[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[mmeeshal]

Meh, I don't think the willingness to lynch ANYONE on D1 is scummy, Des. I understand the pro-No-Lynch argument, I've heard it argued the best and wordiest by Lanth so I think I can safely say I see why it might be useful sometimes.

 

However, I generally believe that the only time we don't have a "good candidate" for a D1 lynch is when everyone wastes the Day joke voting, and the deadline comes up and everyone piles on whoever has the most votes.

 

Otherwise, even if a person isn't "likely" to be scum based on their posts (but technically they're just as likely as anyone else to be scum), lynching that person can lead to valuable information. Especially if there was at least one other competing train. Alignments are a key factor in analyzing play and drawing conclusions on living players. Yeah, you can say "those people look like they're connected," but if you never know what their alignments/roles are/were, you can't really say for sure if that's the case.

 

Anyway, my point is, on Day 1 a lynch doesn't always have to be about scumminess. It's about information.

 

Also, I don't see what's wrong with impartiality on Day 1. It would be MORE scummy to say "I'm okay with voting to lynch anyone except these people," or "I'll only lynch someone if they are super scummy on day 1, otherwise forget about it." In the first, it's just not going to happen, in the second, that's shooting the town in the foot because sometimes, no one slips or does anything scummy on day 1. It happens. We can still get information based on voting patterns and picking someone to lynch and discovering their alignment.

 

Umm, in conclusion, since that seems kind of disjointed to me.....

 

It's normal to be willing to lynch anyone on Day 1, especially if it's borne of a different Day 1 philosophy than you have, Des. Saying "I'm willing to lynch anyone" means "right now, everyone's game, because we don't have any solid info yet and everyone is just as likely to be scum at this point."

 

That's not really scummy.

[cosmicpanda]

Fair ladies and gallant gentlemen, I must apologise for not having been here; skyrim and dinner parties have derailed me. I will try to be better.

 

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

 

Gentle Blackhoof: Why did you answer for ameg when I asked him why joke-voting was bad? I wanted to know what he thought, not what you thought. Are you scumbuddies?

 

Dangerous Des: If we no-lynch on day one, do we also no-lynch on day two? When do we start lynching? It's normal not to lynch scum on day one, as the odds are stacked against the town, but the process of lynching makes people take sides, which generates important information for later in the game.

 

Meesha: You seem to be posting a lot about the issues, without really giving your opinion on anything relating to the people in the game. Am I right?

[hazelkrs1]

@ Meesh: There's other ways that a No Lynch vote can become useful on first days, besides just when everyone wastes it joke-voting. Most of the time people are content with only applying pressure to one or two people, and will try to set up competing trains on em to achieve info through pressure. This is a good thing, although it's better to pressure as many people as possible day 1. However, if I become convinced that both of the main targets of our lynch trains are town, and it's unlikely to get a lynch going on anyone else at that point, I still think a No Lynch is useful. Lynches aren't the only way to get info day 1, simple pressure is good enough and if you prevent everyone from lynching someone who ends up being town you actually can end up helping assure a town victory later.

 

Incidentally, it feels a little like you might be putting words into Soy's mouth by saying "I'm willing to lynch anyone" means "right now, everyone's game, because we don't have any solid info yet and everyone is just as likely to be scum at this point." First of all, if that's what he meant he could have come forth himself and stated something along those lines, and second of all I'm still not in agreement with that philosophy and I think it's an easy smokescreen to use for actually being EAGER to lynch anyone because a townie being lynched day 1 helps assure a mafia victory.

[Nolder]

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

get your order of events right and ask me again please

[cosmicpanda]

I'm sorry, that should be "Munificent Meesha".

[cosmicpanda]

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

get your order of events right and ask me again please

 

Unvote, Vote: Nolder

[hazelkrs1]

LOL @ Panda's nickname for me

 

The thing is, no lynches aren't always a good strategy for day 1, but in certain situations they can be. If you have a good candidate, which I think we have a couple of in this case, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with starting to lynch on the first day. And I would also say that it's rare that I'd see a situation where a No Lynch would be a good idea on day 2 after voting for it the day before. Obviously you have to be willing to use the town's main tool for getting rid of scum and can't be too timid with it, but on the first day there's so little concrete information usually that it's rare that town will feel confident that they're lynching the right person.

[hazelkrs1]

It is good to see that we have a fairly good crop of active posters in this game btw, this feels like it should be a little less frustrating than others I've been in lately

[mmeeshal]

Fair ladies and gallant gentlemen, I must apologise for not having been here; skyrim and dinner parties have derailed me. I will try to be better.

 

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

 

Gentle Blackhoof: Why did you answer for ameg when I asked him why joke-voting was bad? I wanted to know what he thought, not what you thought. Are you scumbuddies?

 

Dangerous Des: If we no-lynch on day one, do we also no-lynch on day two? When do we start lynching? It's normal not to lynch scum on day one, as the odds are stacked against the town, but the process of lynching makes people take sides, which generates important information for later in the game.

 

Meesha: You seem to be posting a lot about the issues, without really giving your opinion on anything relating to the people in the game. Am I right?

No, you're not. Reread the thread.

 

@ Meesh: There's other ways that a No Lynch vote can become useful on first days, besides just when everyone wastes it joke-voting. Most of the time people are content with only applying pressure to one or two people, and will try to set up competing trains on em to achieve info through pressure. This is a good thing, although it's better to pressure as many people as possible day 1. However, if I become convinced that both of the main targets of our lynch trains are town, and it's unlikely to get a lynch going on anyone else at that point, I still think a No Lynch is useful. Lynches aren't the only way to get info day 1, simple pressure is good enough and if you prevent everyone from lynching someone who ends up being town you actually can end up helping assure a town victory later.

 

Incidentally, it feels a little like you might be putting words into Soy's mouth by saying "I'm willing to lynch anyone" means "right now, everyone's game, because we don't have any solid info yet and everyone is just as likely to be scum at this point." First of all, if that's what he meant he could have come forth himself and stated something along those lines, and second of all I'm still not in agreement with that philosophy and I think it's an easy smokescreen to use for actually being EAGER to lynch anyone because a townie being lynched day 1 helps assure a mafia victory.

Going to openly state now that I cannot concentrate enough right now to thoroughly read this post, so I skimmed it (did the same with Pandy's, too, except the part about me) and will read again later.... But I did catch the drift, and yes, you're right, maybe I'm putting words in Boyo's mouth. That's what I got from him, but that may not be what he meant. But anyway, differing day 1 philosophy isn't of itself a reason to lynch someone. People who have played mafia far longer than yourself (myself included) can testify that the no lynch on day 1 philosophy you spout isn't inherently better than the one being argued right now. I've never played a game where we achieved a "No Lynch" vote on Day 1, and the games went just fine. Sometimes town won, sometimes scum did. It doesn't give anyone a fairer chance either way. It's just a different point of view. Get over it.

 

I'm sorry, that should be "Munificent Meesha".

I am not entirely sure what that word means, but I think the term should be "Awesomest."

[Nolder]

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

get your order of events right and ask me again please

 

Unvote, Vote: Nolder

not negotiating with terrorists :angry:

[SBoydW]

@ Meesh: There's other ways that a No Lynch vote can become useful on first days, besides just when everyone wastes it joke-voting. Most of the time people are content with only applying pressure to one or two people, and will try to set up competing trains on em to achieve info through pressure. This is a good thing, although it's better to pressure as many people as possible day 1. However, if I become convinced that both of the main targets of our lynch trains are town, and it's unlikely to get a lynch going on anyone else at that point, I still think a No Lynch is useful. Lynches aren't the only way to get info day 1, simple pressure is good enough and if you prevent everyone from lynching someone who ends up being town you actually can end up helping assure a town victory later.

 

Incidentally, it feels a little like you might be putting words into Soy's mouth by saying "I'm willing to lynch anyone" means "right now, everyone's game, because we don't have any solid info yet and everyone is just as likely to be scum at this point." First of all, if that's what he meant he could have come forth himself and stated something along those lines, and second of all I'm still not in agreement with that philosophy and I think it's an easy smokescreen to use for actually being EAGER to lynch anyone because a townie being lynched day 1 helps assure a mafia victory.

 

That's what I meant... really didn't think I had to spell it out but I guess I do. Or rather mmeesh does...

 

Also From Des:

 

The thing is, no lynches aren't always a good strategy for day 1, but in certain situations they can be. If you have a good candidate, which I think we have a couple of in this case, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with starting to lynch on the first day. And I would also say that it's rare that I'd see a situation where a No Lynch would be a good idea on day 2 after voting for it the day before. Obviously you have to be willing to use the town's main tool for getting rid of scum and can't be too timid with it, but on the first day there's so little concrete information usually that it's rare that town will feel confident that they're lynching the right person.

 

So only be timid with the towns best weapon on day 1. check. I mean what? Why would a townie EVER want to be timid with their best weapon.

 

I will now demonstrate my willingness to move my vote and not develop tunnel vision.

 

Unvote. Vote: Des.

 

I hope that convinces you of your mistake on that point at least.

[Leelou]

Nolder, I would just like to point out your vote is no longer on the train you started after the 3rd vote in the game.

[Leelou]

Sorry, hit post before I was done. You are now the only one voting me.

[amegakure]

You seem a lil eager to be rid of votes leelou?

[Leelou]

No, just calling Nol out.

[Leyrann]

uh....meta here....but i have recently thought joke votes irrelevant and a great tactic for scum to delay the beginning of day one. I just felt the need to say these thoughts again. I dont want anyone to think im trying to fly under the radar.

I assume he means that the longer people joke around and not do anything the more rushed people get to lynch someone, someone who is usually town.

 

I think you are right, and because of that - UNVOTE.

 

I just don't like how quickly Ley unvotes here when he should have been able to surmise the reasoning behind Amega's post himself.

 

I had not thought of it already. For me, joke votes were something that you just did, then, when the game became serious, you moved to someone scummy. I never thought about the (likely) possibility that not stopping with joke voting decreased the chance of lynching scum at day one.

 

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

get your order of events right and ask me again please

 

Unvote, Vote: Nolder

 

...

 

 

You say Nol did something, then Nol says "no, I didn't", and instead of rereading and see if it was true or not, you just vote him? The only think I can think of then is VOTE Panda.

[Leyrann]

*thing, not think. Sorry.

[Amadine]

Vote Count:

Ed (2) - Arlow, Amega

 

Leelou (1) - Nolder

Des (2) - Leelou, Soy

 

Ley (1) - Maw

Song (1) - Nyn

Levity (1) - Corrosive

 

Arlow (1) - Key

 

Amega (2) - Meesh, Spirit

 

Meesh (1) - Ed

Soyo (3) - Hoof, Womby, Des

Pandy (2) - Verb, Leyrann

Nolder (1) - Pandy

24 players = 13 to lynch

 

 

 

[mmeeshal]

I'm sorry, that should be "Munificent Meesha".

I broke down and looked it up. There are worse words you could have used in the alliteration.

[ed2funy]

Des:

>.>

I have evidence! XD

 

 

Ahhh, I think I am playing semantics here....

Discounting No Lynch, which I think in some cases is a viable option, then you should be willing to lynch anyone Day 1. But I mean from the beginning. It quickly narrows down and changes as people come forth who are "more scummy" than others, or those who are controversial players of the day.

 

Annnnddd, what Meesh said. lol

 

 

Fair ladies and gallant gentlemen, I must apologise for not having been here; skyrim and dinner parties have derailed me. I will try to be better.

 

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

 

Gentle Blackhoof: Why did you answer for ameg when I asked him why joke-voting was bad? I wanted to know what he thought, not what you thought. Are you scumbuddies?

 

Dangerous Des: If we no-lynch on day one, do we also no-lynch on day two? When do we start lynching? It's normal not to lynch scum on day one, as the odds are stacked against the town, but the process of lynching makes people take sides, which generates important information for later in the game.

 

Meesha: You seem to be posting a lot about the issues, without really giving your opinion on anything relating to the people in the game. Am I right?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, that should be "Munificent Meesha".

I broke down and looked it up. There are worse words you could have used in the alliteration.

Ley: Nol should have corrected Pandy himself. He is being silly.

[Blackhoof]

Gentle Blackhoof: Why did you answer for ameg when I asked him why joke-voting was bad? I wanted to know what he thought, not what you thought. Are you scumbuddies?

 

 

gentle? o.o

I am quite the ruffian, I assure you!

 

I digress, I answered simply because I could see what he meant, and I felt the need to step in and help my good pal amega.

 

besides, you know me- always saying things merely for the sake of saying things!

[Nolder]

Nolder, I would just like to point out your vote is no longer on the train you started after the 3rd vote in the game.

Sorry, hit post before I was done. You are now the only one voting me.

thanks for letting me know

 

 

Ley: Nol should have corrected Pandy himself. He is being silly.

why should I do that?

he's coming at me aggressively but his info is wrong

I have neither have the time nor the interest in correcting him or proving him wrong

I've informed him he's mistaken and asked him to correct it and please ask me again afterwards

not very hard

if he's really interested in an answer (which I'm pretty sure he's not given that he voted me without correcting himself) he'll fix it and ask again

if not...then I'm unconcerned since he's attacking me under false pretenses so why worry about it?

[SBoydW]

Nolder, I would just like to point out your vote is no longer on the train you started after the 3rd vote in the game.

Sorry, hit post before I was done. You are now the only one voting me.

thanks for letting me know

 

 

Ley: Nol should have corrected Pandy himself. He is being silly.

why should I do that?

he's coming at me aggressively but his info is wrong

I have neither have the time nor the interest in correcting him or proving him wrong

I've informed him he's mistaken and asked him to correct it and please ask me again afterwards

not very hard

if he's really interested in an answer (which I'm pretty sure he's not given that he voted me without correcting himself) he'll fix it and ask again

if not...then I'm unconcerned since he's attacking me under false pretenses so why worry about it?

 

Because it may take more than a simple "nu uh you're wrong" to convince people that pandy is in fact wrong.

[Nolder]

if not...then I'm unconcerned since he's attacking me under false pretenses so why worry about it?

 

Because it may take more than a simple "nu uh you're wrong" to convince people that pandy is in fact wrong.

note the underlined part

if you are aware of this (I'd like to think everyone should be since I've pointed it out for you) then why do you need anymore convincing?

[SBoydW]

Fair ladies and gallant gentlemen, I must apologise for not having been here; skyrim and dinner parties have derailed me. I will try to be better.

 

Sir Nolder: Why, having ripped into the good Mr. Soy Boyo for voting amegakure without explicitly wishing to lynch him, did thee then park your vote on Leelou simply because it was a train? (I see that the good Song has already raised this point.) Could you please tell me how voting randomly at the start of day one is better than voting with reason at the start of day one? I don't understand your back-and-forth with Song, especially given that Boyo hardly raised a convincing case on ameg in the first place. Did you want to lynch Leelou?

 

 

I'm guessing that this is the part that you (nolder) are saying that he got out of order (his false pretense)? I don't think that that question was meant to be read chronologically (maybe it was, it's not how I read it though). I read it as him asking, why, if you were attacking me over the whole amega issue, and you felt so strongly about it, did you not put your vote on me.

 

That's how I saw it at least. So why should anyone agree with you're assertion that he's wrong if you won't support your claim. Especially since everyone may not have interpreted the situation the same way as you. That and you didn't really even say what he got out of order, just that he got something out of order. Now I've deduced the above scenario from my interpretation of the statements but, only you can tell us what you say he got wrong.