common complaints

[Manethral]

do people here get bothered by the things regularly mentioned negatively about the series?

the main complaints seem to be the over description of what every person is wearing to the minute detail and the sexist comments (both men and women) all the time.

it used to annoy me, woman rolling eyes at everything a man said, man complains with steroetypical response etc. but i got used to it.

how bout you lot?

(i'm not complaining, i love the series )

[Luckers]

Mmm. The one that annoys me the most is the one about Rand being mistreated by Cadsuane. Hero-worship can be so ugly.

[Wonga]

Yeah. While I agree with most of it (The women being [insert appropriate word here.] And the miniscule detail- maybe if RJ hadn't spent so much time on the clothing he could have included more of the Lan/Nynaeve saga in the first book.)but it does get a bit repetive.

 

I try to search for similar topics before creating a new one.

 

The hero worship I agree with totally. I hate it when people bash another character simply because they oppose their favourites.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Asmodean. He should have written a note.

 

:D

[Luckers]

Heh. Dude, he could have screamed 'Oh my god, Graendal, please don't kill me here in Caemlyn following Rand killing your co-conspiritator Rahvin' and people would still not believe it.

[Trib4l]

Course not. I'd have looked right at it and said how easy it would have been to mistake Bela for Graendal as a result of how surprised he was...

[Graendals favourite]

I'm annoyed by the complaints about the dress descriptions and length and things evolving slowly. Without that we wouldn't have what we have. Because of all of that we know the world so well, which we wouldn't if RJ didn't bring us to what the pov character is seeing and feeling. Also, because of all the detail, which is obviously put down carefully, there is so much one can look into.

 

For example, without the dress descriptions, we wouldn't know Graendal was looking in on Mat when he went there with his army in Maerone in LoC. The detail also gives a lot of room for RJ to hide important stuff in plain sight, and he has to do this consistantly throughout the series for it to work.

[Kadere]

I get annoyed by a lot of stuff. I kinda get annoyed with myself for getting annoyed so much.

 

I get annoyed over the constant bashing of the female characters just because they're not subserviant to Rand, I get annoyed when people say things that I know are clearly wrong from the book, I get annoyed listening to the podcast and wishing someone on there would read the series once in a while so we didn't get so much "I believe..." and "I think it was..." to the point that I get so annoyed I have to go on to there thread and post a big long quote or two.

 

Yeah, there are a lot of things that annoy me, but it's ok. This is a very large website with a lot of members, and it's the annoyances which make the debates and discussions so much fun. Everyone has their own opinion or interpretation. And of course I love to write up large quotes to prove people wrong. :P

[edman]

I'm biggest complaint is that I don't think we'll get to see much of Shara... The chapter in the BWB on it makes the culture sound really interesting. I've just started reading KoD so if there is any Shara in there please don't spoil!

[Mad Season]

I don't get mad at Cadsuane for abusing Rand. I get mad at Rand because he refuses to balefire her already.

[CowardsLiveLonger]

The only annoyances I have are all my own fault, when I confuse one persons name with another or forget a name or something then I have to backtrack through the book to where it was I thought I saw it just to find out it was a completely different person or place, so I dont really have any real complaints about the series at all..........

[DragonSpawn]

My main complaint is Rand's inherent weakness. He has periods where he asserts his strength but in overall he tolerates way too much for someone who supposedly should be the most powerful channeler of mankind, Ruler of most of Randland, and messiah of the Aeil.

For example he lacks the maturity of other rulers and leaders he tries or is styled after. In a world where the most powerful, dangerous and manipulative people are most often women his weakness in seeing their blood spilt when necessary has cost him already too much in my opinion. There is a difference between mercy and foolishness.

The most successfull conquerors were those that showed the least weakness. Take Genghis Khan for example, if the town surrendered without bloodshed or rebellion they could leave peacefully as if nothing happened and continue their lives. However the most famous example is Baghdad, when the Ruler refused to surrender the city and even insulted the Khan, after breaching the city and conquerring it, he had almost all the inhabitants rounded up and killed as an example. One of the greatest and most culturally advanced cities in the world lost nigh 90% of its population in a single day for its folly, men, women and children. This led most cities to surrender as soon as they heard the word mongol and army in one sentence.

Other greats such as Attila the Hun, Alexander the Great, and Alaric used the similar however most often less brutal lessons to unruly people.

All those had no magical powers, or armies with magical powers, and conquered and did bigger feats then Rand achieved in a fantasy novel. If Rand had the right motivation and serious attitude that only the last battle matters and all that try to stumble in your way with their maneuvering even if not belonging to the DO, are through their actions malefactors of the DO and need to be discouraged or eliminated from their course of action.

[Luckers]

Whilst there is a valid point in there about Rand's unwillingness to kill women, the rest strikes me as wrong.

 

Those others all burnt out fast. They also were in it only to conquer. Rand is in it to unite the Light against the Dark. It would be foolish for him to go about killing great swathes of people, as that only weakens him when it comes to his real goal.

 

That being said i think this thread is about what annoys you in the theories, not the books.

 

For example, without the dress descriptions, we wouldn't know Graendal was looking in on Mat when he went there with his army in Maerone in LoC. The detail also gives a lot of room for RJ to hide important stuff in plain sight, and he has to do this consistantly throughout the series for it to work.

 

When was this? And what happened? It must have gone completely over my head.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, it isn't something that is particularly easy to notice. In A Different Dance (LoC), when Mat is looking over Maerone and his soldiers, he notes:

A handful of others mixed with the members of the Band. Here a lean, fork-bearded Kandori with a moonstone the size of his thumbnail in one earlobe and silver chains across the chest of his red coat, there a copper-skinned Domani woman, though wearing a modest blue dress, with quick eyes and gemmed rings on all her fingers, elsewhere a Taraboner in a conical flat-topped blue cap, thick moustache hidden behind a transparent veil.

Then, in the very next chapter, Threads Woven of Shadow, we have:

She joined him at the railing, smiling at the display below. Her thin blue Domani gown clung and more than hinted. As usual she had a ring with different stones on every finger, four or five gem-encrusted bracelets on each wrist, and a wide collar of huge sapphires snugged around the gown’s high neck. He did not know about such things, but he suspected hours had gone into arranging those sun-gold curls touching her shoulders, and the moondrops seemingly scattered through them; there was something about their casualness that hinted at precision.

It seems to me to be plain that they are the same woman. Especially since Graendal already had her streith gown, which she wore has worn at every other occasion that I remember.

 

My suspicion is that Graendal set up Melindhra in order for her to learn about events near Rand. I do not believe in group spies, and the others don't make sense. Perhaps Rahvin, Moghedien and Graendal meant to brake whatever was coming with Lanfear's plan; it would be sensible, and Rahvin certainly was certain he could finish Rand alone. She also later then arranged for Noal to be glued onto Mat, using the gholam that was left over from Sammael.

[rd2000]

The only thing that annoys me is when people don't proofread their posts before posting. 8)

[Cybertrolloc]

Seaine Sedai, Senein Sedai, Seirin Sedai...ug!

[Luckers]

My suspicion is that Graendal set up Melindhra in order for her to learn about events near Rand. I do not believe in group spies, and the others don't make sense. Perhaps Rahvin, Moghedien and Graendal meant to brake whatever was coming with Lanfear's plan; it would be sensible, and Rahvin certainly was certain he could finish Rand alone. She also later then arranged for Noal to be glued onto Mat, using the gholam that was left over from Sammael.

 

Thats actually a good point, for concider that Lanfear mentions that someone else was keeping an eye on Rand. She suspected it was Demandred or Moghedian, though i see no reason it couldn't have been Graendal.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, and there's things that support this. Melindhra reported nightly in Cairhien, at least, since Mat confessed how she nightly went to look at the river. She could not have been Lanfear's creature, since she only heard about Rand and Aviendha through Kadere. On the other hand, for Graendal, informing Lanfear's information source about what all Maidens generally knew but didn't really talk about to others, would have been greatly advantageous to try to prevent misplay on Lanfear's part. It even worked, though partly thanks to Moiraine. Anyone Forsaken who held Melindhra would have easily guessed Kadere was Lanfear's.

 

Rahvin would not really do, because at the same time as Melindhra first approached Mat, he tried to kill Mat with the Darkhounds, at least according to Lanfear. And would Sammael be terribly concerned that Rand attack Rahvin instead of him?

 

Of course, I'm not certain the Illianer dagger killing Mat would be enough to revert Rand from attacking Caemlyn. Only that both Caemlyn and Illian need to be attacked. The news of Morgase's misfortune had conveniently reached Cairhien by Mat, who was of course influenced by the same Melindhra, who took orders I think by Graendal.

 

All of this would mean, that of the four nominal conspirators, Lanfear, Sammael and Rahvin would have been set up with disputes with Rand, as for what comes to Melindhra. A much better situation than wondering what Lanfear has up her sleeve? At that, wouldn't Melindhra and Mat's usefulness have been at an end, and time be to cover traces?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Melindhra is certainly somebody's creature, but it seems more likely that she's Sam's than anyone else.

 

What we see throughout the books is that the Forsaken are pretty careful not to step on each other's toes. Each has his own sphere of influence and the others ( by and large ) leave that area alone.

 

One of Sam's spheres was the Aiel. He's the one behind all the Shaido nonsense, and I think ( would have to comb through the books to be sure ) Melindhra was a Shaido who chose to side with her Maiden society rather than her tribe, as did a number of others.

 

Since the assassination was meant to point to him, and since the dagger was authentic Illianer, and since Melindhra was decidedly Aiel, I figure Sam is the safe bet as her controller.

[Guest Majsju]

One of Sam's spheres was the Aiel. He's the one behind all the Shaido nonsense, and I think ( would have to comb through the books to be sure ) Melindhra was a Shaido who chose to side with her Maiden society rather than her tribe, as did a number of others.

 

Except everything Asmo and Lanfear did in TSR, including Asmo putting the Dragons on Couladin...

 

And the idea to have someone near Rand, ie Mat killed by a DF with obvious connections to Sammael came from Rahvin.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, anyone can get a dagger of any sort. It's not as if Melindhra couldn't have used an Aiel knife if it wasn't meant to be an obvious lead on Sammael.

 

However, Rahvin already tried it with the Darkhounds, which may be something of a connection to Sammael too, perhaps, don't know, at least he's known to have used them before. However, this was really just at the same time as Melindhra got down to business with Mat, it makes no sense to make a considerable effort to kill someone and try to have a spy planted the same time. Perhaps also Rahvin had figured out it was Mat who spoke to him about Elayne earlier, which would have given him extra reason to kill exactly him. Anyway, these things happened directly after the initial Tea Party in the prologue. This makes it less likely Moghedien had a hand there, so early. The Tea Party had after all taken place in Caemlyn, not T'a'r.

 

That brings me to think that Moghedien would have likely been most happy to see Lanfear die, as she was her main rival in T'a'r. None of the others come near their skills there. Perhaps her part of the deal was to keep an eye on what Lanfear was up to.

 

I have to mention, that since Graendal tied Arad Doman around her finger, and Moghedien was meddling with Taraboner politics at least before the super girls showed up, their collaboration might have gone on for some time. After all, insanely Tarabon and Arad Doman were fighting each other, as well as being in civil war themselves. It would make sense for the two to coordinate things. There's also something in how Moghedien learned of the cache in Ebou Dar, but I can't now remember what I last thought about it. In the beginning of LoC Graendal knew Sammael was searching for one, and Moghedien had sent the two Black sisters in the hunt. Later Graendal was watching Carridin through Noal. And then Moridin happened by when it had been found. Both troups followed the girls to the treasure. Dunno.

[Luckers]

Wow... this is quite exciting... do you realise how long its been since anyone had any fresh ideas relating to that section in the book. Between the Moiraine and Lanfear being stilled conversations and the Asmodean conversations its been discussed up the wazoo.

 

Yea, anyone can get a dagger of any sort. It's not as if Melindhra couldn't have used an Aiel knife if it wasn't meant to be an obvious lead on Sammael.

 

The dagger is interesting... it seems too basic for Graendal, too subtle for Sammael (recall Rand's comments about how Sammael likes to bait people). Lanfear never utilized others, and Rahvin... well it sort of fits Rahvin, look at how he plotted against Elayne in tDR.

 

But concider this... what if both were to work. Rand just recieves information that Morgase is dead, and starts plotting for Caemlyn, then Mat is killed seemingly by Sammael. The attack against Caemlyn happens first removing Rahvin and breaking the Four, then the attack on Illian would have happened without the Four removing Sammael. Moghedian suspects Lanfear has no intention of joining the link against Rand, so either she's the culprit--which is unlikely, given her actions in attacking Rand--or as seems likely, the fact that she is not going to act against Rand is known to the real culprit.

 

Rahvin and Sammael are removed, and all of it seemingly at the hand of Rand... nothing can be traced to Graendal (following graendals favourites logic with who was behind Melindrah and that she was watching rand) who no one could blame for not coming to Sammael's aid because of the attack on Rahvin, and how that threw off plans. Moreover, Graendal herself is never in the line of fire.

 

But she is around to watch it all go down, so that if for instance Rahvin kills Rand she can act like she had every intention of following through with the plan, and she runs into Asmodean, and poof. Dead Asmodean, and a nice little days work for Graendal.

 

This seems very much like Graendal to me, she takes consolidated steps, ones that are with as little risk to herself as is possible. Recall the comments about those that think her their ally end up dead with no one making a connection to her... and all the rest.

 

However, Rahvin already tried it with the Darkhounds

 

How do you know that was Rahvin? I never looked into it myself, so im just curious, not questioning.

[Cybertrolloc]

We don't. We just know that's what Rand thinks he heard Lanfear tell him provided RJ wrote that scene carefully enough ;)

[Luckers]

Ah thats right. I remember now.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I've thought Lanfear was speaking the truth as far as the Rahvin goes. Rand and Lanfear have a long discussion on him in Gateways, and it to me seems unlikely she'd have had a reason to frame Rahvin especially since it's rather unlikely she was the one who sent them.

But she is around to watch it all go down, so that if for instance Rahvin kills Rand she can act like she had every intention of following through with the plan, and she runs into Asmodean, and poof. Dead Asmodean, and a nice little days work for Graendal.

Quite so, quite a day's work. True, and such a flexible plan also kind of requires her to watch how things go down. She can win whatever happens, but she needs to know where to step.

 

I've been thinking a bit, and I think Graendal would have had no need to wait by the garden and see what Asmo is going to do. Asmo was going nowhere, so she could just as well go a little off, prepare a reversed weave of compulsion, and then used it to have Asmo wander of alone. Musicians like to play whether the audience is listening or not, since when was that anything for Asmo, and Graendal is supposed to be an expert in that kind of very subtle compulsion, as Sammael comments, the kind where the target never realises his thoughts have been bended.