How powerful do you need to be able to use the travelling stones

[XXX]

I was doing a reread of the series and in the Great Hunt...Loial keeps saying that only the most powerful of the channelers in the AoL could use the stones. We know Rand can use it so can Lanfear. Who else is strong enough to use them? It cannot be very rare because the Seachan used them to go get their pet animals of war right?

[W_A]

Well, the Seanchan only needed to get all their animals once, and then they could just keep breeding them in this world, and although I don't have any sources to back this up, I think it's likely it happened in the first quarter, if not eighth of the Consolidation for them to become such an integral part of their civilization and be essential to conquest. Even so, over a 900 year time period, that gives them probably 100-200 years to raise one channeler to be strong enough to use them. Judging from that amount of time I'd say that at least Cadsuane could do it, being the strongest Aes Sedai of the millennium pre-Supergirls. Since Cadsuane is a level 14 channeler, I'd guess that it has the same limit as the Choedan Kal, level 12. (Both according to Saidar Strength Ranking)

 

This is a bit strange for being "The Strongest of the AoL," but the only way you could get around it being a minimum of 14 would be to say that the Seanchan had exceptionally strong channelers, which wouldn't make much sense because they also killed male channelers and didn't let damane have children. Possibly the native wild channelers of Seanchan before the Consolidation were stronger, and then the invading fleet took control of them with adams.

[Zizoz]

I'd assumed that the grolm and such were just native to Seanchan, and in the mirror world Rand visited they had simply crossed over somehow in the past thousand years.

[W_A]

I'd assumed that the grolm and such were just native to Seanchan, and in the mirror world Rand visited they had simply crossed over somehow in the past thousand years.

Alright, after looking through the BWB, I found that they were definitely from mirror worlds, but came in the first millennium AB, so that ramps the power level up considerably, past Cadsuane, who, although she was the strongest in this millennium, wouldn't be the strongest in that millennium because of the culling effect, which puts the power level again over 14 and into Forsaken-like levels of strength.

[Tyzack]

[Removed]

[baalsmistress]

Things are a bit confused with the Grolm.

 

According to the BWB, they were brough back from Parallel worlds via portal stones, not Mirror worlds.

 

Then we have this Jordan quote

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

Jordan: Possibly.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

 

Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

 

And the quote from the BWB

 

THese strange new creatures were not shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably n an attempt to find aid against the real shadowspawn.

 

The only conclusion I can draw is that the parallel worlds do indeed have their own mirrors, that the portal stones were able to access those mirrors, and somehow the Grolm were able to physically travel to their own mirrors, and were captured there and dragged back to our world. All really convoluted but I can't see another way to rationalise all the various RJ quotes.

[Din]

I think that there's a static maximum possible power level which doesn't change from age to age. That is to say, when rating channelers on any of the numeric scales, the top 'notch' always represents the same amount of power. The point I'm making is that I don't believe the presence or availability of channelers in a given time frame or location should be a factor in determining the requisite power level for using portal stones.

 

The main problem, to my mind, is that we have so few examples of portal stone use. The best lead to follow, I think, is Rand's power level as it develops. If we were able to put together an idea of how Rand's power level has grown over the series and cross-reference it with how difficult he found each use then we may get some indication of what level is required.

[Ananta]

Things are a bit confused with the Grolm.

 

According to the BWB, they were brough back from Parallel worlds via portal stones, not Mirror worlds.

 

Then we have this Jordan quote

 

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?

Jordan: Yes.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?

Jordan: Possibly.

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

 

Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

 

And the quote from the BWB

 

THese strange new creatures were not shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably n an attempt to find aid against the real shadowspawn.

 

The only conclusion I can draw is that the parallel worlds do indeed have their own mirrors, that the portal stones were able to access those mirrors, and somehow the Grolm were able to physically travel to their own mirrors, and were captured there and dragged back to our world. All really convoluted but I can't see another way to rationalise all the various RJ quotes.

 

Or RJ just messed it up D:

[baalsmistress]

There is that possibility.

[Mr Ares]

The Seanchan exotics were brought in by the Armies of the Night, before the invasion. It's quite possible that back then, the channelers remembered how to link, in which case the number of people able to use the Portal Stones increases significantly.

[gloweye]

13 woman beat every single channeler. so as ares said, a group of woman could get them.

 

that is, if they know how. even in the AoL, few knew anything about them. we know both lanfear and Greandal did, but neither appears to know everything. greandal knew enough to plan to fle there for the DO, and lanfear enough to find Rand. but that appears to be around everything they knew.

[Kahsm]

I'm sure you all know this, but I don't think it was mentioned and it may add something for someone. I'm not making any points just adding data. Verin very clearly states she would have no hope of even getting close to what's required to use one.

 

"Verin looked at him blandly. "I have never used a Stone; that is why your use is more recent than mine. I

am well aware of my limits. I would be destroyed before I came close to channeling enough Power to work a

Portal Stone. But I know a little of them. Enough to help you, a bit."

[Din]

I'm sure you all know this, but I don't think it was mentioned and it may add something for someone. I'm not making any points just adding data. Verin very clearly states she would have no hope of even getting close to what's required to use one.

Yes, a useful contribution :) It makes me wonder exactly how far above one's natural level one would have to channel to necessitate personal destruction.

[michael.clinton83]

This is all of the

1. Rand following Fain where he meets Selene, then back again, TGH11 & TGH17.

2. Rand ports everyone from Steading Tsofu to Toman Head in TGH36.

3. Rand travelling towards Rhuidean the first time from Tear in TSR22

4. There are ruins nearby the Shadowspawn attack on the White Cloaks, Grady can feel a male channeling nearby in ToM41. It's assumed that this is being done via portal stone.

 

If the last is in-fact a portal stone, and it's being done by a man, it's possible that it's being done by a man from the Black Tower, or one of the remaining Forsaken. If that's true, I'd guess that it did take a lot of power to operate for Grady to feel it that far away. I'm also guessing that if they were easy to use, the 'how' would have been re-discovered by woman by now, seeing as how Verin knew a lot about them (TGH37).

 

Another possibility is that if Loial did read that only the most powerful could use them in AoL, his source was wrong.

[Sharaman]

Verin (thought she) knew a lot about them. She may be wrong. Or lying. Ditto Loail.

Rand had no clue how to use them and just blasted as much saidin as he could. He might be doing the equivalent of busting a combination lock open rather than dialing the right numbers.

There may be a trick/ specific weaves (Saidin/saidar) which aren't that power intensive but tricky and difficult.

The AS don't know it. But some of the AoL chaps did. Quite possibly LTT would remember this but Rand couldn't access LTT memories at all or that easily in TGH/ TSR.

[Graveyardhag]

Don't forget that the BWB has intentional errors. Just like the series itself, not everything is right.

 

 

Also, I think Sharaman above me has the right idea.

[XXX]

13 woman beat every single channeler. so as ares said, a group of woman could get them.

 

that is, if they know how. even in the AoL, few knew anything about them. we know both lanfear and Greandal did, but neither appears to know everything. greandal knew enough to plan to fle there for the DO, and lanfear enough to find Rand. but that appears to be around everything they knew.

 

13 women can hold a shield...nothing says that any 13 women together can wield more power than a single powerful channeler.

[Nightstrike]

TFoH (Pale Shadows) - “And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.”

 

TFoH (News comes to Cairhien) - Thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai could overwhelm him linked, and he did not think that Elaida would send her weakest.

Aes Sedai had a certain minimum potential, and Rand isn't most men... The weakest women in the Tower - their numbers had fallen the last centuries, so maybe there weren't that many really weak ones? Maybe noone as weak as Morgase? Or maybe "they" neglected to count those who were still in training, and therefore couldn't link (which seems reasonable to me)?

 

Morgase might even have had difficulty to enter a circle , since she can't channel properly most of the time. That is, even if she had known how.

[michael.clinton83]

Aes Sedai had a certain minimum potential, and Rand isn't most men... The weakest women in the Tower - their numbers had fallen the last centuries, so maybe there weren't that many really weak ones? Maybe noone as weak as Morgase? Or maybe "they" neglected to count those who were still in training, and therefore couldn't link (which seems reasonable to me)?

 

Morgase might even have had difficulty to enter a circle , since she can't channel properly most of the time. That is, even if she had known how.

 

You're digging at a lot of words here, but in the context of the sentence saying "Thirteen women who could barely channel" and then "Thirteen of the weakest women in the tower" back to back in two sentences that compare against each other clarifies that 'they' doesn't include novices. Morgase and anyone else that can channel is enrolled as a novice, even if they don't have the potential to ever become an Aes Sedai. By definition, the 13 weakest women in the tower if including novices would essentially be the same thing as saying 13 who can barely channel.

 

I also think it's pretty self explainatory that a Novice or even an Accepted would make-up part of the group sent to capture The Dragon Reborn.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

According to RJ's notes, Morgase is a 1, and the lowest Aes Sedai are 4s.

 

Also, remember what Egwene was able to manage while stuffed with Forkroot while linked to a bunch of weak novices that could barely channel. And she was able to teach them all how to link pretty quickly, so I can't imagine it's terribly difficult to learn.

[Suttree]

Don't forget that the BWB has intentional errors.

 

People always say this but I have yet to see anyone able to provide a significant example...

[Mr Ares]

Aes Sedai had a certain minimum potential, and Rand isn't most men... The weakest women in the Tower - their numbers had fallen the last centuries, so maybe there weren't that many really weak ones? Maybe noone as weak as Morgase? Or maybe "they" neglected to count those who were still in training, and therefore couldn't link (which seems reasonable to me)?

 

Morgase might even have had difficulty to enter a circle , since she can't channel properly most of the time. That is, even if she had known how.

 

You're digging at a lot of words here, but in the context of the sentence saying "Thirteen women who could barely channel" and then "Thirteen of the weakest women in the tower" back to back in two sentences that compare against each other clarifies that 'they' doesn't include novices. Morgase and anyone else that can channel is enrolled as a novice, even if they don't have the potential to ever become an Aes Sedai. By definition, the 13 weakest women in the tower if including novices would essentially be the same thing as saying 13 who can barely channel.

 

I also think it's pretty self explainatory that a Novice or even an Accepted would make-up part of the group sent to capture The Dragon Reborn.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

According to RJ's notes, Morgase is a 1, and the lowest Aes Sedai are 4s.

 

Also, remember what Egwene was able to manage while stuffed with Forkroot while linked to a bunch of weak novices that could barely channel. And she was able to teach them all how to link pretty quickly, so I can't imagine it's terribly difficult to learn.

I'm glad to hear that you've read RJ's notes. The rest of us haven't, and nor have the people who made that strength ranking.

[michael.clinton83]

I'm glad to hear that you've read RJ's notes. The rest of us haven't, and nor have the people who made that strength ranking.

 

lol, really? Ok, for Mr Ares I'll clarify my previous comment.

 

The list I linked is not directly derived from RJs notes. RJ confirmed that he does have notes in which he ranks female channelers from 1 to 21. The linked list uses that info, and the comparisons of women's power levels in the books to re-create what most accept as a fairly accurate portrayal of RJ's own list.

 

I actually never stated I've read RJ's notes. I linked a list that has a very descriptive explaination of what it is and indicated that "according to his notes", the weakest female channelers (like Morgase) are not strong enough to ever become Aes Sedai, and even you'll agree she is very likely a 1 on RJ's list, while those powerful enough to become an Aes Sedai are significantly stronger on RJ's list. In his notes. That I don't need to read to know, based on what RJ himself had made public. About his notes.

 

In the end, this conversation is about linking and the point I was making is still very much valid.

[Orderofolde]

This is all of the

1. Rand following Fain where he meets Selene, then back again, TGH11 & TGH17.

2. Rand ports everyone from Steading Tsofu to Toman Head in TGH36.

3. Rand travelling towards Rhuidean the first time from Tear in TSR22

4. There are ruins nearby the Shadowspawn attack on the White Cloaks, Grady can feel a male channeling nearby in ToM41. It's assumed that this is being done via portal stone.

 

If the last is in-fact a portal stone, and it's being done by a man, it's possible that it's being done by a man from the Black Tower, or one of the remaining Forsaken. If that's true, I'd guess that it did take a lot of power to operate for Grady to feel it that far away. I'm also guessing that if they were easy to use, the 'how' would have been re-discovered by woman by now, seeing as how Verin knew a lot about them (TGH37).

 

Another possibility is that if Loial did read that only the most powerful could use them in AoL, his source was wrong.

It has already been discussed that Neald/Grady sensed WEAK channeling of Saidin when the masses of Shadowspawn were rising from the dry riverbed in the attack. Many remarked that it might have been an error but BS confirmed that it was not and would say no more. Speculation moved to the possibility that the channeler might have been using a Ter'angreal that might have been made to use the portal stones, as it was the only explanation that fit regarding the rules we have been told about the portal stones. I can't remember if the attack against Saldea also saw the weak channeling in the armies coming down to attack as well before the buildup to blowing the walls wide open, but something strange was definitely going on. The only other thing that fit might have been a channeler linked to women, though the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones did not remark on feeling any from a woman.

 

Another thing to note regarding the mirror vs parallel worlds is that portal stones go to mirror worlds, but we have mention of len in his belly of an eagle going to the moon/stars. Space travel or some other discovery such as the doorframe ter'angreal that sent people to the Finns world, which RJ claimed was a parallel and not a mirror world. It could be that the portal stones were created for mirror worlds and the doorframe ter'angreal were created to take people to the parallel worlds. The portal stones resisted being moved from the place they were raised, and the doorframe Ter'angreal can be moved but not tipped over, kind of the opposite effect as we see portal stones fallen over that we know Ogier righted but resist being moved.

[Sharaman]

At the Riverbed, Grady sensed intermittent "weak" chnnelling.

Remember that men cannot sense each other's strength potential; All he can feel is how much saidin is being used.

 

Now, the intermittence is explained itself by Grady - the channeler is bringing trollocs in by stone, and jumping out again, alone.

Grady can't sense the channeler saidin use at the other portal stone (wherever it is).

The low power usage he senses occurs only when the channeler is transporting himself ALONE back to the other stone.

 

Quite possibly it doesn't take much power for one perseon to transport self.

 

We do know Rand had to use a lot of power when he carried himself, Loail and Lanfear and he almost over-matched carrying the party to Rhuidean even with his fat-man angreal.

Rand never tried just transporting himself so we don't even have a basis for comparing the make/break circuit Grady senses to any other portal use.

 

It may be logical to assume that, apparently, one channeler can transport himself without huge power usage if he knows how.

 

The whole question of how powerful you need to be to transport others through a portal stone remains totally open.

Maybe there's a tricky weave to using portals, which can actually be used with quite low power to transport multiple people, if you know how.

Maybe it takes exponentially more power to transport several bodies than to transport just one and only a Forsaken class channeler can do that.

[Nightstrike]

Grady said:

Whoever it is they're not terribly strong. And they're not joining the battle. I think they must be doing something to bring the Trollocs, jumping in with fists of them, then jumping away immediately to fetch more.

I believe Grady is among the stronger Asha'man (=somewhere above average). "Not terribly strong" might not be the same as "below average" when it comes from him. I also wonder if the distance might be a problem when judging such things (for men, at least)? It seems likely to me.

 

This was what Perrin said before the above quote (what Grady said):

I suspect one of the Forsaken is behind this.

->And then he turned toward Grady.