one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic' date=' although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J[/quote']

 

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

 

Very nice counter theory and explanation. I must counter that your explanation hinges on the fact that she had a vision that included Asmodean on the docks and she deduced him as being necessary to be there or her 1/3 chance would be shattered. I must therefore point out that your 1/3 chance is moot because Asmodean would have been there in all three of her visions, so she would deduce his presence was not necessary for her 1 chance to work. The only way I can follow your logic is if Asmo was not present in her two visions of failure and present only in her vision of success.

 

That's a really good point.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Good job on the explanation. I can follow that logic' date=' although I still object on the grounds that the letter seems to indicate she understands why Rand is keeping Asmodean close, and accepts it as necessary, even if she does not approve.

 

I don't believe that she would kill his only teacher. Also, are you going with the idea that she used a finnwish to get Asmo?

J[/quote']

 

Then why not bump him off right before' date=' or the night before she went to face Lanfear?

 

She had no assurance she would be in any shape to take on Asmo even in his weakened state, she did know she was gonna have to tackle Lanfear. So why not get Asmo in his sleep? Or make "arrangements" with another Aes Sedai. If she was SO determined to put Asmo down as you insist, then she would have been able to make some backup arrangements in case she couldn't get to him after her scene with Lanfear. She only knew that she was going to fight Lanfear, and that she would be held captive aftwerwards. She had no way of knowing she would be in any condition to go after Asmo. If I knew Mike Tyson and I would be fighting tommorrow morning, and I wanted to do away with a different guy, I would take out the easier target first, Mike would still be there in the morning no matter what I did tonight.

 

When it all comes down, you have a theory. You have assigned one person as the killer, and are trying to make up all kinds of things that had to happen to explain that person as the killer. All good and well, but I can't even believe the motive for it all that you have presented.[/quote']

 

At this time, I'm not arguing for or against Moiraine as the killer but addressing a single question from rd2000. He asked why, if Moiraine is the killer, she wouldn't have killed Asmodean earlier. I'm just attempting to show why, if Moiraine is the killer, she could not have killed Asmodean earlier.

 

Very nice counter theory and explanation. I must counter that your explanation hinges on the fact that she had a vision that included Asmodean on the docks and she deduced him as being necessary to be there or her 1/3 chance would be shattered. I must therefore point out that your 1/3 chance is moot because Asmodean would have been there in all three of her visions, so she would deduce his presence was not necessary for her 1 chance to work. The only way I can follow your logic is if Asmo was not present in her two visions of failure and present only in her vision of success.

 

That's a really good point.

J

 

Please see immediately above, some out of order posts.

[rd2000]

I was making my point in reference to your theory and the one that assumes Moiraine KNEW beforehand she had to kill Asmo. If your theory assumes that Moiraine found out Asmo had to die AFTER she went thru the doorway with Lanfear, then your points are very valid. If, however, she knew that Asmo would have to die, and, as you say, that he had to be present at the docks for her vision of a good outcome to come true, then I stress that she would have planned for Asmo's demise through means other than her own hands. Individually, your theory and John's hold some merit, however they mostly cancel out each other if yours is used to support his. Your theory states Asmo had to survive the docks scene, his states that Moiraine killed Asmo with pre-determination and....prejudice. I maintain that if she knew he HAD to live up until she went thru the doorway (and we KNOW she knew she was going to be held captive thereafter)Then she would have made positive, almost foolproof plans to dispose of Asmo some other way, not her doing it herself. Notice that I am only saying that Moiraine couldn't have killed Asmo herself, not that she wasn't responsible (a simple pigeon to known darkfriends with Forsaken connections would almost assure a strong attempt on Asmo)

 

In effect, your theory only helps my point and hurts John's by taking away motive and opportunity pre-captivity. To assume she knew she would be held captive and also that she knew she could get free long enough to kill Asmo and RETURN to captivity seems a far stretch. To think Moiraine knew beforehand that she could use Finn "wishes" and plan on using them while in captivity to kill Asmo is also hard to believe.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I don't think I ever said that Moiraine knew Asmodean had to die and was planning out how to kill him. I usually take the stance that the opportunity presented itself and she took it.

 

Regardless of that, how was Moiraine going to make other arrangements? She needed to keep the people immediately around her unaware of what was about to happen so that they wouldn't interfere. Unless she wrote more letters than the two that we know about, she couldn't and didn't ask one of her companions to do it. Having another Aes Sedai do it was also out of the question. For 1, a lot of them still appeared to be in denial that the Foresaken were even loose, so she would first have to convince them that Jasin Natael was Asmodean. Then you have the fact that she was a fugitive of the Tower with no real information concerning who she could trust. She couldn't just go to an agent of the Tower and have them send a message. Any attempt to do so and that the message would likely end up in the Tower as there may not have been sufficient time for Siuan to have made contact with all of the agents and gotten the networks redirected. She knew that the Tower was split and that Elaida was in charge, so the usual communications channels wouldn't have been available to her. In the entire time that she was in the waste, she had no access to Ajah agents to handle messages. Even if she found a pigeon that could "home" to the Tower, no one had pigeons that could "home" back to her as she was moving around. A pigeon can only be used one way. To deliver its message, it flies home. Someone else needs to take it to the point where messages can be sent from as it won't fly back on its own.

 

Saying that she would have made other arrangements sounds good and logical, but you need to figure out the logistics of it before making it a possibility.

[rd2000]

I was listing it as a possiblity as something for YOU to have as an explanation. I maintain that Moiraine did not kill Asmo, therefore no pigeons, no wishes to kill Asmo, etc. I am not going to make your arguements for you.

[Guest cwestervelt]

rd. No one is asking you too make arguments for me. I was responding to specific objections that you made to Moiraine being the killer. You said that she would have killed him earlier. I responded with reasons why she could not do that. You said she would have made other arrangements. I responded with specific reasons why she couldn't have. That isn't asking you to make my arguments for me.

[rd2000]

I guess I got caught up with dissecting your theories I didn't make myself clear. I do not believe Moiraine killed, or was involved in the death of Asmodean. My point in saying I wasn't going to make your arguments for you was only meant to stress that I could see no logical way that Moiraine could meet motive,opportunity, and ability. I was exploring those possiblities when you countered that I needed to make them logical. I honestly can't because it just doesn't come together in my mind and no one has been able to convince me that Moiraine could meet the criteria to make her a likely candidate.

[LordPerrin]

Hey everyone! I'm new to the message board, although I've visited this site many times. I just thought I would join in the fun, especially now that I am re-reading (listening actually) to all of the books and I just finished listening to Fires of Heaven. Anyway, there are 78 pages to this thread and the thought of going through all of them was too much. So if somone has thrown this possibility out already then, 1,000 pardons.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe Lews Therin killed Asmodean? It seems to me like "Lews Therin" has become increasingly "alive" and maybe somehow he "took over" Rand, looked like him, and killed Asmodean. We all know that the Forsaken can change guises, and maybe Lews Therin temporarily took over Rand's mind/body and killed Asmodean.

 

Not saying I'm right, but it would explain two things:

 

1. Rand not sensing the channeling, because it was him/Lews doing it.

 

2. Asmodean's shock/amazement at the killer. Never did he expect to see Lews Therin's face again.

 

Thoughts??

[Samitsu]

Hey everyone! I'm new to the message board' date=' although I've visited this site many times. I just thought I would join in the fun, especially now that I am re-reading (listening actually) to all of the books and I just finished listening to Fires of Heaven. Anyway, there are 78 pages to this thread and the thought of going through all of them was too much. So if somone has thrown this possibility out already then, 1,000 pardons.

 

Has anyone thought that maybe Lews Therin killed Asmodean? It seems to me like "Lews Therin" has become increasingly "alive" and maybe somehow he "took over" Rand, looked like him, and killed Asmodean. We all know that the Forsaken can change guises, and maybe Lews Therin temporarily took over Rand's mind/body and killed Asmodean.

 

Not saying I'm right, but it would explain two things:

 

1. Rand not sensing the channeling, because it was him/Lews doing it.

 

2. Asmodean's shock/amazement at the killer. Never did he expect to see Lews Therin's face again.

 

Thoughts??[/quote']

 

This cant be it, RJ said that we should 100% know who killed him by WH, and theres nothing about LTT taking over until KOD

[Kadere]

Actually we're suppose to know 100% by PoD, but yeah.

[Bob T Dwarf]

CW -

 

I too had determined to forsake posting in this thread, but your thoughtful presentation has provoked me ( in a good way ) into responding.

 

I think we fantasy readers tend to be wishful types. We start out wide-eyed and innocent. Then we get a feel for the story, compile our list of favorite characters, and start compiling a wishlist of ways that those characters can contribute prominently to the story. Thereafter, as we continue along, our first reaction to each new mystery is to see if we can fit it to our favorite hero or villain as the case may be. Which is why we all have so many different opinions about who Asmo's killer might be. We each subconciously project our favorite hero or villain into the mystery and find ways to support our wish for them to take center stage. Simple human nature.

 

Now, I don't believe that Jordan has deliberately lied to us. I think he truly believes that the killer should be obvious directly from the narrative. Not from what we as readers hope, or wish for this or that character, but strictly from the words he put on the page.

 

In this, as in many other things he believes about this series, he is quite obviously wrong, but that doesn't get any of us closer to solving the mystery.

 

Moiraine being the killer hinges on a number of things:

 

1. She has to have a need for Asmo to die.

 

2. She had to have seen him only in the version of the outcomes at the docks where she stood any chance of success.

 

3. She has to have no other means to kill him than to do it herself.

 

4. The Finns have to have a way to place her in that hallway and then yank her back again.

 

None of those things has ever been established in the books. Not preceding Asmo's death nor in any subsequent volume.

 

If she truly needed Asmo dead, that's what Lan is for. Moiraine will do whatever is necessary, proscribed or not. A little Compulsion, "If our bond should ever break, kill Jasin Natael before you do anything else." A little more Compulsion, "Only remember my previous instruction if our bond should break." With that taken care of, Asmo's death is assured.

 

Asmo's, "You? No!", tells us that whomever he confronted behind that door was a complete and alarming surprise. Moiraine would have been a surprise alright, but Asmo wouldn't have been alarmed to see her. Lan rode out of Cairhein on horseback. He's nowhere near Caemlyn.

 

That leaves only someone Asmo would know wanted him dead. A known ( to Asmo ) Darkfriend or one of the Forsaken.

[Jedimuppet]

CW -

 

I too had determined to forsake posting in this thread' date=' but your thoughtful presentation has provoked me ( in a good way ) into responding.

 

I think we fantasy readers tend to be wishful types. We start out wide-eyed and innocent. Then we get a feel for the story, compile our list of favorite characters, and start compiling a wishlist of ways that those characters can contribute prominently to the story. Thereafter, as we continue along, our first reaction to each new mystery is to see if we can fit it to our favorite hero or villain as the case may be. Which is why we all have so many different opinions about who Asmo's killer might be. We each subconciously project our favorite hero or villain into the mystery and find ways to support our wish for them to take center stage. Simple human nature.

 

Now, I don't believe that Jordan has deliberately lied to us. I think he truly believes that the killer should be obvious directly from the narrative. Not from what we as readers hope, or wish for this or that character, but strictly from the words he put on the page.

 

In this, as in many other things he believes about this series, he is quite obviously wrong, but that doesn't get any of us closer to solving the mystery.

 

Moiraine being the killer hinges on a number of things:

 

1. She has to have a need for Asmo to die.

 

2. She [i']had[/i] to have seen him only in the version of the outcomes at the docks where she stood any chance of success.

 

3. She has to have no other means to kill him than to do it herself.

 

4. The Finns have to have a way to place her in that hallway and then yank her back again.

 

None of those things has ever been established in the books. Not preceding Asmo's death nor in any subsequent volume.

 

If she truly needed Asmo dead, that's what Lan is for. Moiraine will do whatever is necessary, proscribed or not. A little Compulsion, "If our bond should ever break, kill Jasin Natael before you do anything else." A little more Compulsion, "Only remember my previous instruction if our bond should break." With that taken care of, Asmo's death is assured.

 

Asmo's, "You? No!", tells us that whomever he confronted behind that door was a complete and alarming surprise. Moiraine would have been a surprise alright, but Asmo wouldn't have been alarmed to see her. Lan rode out of Cairhein on horseback. He's nowhere near Caemlyn.

 

That leaves only someone Asmo would know wanted him dead. A known ( to Asmo ) Darkfriend or one of the Forsaken.

 

I'm glad to see you're allowing it could be a Forsake, now.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've always allowed that it could be.

 

I've yet to see anybody present convincing arguments that it was. Everybody, so far, is basing their case on what they wish happened, not what few facts ( can what an author writes in a work of fiction be considered a fact? ) are presented in the books.

 

I've seen a lot of wonderfully inventive theories, but nothing that has been backed up by what Jordan actually put on the page.

[DragonSpawn]

80 pages......... you people are sick :P

[Jedimuppet]

I've always allowed that it could be.

 

I've yet to see anybody present convincing arguments that it was. Everybody' date=' so far, is basing their case on what they wish happened, not what few facts ( can what an author writes in a work of fiction be considered a fact? ) are presented in the books.

 

I've seen a lot of wonderfully inventive theories, but nothing that has been backed up by what Jordan actually put on the page.[/quote']

 

I've not found your suppositions to be based on what he actually wrote. I think most of the cohesive arguments I've seen are based on a view of events that don't contradict those in the book, and coincide with what the person thinks RJ may have been thinking.

 

You're suggesting a different methodology?

J

[rd2000]

If he's not, then I am.

 

Let's start a post. Only put in quotated references found in the books that we think have something to do with proving/disproving that someone is a likely candidate for the killing of Asmodean. Of course, that will also start debates on the validity of some of those posts so maybe getting the admin to make an "Asmodean" forum might even be called for.

[Jedimuppet]

If he's not' date=' then I am.

 

Let's start a post. Only put in quotated references found in the books that we think have something to do with proving/disproving that someone is a likely candidate for the killing of Asmodean. Of course, that will also start debates on the validity of some of those posts so maybe getting the admin to make an "Asmodean" forum might even be called for.[/quote']

 

Ouch. Those of us who post from work, and without our books will be at a serious disadvantage.

J

[rd2000]

Lol, buy another set of books to keep at work!

 

Really though, just an idea for a "team project" kind of thing here. So many bright minds on so many sides of this debate that it could be fun. We keep the pace slow, pull together all the factual information we can and put it together for everyone to see.

[Jedimuppet]

Lol' date=' buy another set of books to keep at work!

 

Really though, just an idea for a "team project" kind of thing here. So many bright minds on so many sides of this debate that it could be fun. We keep the pace slow, pull together all the factual information we can and put it together for everyone to see.[/quote']

 

I agree in theory. If you come up with an algorithmic approach that's independent of suspect, and objective rules for disqualifying data, you could potentially arrive at a consensus.

J

[Kalak]

I think it was Taim, as he is a Darkfriend and one of the Forsaken probably mentioned it once or twice so Taim decided to act and Balefired him but he had the flows reversed.

[Kadere]

Taim wasn't in Caemlyn at the time. RJ has discredited him.

[Guest Egwene]

rd2000/Jedi .... I hope you would completely disregard anything RJ is supposed to have said in this project as often we don't have his exact words or the exact wording of the question to which he replied. Nor in some cases when the comment was made.

[Jedimuppet]

rd2000/Jedi .... I hope you would completely disregard anything RJ is supposed to have said in this project as often we don't have his exact words or the exact wording of the question to which he replied. Nor in some cases when the comment was made.

 

I think his point was to research it, so that it was exact, or not use it. This thread is just sort of a fun activity for me to use when I'm sick of working, so I'm really up for anything.

J

[rd2000]

I would tier the info and clues. Undisputable facts that can't be meant to be anything other than what they say in the book would be first tier. i.e. Asmodean died in the pantry. 2nd tier and beyond would be more suggestive evidence that various readers might have interpreted differently. The key is to build something which you can use to cross-reference data quickly to eliminate down to the core data.

 

It might still come out that there aren't enough agreeable facts for us all to come to the same conclusion.

[bcxanth]

I've always been a fan of the Lanfear theory since the first time I heard it. It's the only option I can think of that would cause Asmo to be that shocked when he sees his killer.