Egwene's death?

[Classicvibe]

I'm not exactly sure how the actions of a mare are supposed to elicit any emotion related to shivering..... o.O

 

So I really can't speculate why Sanderson would say as such

[Dreggs Morlock]

Egwene, as the AS, has become total sure of her own superiority, completely sure she is always right, and has added to her already super-sized ego.

 

I love it! Look at ANY world leader before they got the job versus after they assumed the title. The same thing happens, sometimes in small doses, sometimes in large ones. Besides, they usually have good reason to "strut their stuff". Being a leader is a thankless job, and you can argue Egwene has it even rougher, with extremely high expectations and the upheaval in the world.

 

All in all, she is very realistic to me.

 

But the Bella reference means something that makes BS shiver is happening at the White Tower, and though I have NO idea what it could be, it gets me excited. I am ready for MoL, truly.

 

 

 

Egwene need some glue to repair some of the damages to the Tower. ...Enter Bela...

 

LOL!! I laughed outloud when I read that, go weird looks from my kids....

[amg]

Hmm. Perhaps it is not Egwene dying but one of the other characters close to Bela. Or it could be that Bela is a very special horse and helps change the course of Tarmon Gaidon.

[Danieljoe1]

Hmm. Perhaps it is not Egwene dying but one of the other characters close to Bela. Or it could be that Bela is a very special horse and helps change the course of Tarmon Gaidon.

 

As a Website I visited many years ago would say "Min is a finn (ael or ell,your choice) and Bella is the Creator" So Rand dies, sheds his blood on the rocks blah blah blah, and Bella pops in, brings him back to life, and they ride away into the sunset, old west style.

[amg]

Hmm. Interesting Danieljoe1, that could make sense in a Jordanese kind of way. (Yes, this is a new word meaning all things involving RJ and his created world :) )

[Duskfire]

I never understood the fascination with Bela. Pips is so much cooler.

[thedragonstar]

Of all mains, I can actually see this one.

 

However, I admit to two things: I haven't finished the last couple of books, and I haven't like Egwene since she split off from Nyneave/Elyane and was being a worse hypocrite than Nyneave, breaking her oath to the Wise Ones, and being cruel to her "friends" to cover it up. I know Nyneave isn't always right, lol, but she beats herself up a lot too. Overall the book where Bridgette got torn out and Nyneave in that section was the most painful book for me to read, with Egwene in the mix too, so I may be extra sensitive, but oi, I haven't felt for her in ages. But I don't "hate" her so much that I wouldn't mind some redemption, or glory...or nothing either. I wouldn't mind some realistic meaningless deaths...or it coming out of her own fault regardless of well meant, after seeing inside her mind, enjoying seeing Nyneave so she could intentionally "play" with her and overpower her, very very hard to come back from something like that.

 

So I can be bias...but really, I could see it.

[msbee]

I wouldn't mind if Egwene died.

I have to admit to disliking her character, but, at the same time I can see how such monumental arrogance and over-confidence is necessary to achieve everything she has so far. Let's face it, if she was a sweetie she'd just get trampled.

Still, biased or not, it seems to me that in real life generals and leaders who successfully prosecute a war or a rebellion rarely make good peacetime rulers afterwards.

I'd be quite satisfied if her over-confidence led her to over-reach. She could accomplish something amazing but go down in a blaze of glory.

 

And what about Gawyn's rings? Are they only there so that some Seanchan can spot them later and faint with awe?

He can't use them without affecting Egwene now and they are only weapons of last resort (unless he gives them away to someone else of course)

I can imagine Gawyn using one of those rings to maximize Warder rage and doing something spectacular.

[amg]

Uh. Rings? I don't remember what those were exactly. They mentioned them in 13 but I don't really remember them. Dragonstar, I can understand your frustration with Egwene but she does get better and I think more likeable in the rest of the books. I had trouble liking her in the middle books but I liked her way better in the last couple of books. In my humble opinion, she's awesome in the last couple of books.

[msbee]

Uh. Rings? I don't remember what those were exactly. They mentioned them in 13 but I don't really remember them. Dragonstar, I can understand your frustration with Egwene but she does get better and I think more likeable in the rest of the books. I had trouble liking her in the middle books but I liked her way better in the last couple of books. In my humble opinion, she's awesome in the last couple of books.

 

The Bloodknife rings Gawyn took from the Seanchan assassins who tried to kill Egwene while she was taking care of Mesaana in TAR. They give all sorts of advantages to the wearer (speed, strength, the ability to hide in shadows) but kill you after a while. Makes me wander what he will do with them, especially since there are 3 and you only need one per person (I assume).

[Bob T Dwarf]

In order to meaningfully answer this question we need to know the unknowable - mainly, how true was Jordan trying to be to the Arthurian myth?

 

Egwene is obviously meant to be the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake does not die in any version of King Arthur that I've ever read.

 

Mieren/Lanfear/Cyndane seems likely to be the Morgana LeFay analog. There is at least one version of the myth that has Morgana as one of the four women on the boat that carries Arthur off into the misty beyond. Since the Foretellings we have here only indicate three women on the boat, I doubt we'll see anything like that.

 

But, since the Lady of the Lake symbolizes the conveyor of both eternal hope and promise, I doubt we'll see Egwene die, either.

[msbee]

Whatever my opinions on Egwene, I don't think she would be riding Bela anyway.

The obvious candidate for that is Siuan, but those viewings of Siuan and Bryne needing to stay together to stay alive make me think that she probably makes it through AMOL.

So, I'm thinking a scene with Siuan on Bela surviving something momentous that made BS shiver

[sleepinghour]

Egwene is obviously meant to be the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake does not die in any version of King Arthur that I've ever read.

Nynaeve is the Lady of the Lake, who is sometimes known as Nineve or Nyneve. Malkier is known for its thousand lakes, so as Queen of Malkier she will be the Lady of the Lakes. Her constant seasickness and near drowning are probably meant to be ironic.

 

Egwene is Guinevere (Egwene al'Vere).

[sleepinghour]

Brandon Sanderson recently posted this. "Just wrote a scene with Bela in it. This scene is one that RJ left instructions for in his notes; it gave me shivers when reading." My opinion is Egwene gets killed and Bela makes some weeping cry over it. I say this because we know from Brandon's statements in the past that RJ left specific notes on the fate of all important characters and if this one gave shivers to him and it pertained to Bela, I'd say Egwene was involved. And I say this because he's also confirmed in the past that Bela lives so we know it's not Belas death.

This post is a bit misleading... It was two separate tweets, and there was some time (half an hour maybe) inbetween, so they could refer to two completely different scenes.

 

BrandSanderson Fri Dec 09

Just wrote a scene with Bela in it. #AMoL.

 

BrandSanderson Fri Dec 09

This scene is one that RJ left instruction for in his notes; it gave me shivers when reading. #AMoL

[Bob T Dwarf]

Egwene is obviously meant to be the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake does not die in any version of King Arthur that I've ever read.

Nynaeve is the Lady of the Lake, who is sometimes known as Nineve or Nyneve. Malkier is known for its thousand lakes, so as Queen of Malkier she will be the Lady of the Lakes. Her constant seasickness and near drowning are probably meant to be ironic.

 

Egwene is Guinevere (Egwene al'Vere).

 

Maalkier with its thousand lakes is obviously meant to be Minnesota, and so would be full of Norwegians all making Lutefisk. The smell of which will prevent Nynaeve from ever spending much time there.

 

 

Maybe I'm getting my myths mixed-up, but didn't the Lady of the Lake reside in a body of water wherein was the Island of Avalon? Is Avalon not where that boat is supposed to be taking Arthur?

 

Avalon = Tar Valon. And the Lady of Tar Valon is the Amyrlin or Egwene al Vere. Our Lan(celot) was never the least bit taken with Egwene, he only ever had eyes for Nynaeve. The fact that Egwene has the hots for Gawyn ( Gawain ) causes Rand no distress at all. Despite how the names work, I'm pretty sure that Elayne is our analog for Guinivere. I'm not sure that The Once and Future King has any analogs for Aviendha or Almindreda. Together those three bear some resemblance to the Norns, but neither Arthur nor Odin nor any god that I know of ever had the hots for them. I imagine if you got any or all of the Wonder Girls riled up enough they'd most resemble the Furies or perhaps Valkyries.

 

In truth none of these characters is supposed to correspond exactly to any one mythological character no matter what myth we talk about. There's some Arthur in Rand, but also some Tyr, and hopefully some Baldr too. We seem to be seeing a fair bit of Sidhartha at the moment as well. Mat is some of both Odin and Loki. I'm leaving out the Oriental and Indian gods because I'm not nearly familiar enough with them to draw the correct parallels, but I'm sure they do exist for all of the major characters. Zoroaster and others fit in somewhere as well.

[sleepinghour]

Maybe I'm getting my myths mixed-up, but didn't the Lady of the Lake reside in a body of water wherein was the Island of Avalon?

Hmm, I'm not sure, really... There are many versions of the story, and some say there were several Ladies of the Lake. If we take Le Morte d’Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory, it calls Nimue "the chief lady of the lake" and says she did much for Arthur to protect her husband from danger, which reminds of the situation with Lan.

 

...thus was he led away in a ship wherein were three queens; that one was King Arthur's sister, Queen Morgan le Fay; the other was the Queen of Northgalis; the third was the Queen of the Waste Lands. Also there was Nimue, the chief lady of the lake, that had wedded Pelleas the good knight; and this lady had done much for King Arthur, for she would never suffer Sir Pelleas to be in no place where he should be in danger of his life; and so he lived to the uttermost of his days with her in great rest.

But yes, Avalon is where his body was taken in every version of the tale. And as you said, none of the characters correspond exactly to any one mythological character. King Arthur is both Arthur Hawkwing and Rand. Morgan le Fay is obviously Moiraine, and the Queen of the Waste Lands sounds like Aviendha. But the "three on a boat" in WoT will probably be Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Since RJ was only loosely basing the story on various myths and adding things of his own, the original myths can mislead us as much as they can hint at what's to come.

[Eht Slat Meit]

But the "three on a boat" in WoT will probably be Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Since RJ was only loosely basing the story on various myths and adding things of his own, the original myths can mislead us as much as they can hint at what's to come.

 

Yeah, as far as that misleading goes, I get the sense of a pattern in how RJ shaped his correlations to Arthurian myth. It's hardly a subject of expertise for me, but I get the distinct impression that he wrote those correlations as hints meant to draw the eye and then present an antithesis to Arthurian myth in a strange metaphor or teasing jab.

 

Examples?

The Sword that is not a Sword - Callandor

The Stone that is not a Stone - Tear

A Chief Among Chiefs, But Not a King - Rand

She Who Is Not A Lady, But Queen Of A Thousand Lakes - Nynaeve

The Wizard Who is Not One, but Three - Moiraine/Lan/Thom

(She's Not) His One True Love - Egwene

The Three Who ARE His One True Love - Elayne/Aviendha/Min

The Boat that is not a Boat - Bela

 

And so on...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah, as far as that misleading goes, I get the sense of a pattern in how RJ shaped his correlations to Arthurian myth. It's hardly a subject of expertise for me, but I get the distinct impression that he wrote those correlations as hints meant to draw the eye and then present an antithesis to Arthurian myth in a strange metaphor or teasing jab.

 

Examples?

The Sword that is not a Sword - Callandor

The Stone that is not a Stone - Tear

A Chief Among Chiefs, But Not a King - Rand

She Who Is Not A Lady, But Queen Of A Thousand Lakes - Nynaeve

The Wizard Who is Not One, but Three - Moiraine/Lan/Thom

(She's Not) His One True Love - Egwene

The Three Who ARE His One True Love - Elayne/Aviendha/Min

The Boat that is not a Boat - Bela

 

And so on...

 

Far be it from me to ever cast any aspersions on Bela, who may or may not be the Creator, but even Bela is going to be hard pressed and sorely used to bear off Elayne, Aviendha, Almindreda, and Rand all at once, and walking on water to boot.

 

Mind you I'm not saying she's incapable of it, just that she'd need to sprout four more legs and reveal herself as Loki's fair heir, Slepnir, at the very least. All of which might bear on why nobody in Emond's Field ever quite trusted Mat around their livestock.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Far be it from me to ever cast any aspersions on Bela, who may or may not be the Creator, but even Bela is going to be hard pressed and sorely used to bear off Elayne, Aviendha, Almindreda, and Rand all at once, and walking on water to boot.

 

Mind you I'm not saying she's incapable of it, just that she'd need to sprout four more legs and reveal herself as Loki's fair heir, Slepnir, at the very least. All of which might bear on why nobody in Emond's Field ever quite trusted Mat around their livestock.

 

If Callandor's not obligated to be a real sword, I'm sure Bela shouldn't be required to be a real boat. At some point, all three may ride upon her back, even the Aiel in an astounding cultural paradigm shift!, and she shall return to her roots by bearing the burden of her dead king who isn't really a king and isn't really dead.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

If Callandor's not obligated to be a real sword, I'm sure Bela shouldn't be required to be a real boat. At some point, all three may ride upon her back, even the Aiel in an astounding cultural paradigm shift!, and she shall return to her roots by bearing the burden of her dead king who isn't really a king and isn't really dead.

 

That does have a pleasing symmetry to it, doesn't it? In many ways I hope you're right.

[Eht Slat Meit]

That does have a pleasing symmetry to it, doesn't it? In many ways I hope you're right.

 

Could be even more epic with Old Spice Guy singing "I'm On A Boat" in the background.

[cortezthekiller]

I don't get why some people try to explicitly equate "character x" in WOT to "character y" in whatever myth. I was under the impression that while clearly there are similarities to real-world myths, the whole idea is that as these "legends fade into myths" characters and stories end up bleeding into amorphous and loosely based analogues of their original. I don't believe this is all simply a retelling of Arthurian Myth, and I think it's misleading and somewhat egregious to boil down the similarities in characters to a simple matter of "x = y and a = b".

 

I do find the analogous nature of Wheel myths to real-world ones to be somewhat blatant at times and it's part of what I love about the series, I just think it's easy to over simplify and over analyze these analogies. Far be it from me, though, to accuse a WOT forum of over analysis! :-D

[Eht Slat Meit]

I do find the analogous nature of Wheel myths to real-world ones to be somewhat blatant at times and it's part of what I love about the series, I just think it's easy to over simplify and over analyze these analogies. Far be it from me, though, to accuse a WOT forum of over analysis! :-D

 

I haven't had a chance to intensively review RJ's interviews and see what he says about the matter, but I got the distinct impression from BS's tweet about "mythological underpinnings" that they are a very real and intentional part of the series, managing cyclically in the books what happens in more linear fashion in real life.

[Sephie913]

Yeah, as far as that misleading goes, I get the sense of a pattern in how RJ shaped his correlations to Arthurian myth. It's hardly a subject of expertise for me, but I get the distinct impression that he wrote those correlations as hints meant to draw the eye and then present an antithesis to Arthurian myth in a strange metaphor or teasing jab.

 

Examples?

The Sword that is not a Sword - Callandor

The Stone that is not a Stone - Tear

A Chief Among Chiefs, But Not a King - Rand

She Who Is Not A Lady, But Queen Of A Thousand Lakes - Nynaeve

The Wizard Who is Not One, but Three - Moiraine/Lan/Thom

(She's Not) His One True Love - Egwene

The Three Who ARE His One True Love - Elayne/Aviendha/Min

The Boat that is not a Boat - Bela

 

And so on...

 

Far be it from me to ever cast any aspersions on Bela, who may or may not be the Creator, but even Bela is going to be hard pressed and sorely used to bear off Elayne, Aviendha, Almindreda, and Rand all at once, and walking on water to boot.

 

Mind you I'm not saying she's incapable of it, just that she'd need to sprout four more legs and reveal herself as Loki's fair heir, Slepnir, at the very least. All of which might bear on why nobody in Emond's Field ever quite trusted Mat around their livestock.

 

 

This is one of the funniest things I've read in my life.

 

As for the Sanderson quote, I think it's likely: Bela survives, looks over the desolation of the world after TG, a wind blows, so on and so forth... Additional survivors sold seperately.

 

And to the mention of Bela and glue in the same sentence: may Shaidar Haran box your ears. :(

[muddasssir]

i can add only one thing to it that we cannot be that lucky. In fact when Bs started the series I begged him to kill Egwene .