

[csarmi]

Of course, yoy won't, you're dead wrong, but keep trolling on.

[Suttree]

There were no twistings, I posted definitions, and provided examples. The finitite issues I have is you, and your fellows, believe that 1 example proves a point against many others. It doesn't. Nothing states a selfish person can't do something unselfish once in a while, or a bully can't not bully if it gets what he/she wants, those were the basis of your arguments.

 

Mate you admitted flat out that she only uses bullying situationally as a tactic, if she doesn't bully people accept in cases when she needs to, then she isn't a bully! As for selfish not once did you provide an ounce of evidence showing hat to be the case. On the flip side we provided quotes showing her putting the world and Rand first regardless of the cost and apologizing for the need to break a good woman in pursuit of her mission. In addition we have multiple povs highlighting how she thinks and none of it is the thoughts of a selfish person. The point you make above of her possibly not wanting to kill the men above shows just how twisted your logic is on the topic and how far you are reaching.

 

Lastly just because multiple posters jumped in to that old thread in support of our patience and to point out flaws in your thinking doesn't make us right, but it should at least give you pause enough to rethink your position.

 

Never did see you take a crack at this btw...

 

Vardarmus, on 23 July 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

 

Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you, agreeing with me?

 

Mr Ares, on 24 July 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm agreeing with the conclusion you should be making, based on your premises. Cadsuane is not rude to people she doesn't need to be rude to (your own assessment of her interactions with AS). Her rudeness is not done because she has no other way of interacting with people, nor is it because she has no other way of getting them to do as she wants. It is a specific tactic. For a specific purpose. And when she uses it, it is because it is the best - maybe even only - tactic available to her. If I need you to do X, and I cannot get you to do X by being polite, then I need to be rude to you. It is justified. (And I said need X, not merely want X.) So the conclusion you should be reaching is that Cadsuane is justified in what she does. But you shy away from that, because it would involve admitting you were wrong. Yet you also don't change your premises, so have merely reach an illogical conclusion.

[Vardar]

Mate you admitted flat out that she only uses bullying situationally as a tactic, if she doesn't bully people accept in cases when she needs to, then she isn't a bully! As for selfish not once did you provide an ounce of evidence showing hat to be the case.

Go back to the thread, I did.

On the flip side we provided quotes showing her putting the world and Rand first regardless of the cost and apologizing for the need to break a good woman in pursuit of her mission. In addition we have multiple povs highlighting how she thinks and none of it is the thoughts of a selfish person.

 

 

The point you make above of her possibly not wanting to kill the men above shows just how twisted your logic is on the topic and how far you are reaching.

Actually what I provided above was an example. I was pointing out that you cannot possibly know the meaning behind someone’s actions, you can only assume. There’s no reaching, it’s a clear point right there. In fact, your entire argument about her showing compassion in the last debate revolved around one scene with her, that’s it. Her being sorry for having to break a good woman for Rand. 1 situation doesn’t make a character.

 

 

Lastly just because multiple posters jumped in to that old thread in support of our patience and to point out flaws in your thinking doesn't make us right, but it should at least give you pause enough to rethink your position.

Just to prove your bias, just as many, if not more jumped in to support my side. Also, quite a few jumped in and said we both had valid points. Apparently your bias doesn’t allow you to see that.

 

Never did see you take a crack at this btw...

 

There was nothing to take a crack at. He deliberately misquoted me in a petty attempt to prove his point. 1^st off, he has the audacity to presume he understands my inner workings better than I do. He doesn’t. My saying she isn’t rude to cowed people, or people she is smart enough to understand won’t respond by no means creates the conclusion that she isn’t a rude person by nature. In fact, the exact opposite. I’ve said from the 1^st page we began debating on that she is not stupid, and the smartest bullies understand sometimes bullying won’t work.

 

I never said she was rude because it was all she knew, I said she was rude because it’s how she prefers to deal with people, she’s arrogant, and full of herself (from being the most powerful single force in the world for so long). It’s impossible, given the scope we’re working with here to make a ludicrous definite statement that it’s the best way, since that’s all she uses the majority of the time. It’s a book series, if things work, you can say it’s the best way, but it doesn’t make it correct. The characters suck at communication in this series, are we to assume it’s the best way to go about their lives? No. We’re not stupid, we understand lack of communication has lead to many issues. It’s asinine to believe it’s the best way just because that’s the way it occurred .

And lastly, my personal code of conduct and beliefs hold that it is NEVER justified to be rude to someone. Now, here again using your own “logic” I could say, numerous people entered that thread agreeing with me and understand my point on this, however Mr Ares and yourself for some reason refuse to accept that. So instead of focusing on my point, you instead attempt to justify her rudeness, which still doesn’t disprove anything. She’s a bully. You, Mr Ares, others, Luckers, whoever have all admitted that she using bullying, in your words “when she needs too” however case in point, the times she uses rudeness FAR outweighs the times she uses other tactics. FAR FAR FAR. Just using numbers, if she’s rude and a bully most of the time, it’s logically assumed she’s rude and a bully. No, instead your side claims that Rude and Bullying actions the majority of the time don’t make you rude or a bully, which is beyond ludicrous. It’s so asinine as to be unbelievable. Regardless, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we are not going to agree. While I will admit my bias of Cads makes me hate her irrationally even if she does some good things, you and your party cannot even admit bullying and being rude the majority of the time makes you rude and a bully. You refuse to even see your own bias.

 

In short, good day sir. If you have further questions, please check the thread before accusing me of not answering them again, and if you still wonder I’ll gladly respond. AGAIN.

[Suttree]

Just to prove your bias, just as many, if not more jumped in to support my side. Also, quite a few jumped in and said we both had valid points. Apparently your bias doesn’t allow you to see that.

 

That is flat out not true. All it takes is going back and reading the thread and it is plain for anyone to see. If you keep disputing it I am more than happy to go back and pull the quotes.

 

As for proof you never, not once showed her to be selfish. I know you attempted to twist the meaning of word to support your bias but you did not provide an ounce of truth. I pull quotes for you constantly when you ask for proof. All I ask is you do the same. As to her compassion you gloss over the facts per usual. There was more than one scene given showing her compassion in propping up Samitsu's confidence, her talking to Rand when he was injured in the fog, etc. All I ask is you go back and read and just try to see the right of things. I think it will be quite eye opening if you can put aside your emotions and view it rationally. It is obvious the debate is making you somewhat eggy and that wasn't my intent so I will step back.

[Vardar]

Just to prove your bias, just as many, if not more jumped in to support my side. Also, quite a few jumped in and said we both had valid points. Apparently your bias doesn’t allow you to see that.

 

That is flat out not true. All it takes is going back and reading the thread and it is plain for anyone to see. If you keep disputing it I am more than happy to go back and pull the quotes.

 

 

Go back and count please. You've obviously missed them, since I don't believe you'd lie outright.On t he first page this started, there's 3.

[Suttree]

Just to prove your bias, just as many, if not more jumped in to support my side. Also, quite a few jumped in and said we both had valid points. Apparently your bias doesn’t allow you to see that.

 

That is flat out not true. All it takes is going back and reading the thread and it is plain for anyone to see. If you keep disputing it I am more than happy to go back and pull the quotes.

 

 

Go back and count please. You've obviously missed them, since I don't believe you'd lie outright.On t he first page this started, there's 3.

 

Oh I have. I was referring to people jumping into comment specifcally on our debate. Not to just ones who are pro or anti Cads for whatever reason. They can be anti-Cads/AS(which represents a large portion of the fandom) and still be very far away from your stance.

[mike hunt's here]

hey so...bea arthur or meryl streep? haha

[Knivy]

Bea 100%.

[Mr Ares]

Mate you admitted flat out that she only uses bullying situationally as a tactic, if she doesn't bully people accept in cases when she needs to, then she isn't a bully! As for selfish not once did you provide an ounce of evidence showing hat to be the case.

Go back to the thread, I did.

On the flip side we provided quotes showing her putting the world and Rand first regardless of the cost and apologizing for the need to break a good woman in pursuit of her mission. In addition we have multiple povs highlighting how she thinks and none of it is the thoughts of a selfish person.

 

 

The point you make above of her possibly not wanting to kill the men above shows just how twisted your logic is on the topic and how far you are reaching.

Actually what I provided above was an example. I was pointing out that you cannot possibly know the meaning behind someone’s actions, you can only assume. There’s no reaching, it’s a clear point right there. In fact, your entire argument about her showing compassion in the last debate revolved around one scene with her, that’s it. Her being sorry for having to break a good woman for Rand. 1 situation doesn’t make a character.

 

 

Lastly just because multiple posters jumped in to that old thread in support of our patience and to point out flaws in your thinking doesn't make us right, but it should at least give you pause enough to rethink your position.

Just to prove your bias, just as many, if not more jumped in to support my side. Also, quite a few jumped in and said we both had valid points. Apparently your bias doesn’t allow you to see that.

 

Never did see you take a crack at this btw...

 

There was nothing to take a crack at. He deliberately misquoted me in a petty attempt to prove his point. 1^st off, he has the audacity to presume he understands my inner workings better than I do. He doesn’t. My saying she isn’t rude to cowed people, or people she is smart enough to understand won’t respond by no means creates the conclusion that she isn’t a rude person by nature. In fact, the exact opposite.

That she avoids bullying people when to do so would be counterproductive is one thing. To refrain from being rude to people when it would be neither positive nor negative is another. Not being rude to cowed people does support the conclusion she isn't rude by nature. She is only rude when there is a benefit to being rude. That indicates either rudeness is not her nature or that she is willing to go counter to her nature unless there is a specific gain to be made from acting according to her nature.

 

I never said she was rude because it was all she knew, I said she was rude because it’s how she prefers to deal with people, she’s arrogant, and full of herself (from being the most powerful single force in the world for so long).

If it was how she preferred to deal with people, she would surely use it on those "cowed people". If there are occasions where she will gain the greatest benefit from being rude, then rudeness is reasonable. Where rudeness is counterproductive, lack of rudeness is the best course of action. The key points to focus on are the neutral times, times when there is neither gain nor loss from being rude. If she is rude those times, it demonstrates your point, that she is rude by nature. If she is not rude those times, it demonstrates that your point is flawed. And, as you said, she was not rude on those occasions, because she didn't need to be. A point at odds with your conclusion. Which was my point. You reach conclusions at odds with your own arguments, which is illogical. Either you should rethink your arguments or you should admit you were wrong, yet you do neither.

 

So instead of focusing on my point, you instead attempt to justify her rudeness, which still doesn’t disprove anything.

It does. It disproves the notion that she bullies people because she is a bully by nature, as opposed to someone who uses bullying as a specific tactic to achieve goals. Quantity of examples proves nothing. What matters is motivation. Your examples do not counter the point because they ignore motivation. Even if she does use bullying as a tactic most of the time, it doesn't make her a bully by nature, because she might simply be in situations where most of the time it is the best course of action. The idea that rudeness is never justified would not address that point. In truth, rudeness never being justified neither supports nor refutes the argument that Cadsuane is a bully by nature. And even if you believe that, it's not really something we can logically debate. Most of us believe differently - rudeness can be justified. Whether it can or can't says nothing as to Cadsuane's nature, it merely informs your negative opinion of her.

 

While I will admit my bias of Cads makes me hate her irrationally even if she does some good things, you and your party cannot even admit bullying and being rude the majority of the time makes you rude and a bully.

If your viewpoint is irrational, stop trying to debate it. If you provide no justifications, we cannot debate your viewpoint. If you say you hate her, we can accept that. If you say you hate her because of X, then if X is untrue then you have no basis for your hatred. By putting forward justifications of your hatred of her that can be debated, you really only create a headache for yourself. If we disagree that she fits the definition of a bully that you provide, then we undermine your stated reason for disliking her. If your stated reason is not why you actually dislike her, merely an after the fact justification then attempts to address your logic are doomed to fail. If your dislike of her is irrational, we are probably better off agreeing to disagree.

[Adam Underdahl]

My main problem with Cadsuane is her pride. Her way is the right way. She pushes, prods, and pokes people into doing things her way. In some ways she is as bad as Rand.