A common misconception about Moiraine

[Gabriel Kross]

Ah the good old strength of channelers argument :)

Indeed. One can practically win this battle from memory, the number of times it's been fought.

 

 

I don't see any of that as an implication of Moghedien being weak in the Power. Her cautious nature says nothing about her strength in the OP, and nor does her fear of the others. They speak to her nature as a coward. I'm not aware of any correlation between bravery and OP strength. The others speaking lowly of her doesn't say anything about her strength in the Power, it says only that they hold her in contempt, something whcih could be true for many reasons.

 

Moghedien is no more of a coward than Demandred, whom refuses to reveal where he is currently situated. The difference between the two and any other forsaken seen to be "cautious", for that matter (such as Graendal), is clearly power. It is lack of power that attributes to Moghedien's cautious nature.

Moghedien is significantly more of a coward than Demandred. Demandred might be hidden, but that is not evidence of cowardice. Moggy avoids direct confrontation as far as possible. During the War of the power, Demandred resigned from positions as a Governor to take to the field again in his quest to kill LTT. Both are present at the Cleansing, and Moggy does as little as she can, in order to avoid getting shot at. Yes, some of the Chosen are cautious - those who aren't likely fell by the wayside - but Asmo and Moggy are both cowards.

 

Nynaeve shielding her in combat only shows her strength in relation to Nynaeve, not to any of the other Chosen, male or female. Thus it is, as I stated, merely opinion and not fact. Could be she's the weakest. Could be there's two or three weaker. given the evidence you've presented, she could be just behind Lanfear in terms of strength.

 

Nynaeve is stated by either RJ or BS to be average forsaken level.. meaning Moghedien HAS to be at or near the bottom for this "power grid" to make sense.

That still leaves quite a bit of room for manouevre. For example, if she is just compared to the women, Moggy could be in the middle (3rd of 5), a little weaker than Nynaeve, and that could hold true. Despite the complete lack of evidence, people always blithely state that she is weakest, Asmo is the weakest man, etc., as if this was a known fact but whenever challenged, the evidence is always found to be lacking. Always. And this has come up a lot.

 

*Sigh* You are being difficult. There is WAY more evidence to suggest that Moghedien is the weakest of the bunch than most of the other forsaken. By your logic, there is absolutely no concrete evidence that Lanfear is the strongest next to Ishy. There is also no evidence to show how any of the Forsaken stand relative to anyone. In fact, following this trend, it can't even be said that Rand is the most powerful channeler since he hasn't battled every channeler known in WoT to assert himself as the primera.

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

Do you have evidence to support any of that?

 

 

Read the books, it's all there with the exception of Mesaana and Semirhage. BS told us he is pretty sure Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana and that Semirhage is stronger than Nynaeve.

See, when I request evidence, I do usually appreciate evidence. I know, I'm a bit odd like that, asking for things that I want. As it is, you have provided no evidence. Now, let us read a quote: "Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close." So Nynaeve is stronger than Semi, despite you claiming BS said the reverse. Doesn't help your case much, does it? Now, given that I have just proved that your grasp of the available evidence is not what it could be, I would appreciate you actually finding evidence to back up your claims. Because a "take my word for it" from someone who is demonstrably wrong is not worth as much as a "take my word for it" from Mr Ares, that bastion of infallibility and knowledge. And ego, of course, but that goes without saying. Find the quotes from the books or drop it. Your choice.

 

Asmo was considered the weakest of the male Forsaken and he is even with a pre-maxed out Rand.

This is another popular claim, but backed up by no evidence. There is nothing in the books. nothing in the BWB. No RJ or BS quote that I am aware of (and I would actually like to see one). Asmo is only considered the weakest male Chosen by fans, and they base it on the fact that Asmo is considered the weakest male Chosen by fans.

A maxed out Nynaeve is still a level of two below a pre-maxed out Rand.

Moggy was even with a pre-maxed out Nynaeve, she is below Nynaeve now that she has reached her full potential.

 

Tell ya what, YOU provide the evidence against anything I said.

That's not how debates work, generally. You make a claim, you provide evidence to back it up. Call me old fashioned, but I like things that way. Now, it's pretty difficult for me to provide evidence against, given my stance is there is insufficient evidence either way. How do you expect me to prove a negative? I guess you just think that I really am as divine as my username suggests. Now, I could quote the books, in their entirety, and use that as evidence that there is nothing in there to support your point. But that would be time consuming, annoying, and illegal. So i say, you say that evidence exists, I say it doesn't. As there is only one of us who could possibly find evidence to support their viewpoint, either you find evidence to back up your point, or you admit you have no evidence. My point cannot be proved, only disproved. Your point can be proved or disproved. As only you can prove your point, do so.

 

I love how the thread is finally back on topic and then someone callbacks off topic discussions, very annoying if I do say so myself, if you want to continue debating this offtopic discussion please take it elsewhere as this is a thread about Moiraine and not where Nynaeve stands against the forsaken, or where Asmo stands.

[XXX]

We know Ny is stronger than Moggy and very close to Semirhage..so logically Semirhage must be stronger than Moggy. Graendal is weaker than only Lanfear and now Cyndane so that would put her above Ny. The only question is if Mesaana is weaker than Moggy or vice versa.

This makes sense as the authors have told that Ny is among the average forsaken sterength and this would put her right between Lanfear/Graendal and Mesaana/Moggy.

[MasterAblar]

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

I'm just going to point out here, that the quotes that say Lanfear was second strongest to Ishamael came from, I believe, Moiraine and the Aes Sedai. Well, not only do they know next to nothing about the Forsaken, but they know even less about Lanfear, who was the most mysterious of all the Forsaken. Not to mention that the Aes Sedai had no idea that men have the advantage over women in brute strength. Which means that, seeing as they believe men and women are equal in brute strength, Lanfear and Ishamael should be very close, if not equal, in power to them. Also, RJ stated that there were several levels of strength above the strongest women that only men could reach. I find it very doubtfull that there are not male Forsaken at those levels. Otherwise there is a very sharp drop (several levels) in strength from Ishamael to Lanfear.

 

As for Moghedien, she is either weakest or second weakest after Mesaana in my opinion. Brandon was pretty certain that Nyneave was stronger than Mesaana, which is strange if Mesaana is weaker than Moghedien, since Nyneave matched her as soon as tSR. Mesaana also thought she matched up pretty well with Semirhage, but then we don't know if strength in the power is included in that, and even if it is, Mesaana might be lying to herself. Overall I'd tend to think that Mesaana is stronger but it's not certain.

[capuga]

We know Ny is stronger than Moggy and very close to Semirhage..so logically Semirhage must be stronger than Moggy.

 

No, actually all it means is that Nynaeve is stronger than both Semi and Moggy. Brandon didn't give a range of how much stronger Nynaeve was. Which means that Semi and Moggy could both be the same strength. We don't have any direct comparisons so there is no way to know. We also don't have any direct comparisons between Nynaeve, Mesaana, Semi, or Moggy. So for all we have any actual evidence for, Moggy may be as strong as Mesaana as well.

 

Graendal is weaker than only Lanfear and now Cyndane so that would put her above Ny.

 

Actually, all we know is that Graendel is weaker then Cyndane and that that was rare among women. We don't have any other direct comparisons between her and anyone else in the series. No RJ or Brandon quotes. Which means that she could be 2nd behind Lanfear/Cyndane or down around the same level as Semi, Moggy, and Mesaana. There is no evidence to definitively place her in relation to the others.

 

These are the known facts:

1. Nynaeve is stronger than Moggy based on their duels where they were equal when Nynaeve was not at her full potential.

2. Brandon thinks Nynaeve is stronger then Semi.

3. Cyndane is stronger then Graendel based on Graendel POV where she compares herself directly with Cyndane.

 

Every single other ranking is just speculation. This is the point Mr Ares is making. Is Moggy the weakest? Possibly, maybe even probably, based on the way her character is portrayed. But there is no actual evidence that shows her ranking compared to Semi, Mesaana, or Graendel, despite the widespread belief amongst fans.

[Suttree]

Every single other ranking is just speculation. This is the point Mr Ares is making. Is Moggy the weakest? Possibly, maybe even probably, based on the way her character is portrayed. But there is no actual evidence that shows her ranking compared to Semi, Mesaana, or Graendel, despite the widespread belief amongst fans.

 

Indeed, and he did so in classic Ares fashion.

 

@Eternal

 

Sorry mate but this is how it goes around here more often than not, I would just roll with it.

[Sloth]

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

Doesn't matter if they are direct quotes. They could be made out of arrogance or ignorance so we don't know them to be fact. You see, there's a difference between our assumptions and your conjectures. Our assumptions are backed by very circumstantial evidence and numerous implications throughout the books whereas you pull suppositions out of thin air and state them to be just as possible just because there is no evidence to support or deny these claims.

 

Therefore, if we can't make the claim that Moghedien is the weakest female forsaken/weakest forsaken, you can't make the claim that Rand is the most powerful channeler, stands equal to Ishy, that Lanfear is the second strongest channeler/strongest female channeler, that Aginor almost matches Ishy in raw OP strength, etc. In all of these cases, I could say that there isn't reasonable enough evidence and explain why whatever evidence you do have would not suffice since you're literally demanding something as undeniably true as BS stating "Moghedien is INDEED the weakest forsaken" to be convinced.

[baalsmistress]

And, of course, if you ambush someone by shooting balefire at them from concealment. It doens't matter who's stronger

 

I think the time for smallscale power duels has mostly past. We're going to be getting very much more into large scale power battles with dozens or hundreds of channellers on each side.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Funny, I never thought of Thom as a formidable fighter. Sure he can handle himself in any bar fight. And has proven to be pretty good in actual battles, but I haven't seen anything that would even put him about the average warder.

[Mr Ares]

I love how the thread is finally back on topic and then someone callbacks off topic discussions, very annoying if I do say so myself, if you want to continue debating this offtopic discussion please take it elsewhere as this is a thread about Moiraine and not where Nynaeve stands against the forsaken, or where Asmo stands.

If people wanted to talk about Moiraine, they would be. No-one is stopping them. The discussion is here, there is no reason for it to move.

 

 

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

I'm just going to point out here, that the quotes that say Lanfear was second strongest to Ishamael came from, I believe, Moiraine and the Aes Sedai.

And the BWB. We don't know what evidence they have to support this view, so we don't know how accurate it truly is. BS coming out and stating what the rankings of all the Chosen are would be helpful.

Also, RJ stated that there were several levels of strength above the strongest women that only men could reach. I find it very doubtfull that there are not male Forsaken at those levels. Otherwise there is a very sharp drop (several levels) in strength from Ishamael to Lanfear.

I don't find it all that implausible, given how few Chosen there are, and how rare strength like that is anyway. If we were looking at all the AoL Chosen - that is, every channeler who went over to the Shadow, thus likely millions of them - then such an absence would indeed be noteworthy. In a sample size of just 8 men? Not so far fetched.

 

As for Moghedien, she is either weakest or second weakest after Mesaana in my opinion. Brandon was pretty certain that Nyneave was stronger than Mesaana, which is strange if Mesaana is weaker than Moghedien, since Nyneave matched her as soon as tSR.

So nynaeve is tronger than moghedien, and she is stronger than Mesaana. I don't see any comparison between Moggy and Mesaana.

 

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

Doesn't matter if they are direct quotes. They could be made out of arrogance or ignorance so we don't know them to be fact. You see, there's a difference between our assumptions and your conjectures. Our assumptions are backed by very circumstantial evidence and numerous implications throughout the books whereas you pull suppositions out of thin air and state them to be just as possible just because there is no evidence to support or deny these claims.

No, Sloth, the difference is that I have made claims based on the evidence, you have made stuff up. A character can indeed speak in arrogance or ignorance, but there is a massive difference between a quote made in arrogance or ignorance and a complete absence of evidence, or at best some highly dubious interpretations of the evidence. I have quotes to support me, or at the very least a claim that you have no quotes to support you (a claim which is hard for me to find a Jordan or Sanderson quote to back up, for reasons which should be self evident). You have nothing to support you. Where are your quotes? I've asked for evidence, I've seen none.

 

Therefore, if we can't make the claim that Moghedien is the weakest female forsaken/weakest forsaken, you can't make the claim that Rand is the most powerful channeler, stands equal to Ishy, that Lanfear is the second strongest channeler/strongest female channeler, that Aginor almost matches Ishy in raw OP strength, etc. In all of these cases, I could say that there isn't reasonable enough evidence and explain why whatever evidence you do have would not suffice since you're literally demanding something as undeniably true as BS stating "Moghedien is INDEED the weakest forsaken" to be convinced.

A clear statement from BS that Moghedien is the weakest would be nice. Alas, we don't yet have one, nor did RJ ever give us one. We have no quotes from the books stating outright that she is the weakest. We have guesswork, not anything with a basis in the facts. On the other hand, we do have direct quotes for Rand being the strongest, Ishy matching him, Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest. Now, the people making those statements might be misinformed, but we still have the statements. What do we have for Mggy? She acts like a coward, therefore she must be weak. No, she acts like a coward because she's a coward. She's treated with contempt because she's a coward. There is never the slightest hint that they think less of her because she's the weakest, nor Asmo. It is their weak personalities that are despised. You have nothing, yet like so many before you you refuse to admit that. By the way, misusing the word literally is not a tactic that usually persuades me to agree with people. I am not literally demanding something as undeniably true as a BS quote (a strange thing for me to demand, when I don't consider BS statements to be undeniably true - he can be wrong, too unsure to be reliable, etc.). I am literally asking for a shred of evidence. Not pure unadulterated guesswork. A quote. Some logic, a few facts. Something besides "I think it's true, therefore it's true", which is about all you've managed so far. I don't think it's too much to ask.

[Gabriel Kross]

I love how the thread is finally back on topic and then someone callbacks off topic discussions, very annoying if I do say so myself, if you want to continue debating this offtopic discussion please take it elsewhere as this is a thread about Moiraine and not where Nynaeve stands against the forsaken, or where Asmo stands.

If people wanted to talk about Moiraine, they would be. No-one is stopping them. The discussion is here, there is no reason for it to move.

 

 

 

 

 

Except for the fact that this is called thread jacking and pretty much on the bad boy list of things to do, I suggest reading all the forum rules again, just saying I made this thread to talk about Moiraine, if you don't want to talk about Moiraine that's fine, but don't fill up my thread with arguments about other topics

[MasterAblar]

And the BWB. We don't know what evidence they have to support this view, so we don't know how accurate it truly is. BS coming out and stating what the rankings of all the Chosen are would be helpful.

 

The BWB was written as if from the point of view of someone from the Third Age wasn't it? If that's the case then it's the same as the Aes Sedai. They are not aware that there is a difference in strength between men and women (to put very generally). Since they don't know that, then it seems logical for them to assume that the strongest women is as strong, or nearly as strong, as the strongest men. Which is wrong.

 

I don't find it all that implausible, given how few Chosen there are, and how rare strength like that is anyway. If we were looking at all the AoL Chosen - that is, every channeler who went over to the Shadow, thus likely millions of them - then such an absence would indeed be noteworthy. In a sample size of just 8 men? Not so far fetched.

 

Except these 8 were the top Forsaken at the time of the sealing. And it's not like strength was of no importance at all. So if only Ishamael and Aginor were stronger than Lanfear, then that means the 6 other male Forsaken are outside the top 15-20% on the strength scale (considering there are 21 levels of power for women, and several above for men). That doesn't seem very likely to me, especially considering how strong the female Forsaken are amongst women.

 

Asmodean is as strong as Rand at the end of tSR, Rand believed that Rahvin was as strong as himself in tFoH, and an Ashaman estimated the same with Sammael in aCoS. Demandred is said to be almost as strong, just like in everything else, as LTT (at full strength). It's hard to believe that not one of these guys at least, is not in that top 15-20%. For that matter, Balthamel was not severed in the AoL precisely because his strength in the power was rare.

 

It only takes one of them for the Aes Sedai's belief that Lanfear was second strongest to Ishamael to be proven wrong. Considering Aginor is supposed to be very close behind Ishamael in strength, it doesn't seem plausible to me for Lanfear to be even closer, when there's supposed to be several levels above the strongest women, and therefore above Lanfear.

 

So nynaeve is tronger than moghedien, and she is stronger than Mesaana. I don't see any comparison between Moggy and Mesaana.

 

It's the fact that he wasn't sure that is strange to me. It's obvious Nyneave is stronger than Moghedien. So therefore how could he be unsure whether or not Nyneave is stronger than Mesaana, if Mesaana is weaker than Moghedien?

[Suttree]

I love how the thread is finally back on topic and then someone callbacks off topic discussions, very annoying if I do say so myself, if you want to continue debating this offtopic discussion please take it elsewhere as this is a thread about Moiraine and not where Nynaeve stands against the forsaken, or where Asmo stands.

If people wanted to talk about Moiraine, they would be. No-one is stopping them. The discussion is here, there is no reason for it to move.

 

 

 

 

 

Except for the fact that this is called thread jacking and pretty much on the bad boy list of things to do, I suggest reading all the forum rules again, just saying I made this thread to talk about Moiraine, if you don't want to talk about Moiraine that's fine, but don't fill up my thread with arguments about other topics

 

Look Eternal your somewhat new around here, trust me when I tell you that you're not going to win this battle mate...

[Gabriel Kross]

I love how the thread is finally back on topic and then someone callbacks off topic discussions, very annoying if I do say so myself, if you want to continue debating this offtopic discussion please take it elsewhere as this is a thread about Moiraine and not where Nynaeve stands against the forsaken, or where Asmo stands.

If people wanted to talk about Moiraine, they would be. No-one is stopping them. The discussion is here, there is no reason for it to move.

 

 

 

 

 

Except for the fact that this is called thread jacking and pretty much on the bad boy list of things to do, I suggest reading all the forum rules again, just saying I made this thread to talk about Moiraine, if you don't want to talk about Moiraine that's fine, but don't fill up my thread with arguments about other topics

 

Look Eternal your somewhat new around here, trust me when I tell you that you're not going to win this battle mate...

 

I have already brought it up to the moderators and admin, if it is not solved by the end of the day I will be readressing it to the admin I don't feel I should have to post a new thread because people can't follow the rules, just so that thread can be jacked as well

[Sloth]

No, Sloth, the difference is that I have made claims based on the evidence, you have made stuff up. A character can indeed speak in arrogance or ignorance, but there is a massive difference between a quote made in arrogance or ignorance and a complete absence of evidence, or at best some highly dubious interpretations of the evidence. I have quotes to support me, or at the very least a claim that you have no quotes to support you (a claim which is hard for me to find a Jordan or Sanderson quote to back up, for reasons which should be self evident). You have nothing to support you. Where are your quotes? I've asked for evidence, I've seen none.

 

I'm talking about the misguided claims that Moghedien could stand equal to Semirhage or Mesaana in the OP since apparently there is no evidence to suggest it when in fact there IS evidence-- circumstantial evidence and implications-- to suggest that she is the weakest.

 

Who are you to say what suffices as evidence and what does not? Statements made out of arrogance can be just as misleading as implications made from subtle nuances in the books if not more. After all, it's easier and takes less effort to make a red herring out of a simple statement born from misconception and rumor than it would be from slight innuendos constantly built up from a reoccurring theme.

 

A clear statement from BS that Moghedien is the weakest would be nice. Alas, we don't yet have one, nor did RJ ever give us one. We have no quotes from the books stating outright that she is the weakest. We have guesswork, not anything with a basis in the facts. On the other hand, we do have direct quotes for Rand being the strongest, Ishy matching him, Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest. Now, the people making those statements might be misinformed, but we still have the statements. What do we have for Mggy? She acts like a coward, therefore she must be weak. No, she acts like a coward because she's a coward. She's treated with contempt because she's a coward. There is never the slightest hint that they think less of her because she's the weakest, nor Asmo. It is their weak personalities that are despised. You have nothing, yet like so many before you you refuse to admit that. By the way, misusing the word literally is not a tactic that usually persuades me to agree with people. I am not literally demanding something as undeniably true as a BS quote (a strange thing for me to demand, when I don't consider BS statements to be undeniably true - he can be wrong, too unsure to be reliable, etc.). I am literally asking for a shred of evidence. Not pure unadulterated guesswork. A quote. Some logic, a few facts. Something besides "I think it's true, therefore it's true", which is about all you've managed so far. I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

You're setting me up to fail knowing there is no direct quote from any of the cast of characters that say "Moghedien is the weakest forsaken" and therefore tainting my well of evidence, overshadowing the fact that a direct quote isn't any more evidence than implications in the book.

 

That Ishy matches Rand, Rand is the strongest and Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest are all speculation. Until all of them battle to the death, it is still speculation... which is why you're "literally demanding a WoG quote" to be convinced.

[Suttree]

I'm talking about the misguided claims that Moghedien could stand equal to Semirhage or Mesaana in the OP since apparently there is no evidence to suggest it when in fact there IS evidence-- circumstantial evidence and implications-- to suggest that she is the weakest.

 

If you feel this is the case it might be helpful to summarize and provide it in making a case as to why you feel so strongly she is indeed the weakest.

 

 

That Ishy matches Rand, Rand is the strongest and Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest are all speculation. Until all of them battle to the death, it is still speculation... which is why you're "literally demanding a WoG quote" to be convinced.

 

There is evidence for the above claims however and it is backed up quite clearly in the BWB.

[MasterAblar]

There is evidence for the above claims however and it is backed up quite clearly in the BWB.

 

Except the BWB was written with the knowledge of a person from the third age. It contains what is believed to be true by those people, not necessarily what is true.

[Suttree]

There is evidence for the above claims however and it is backed up quite clearly in the BWB.

 

Except the BWB was written with the knowledge of a person from the third age. It contains what is believed to be true by those people, not necessarily what is true.

 

Look, if it actually came from a scholar that may be the case. But the BWB was written from RJ's notes to supplement and flesh out our understanding of the world. There may be some misdirection(although I would be interested to see any glaring errors or examples). The fact remains that if you can match textual evidence with claims from BWB their is very little reason to believe it wouldn't be true.

 

The problem when people make your claim in relation to the BWB is if there was false info listed for every time someone tries to denounce it because it doesn't fit their theory or a point they are trying to make, there wouldn't be one shred of truth in the entire book.

[Mr Ares]

And the BWB. We don't know what evidence they have to support this view, so we don't know how accurate it truly is. BS coming out and stating what the rankings of all the Chosen are would be helpful.

 

The BWB was written as if from the point of view of someone from the Third Age wasn't it? If that's the case then it's the same as the Aes Sedai. They are not aware that there is a difference in strength between men and women (to put very generally). Since they don't know that, then it seems logical for them to assume that the strongest women is as strong, or nearly as strong, as the strongest men. Which is wrong.

As I say, we don't know what evidence the BWB's claim is based, nor do we know what evidence Moiraine's claim is based on. Did they find something stating "Lanfear is as strongas a woman can be", and therefore take from that that she is the second strongest Chosen, vying with Aginor, and behind Ishamael"? Doubtful. While the information from the AS in this instance or from the BWB could be wrong, there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

 

I don't find it all that implausible, given how few Chosen there are, and how rare strength like that is anyway. If we were looking at all the AoL Chosen - that is, every channeler who went over to the Shadow, thus likely millions of them - then such an absence would indeed be noteworthy. In a sample size of just 8 men? Not so far fetched.

 

Except these 8 were the top Forsaken at the time of the sealing. And it's not like strength was of no importance at all. So if only Ishamael and Aginor were stronger than Lanfear, then that means the 6 other male Forsaken are outside the top 15-20% on the strength scale (considering there are 21 levels of power for women, and several above for men). That doesn't seem very likely to me, especially considering how strong the female Forsaken are amongst women.

Strength in the Power was not a hugely important factor in determining rankings amongst the Chosen. People would rise and fall based on their accomplishments, their politicial abilities, and their ability to destroy their opponents. Also, RJ was vague enough that we can't really judge how big a gap there was between strongest man and strongest woman, how big a jump those "several levels" really indicates. It could indicate that aside from Ishy and Aginor they are outside the top 5% of the strength scale. After all, no-one said levels had to be evenly spaced.

 

So nynaeve is tronger than moghedien, and she is stronger than Mesaana. I don't see any comparison between Moggy and Mesaana.

 

It's the fact that he wasn't sure that is strange to me. It's obvious Nyneave is stronger than Moghedien. So therefore how could he be unsure whether or not Nyneave is stronger than Mesaana, if Mesaana is weaker than Moghedien?

Well, Sanderson's knowledge of the books and the notes is not perfect. He could be unsure simply because he hasn't committed the strength rankings of the Chosen to memory (I know, how selfish). If he can't remember off the top of his head who is stronger, then he might not be sure of the comparison to Nynaeve.

 

 

No, Sloth, the difference is that I have made claims based on the evidence, you have made stuff up. A character can indeed speak in arrogance or ignorance, but there is a massive difference between a quote made in arrogance or ignorance and a complete absence of evidence, or at best some highly dubious interpretations of the evidence. I have quotes to support me, or at the very least a claim that you have no quotes to support you (a claim which is hard for me to find a Jordan or Sanderson quote to back up, for reasons which should be self evident). You have nothing to support you. Where are your quotes? I've asked for evidence, I've seen none.

 

I'm talking about the misguided claims that Moghedien could stand equal to Semirhage or Mesaana in the OP since apparently there is no evidence to suggest it when in fact there IS evidence-- circumstantial evidence and implications-- to suggest that she is the weakest.

 

Who are you to say what suffices as evidence and what does not? Statements made out of arrogance can be just as misleading as implications made from subtle nuances in the books if not more. After all, it's easier and takes less effort to make a red herring out of a simple statement born from misconception and rumor than it would be from slight innuendos constantly built up from a reoccurring theme.

And you haven't shown any strong implication or circumstantial evidence that she is the weakest. Now, you can infer any number of things that don't necessarily have anythng to do with what the author intended you to read into it, but the stronger the implication the firmer your foundation. Is the author really subtly suggesting something, or are you reading something into it that isn't there? This is harder to argue the more firmly you are battered about the head with the intended implication. As it is, I don't see the "evidence" you have put forward as suggesting what you claim it suggests. Therefore you have nothing. Nothing clear and unambiguous, nothing solid, nothing that is even very likely. Nothing at all. If we have no evidence as to how Moghedien, Mesaana and Semirhage compare, then we have no evidence. If we have evidence, post it.

 

A clear statement from BS that Moghedien is the weakest would be nice. Alas, we don't yet have one, nor did RJ ever give us one. We have no quotes from the books stating outright that she is the weakest. We have guesswork, not anything with a basis in the facts. On the other hand, we do have direct quotes for Rand being the strongest, Ishy matching him, Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest. Now, the people making those statements might be misinformed, but we still have the statements. What do we have for Mggy? She acts like a coward, therefore she must be weak. No, she acts like a coward because she's a coward. She's treated with contempt because she's a coward. There is never the slightest hint that they think less of her because she's the weakest, nor Asmo. It is their weak personalities that are despised. You have nothing, yet like so many before you you refuse to admit that. By the way, misusing the word literally is not a tactic that usually persuades me to agree with people. I am not literally demanding something as undeniably true as a BS quote (a strange thing for me to demand, when I don't consider BS statements to be undeniably true - he can be wrong, too unsure to be reliable, etc.). I am literally asking for a shred of evidence. Not pure unadulterated guesswork. A quote. Some logic, a few facts. Something besides "I think it's true, therefore it's true", which is about all you've managed so far. I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

You're setting me up to fail knowing there is no direct quote from any of the cast of characters that say "Moghedien is the weakest forsaken" and therefore tainting my well of evidence, overshadowing the fact that a direct quote isn't any more evidence than implications in the book.

Then post some implications from the book. You haven't even done that much as yet, because what you have put forward doesn't imply what you claim it implies.

 

That Ishy matches Rand, Rand is the strongest and Lanfear and Aginor being the next strongest are all speculation. Until all of them battle to the death, it is still speculation... which is why you're "literally demanding a WoG quote" to be convinced.

A battle to the death wouldn't help matters any, as it is entirely possible to kill someone who is stronger than you. And a direct quote is not specualtion, it is a direct quote. No speculation is needed. Now, the evidence we have been given might be wrong. Sanderson could always come forward and state that actually, Asmo was stronger than Ishy, he was just really good at hiding it. And it is, of course, completely true that he must be because of all the subtle implications which I cannot be wrong about because I claim they subtly imply it. We have evidence short of a WoG quote to say that Ishy is strongest. We have no reason to believe this is untrue. Therefore, we accept that he is the strongest until we have reason not to. We have no evidece suggesting Moggy is the weakest. A WoG quote or some other evidence suggesting such a thing is desirable before we can place her at the bottom with any degree of certainty beyond sheer guesswork. Your way of ranking them is about as sure as picking names out of a hat.

[MasterAblar]

Look, if it actually came from a scholar that may be the case. But the BWB was written from RJ's notes to supplement and flesh out our understanding of the world. There may be some misdirection(although I would be interested to see any glaring errors or examples). The fact remains that if you can match textual evidence with claims from BWB their is very little reason to believe it wouldn't be true.

 

The problem when people make your claim in relation to the BWB is if there was false info listed for every time someone tries to denounce it because it doesn't fit their theory or a point they are trying to make, there wouldn't be one shred of truth in the entire book.

 

If those textual claims are made on shaky foundations, then I see no reason to believe that they are absolutely true. Yes the BWB was written to flesh out the WoT world, but that doesn't change the fact that some things found in it may not be true.

 

I don't have the BWB in the first place, so I know very little of what's in it. However, the claim that Lanfear was strongest after Ishamael is no more certain when said in the BWB than when it is said by Moiraine. Both have false knowledge (women and men being equal in strength) which will have influenced their belief.

 

As I say, we don't know what evidence the BWB's claim is based, nor do we know what evidence Moiraine's claim is based on. Did they find something stating "Lanfear is as strongas a woman can be", and therefore take from that that she is the second strongest Chosen, vying with Aginor, and behind Ishamael"? Doubtful. While the information from the AS in this instance or from the BWB could be wrong, there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

 

 

There is no evidence to suggest that it is right.

 

I don't have the BWB so I need to ask: does it say Lanfear is uncontested second to Ishamael, or does it say she and Aginor are vying for that place? If it is the first, than I do not see how that claim can possibly be true, when you have two Forsaken like Aginor and Demandred who are said to be very close behind LTT in strength.

 

And there is evidence. First of all there is of course Asmodean's revelation of the difference in strength between men and women, which to me put's Lanfear's position as second strongest in big doubt. But there is also Rahvin stating that he or Sammael could overwhelm Lanfear face to face. While he could just be lying to himself (although it's a pretty big lie when you consider that she should be according to you second strongest after Ishamael), what reason would he have to mention Sammael? He also says Lanfear and Greandal would link if he or Sammael tried anything. What reason would Lanfear have to link with Greandal, whom she does not like at all, if she had nothing to worry about fighting Rahvin or Sammael in close quarters? Also according to RJ, Rand could have defeated Lanfear in Cairhien had he let LTT fight. Letting LTT take over, would have increased his skill, knowledge, and experience, but certainly not his strength. And yet he could have defeated her face to face, which means he had to have been stronger than her at that point, even knowing how skilled at fighting LTT was (and Lanfear was pretty damn good at figthing as well, and had just as much knowledge and experience as LTT. Considering that he was equal to Asmodean, just one book before, that he believed himself to be equal to Rahvin just moments after his battle with Lanfear, that an Ashaman thought he and Sammael were about equal at the end of aCoS, and, finally, that Osangar was as strong as Rand just moments before Rand went off to fight Sammael (which means that either the Ashaman was slightly off about Sammael's stength, or that Osangar was acutally holding back a little so as to not draw suspicion, or that Osangar and Sammael are acually equal in strength, which is rather unlikely), it seems to me there are plenty of reasons to believe that the BWB and Moiraine were mistaken and there actually are male Forsaken who were stronger than Lanfear.

 

Levels of strength stop at 21 for women and go on for several (let's say 4) for men, and stop at 25. That means that if Lanfear is indeed second strongest after Ishamael, then there are no men on levels: 24, 23, 22, and 21. And we're talking about the top Forsaken, two of which (Aginor and Demandred are said to be almost as strong as LTT, so level 25). Unless there is like a 1% difference in strength between levels down to level 20, then I don't see how Aginor can be nearly as strong as LTT, and quite honestly there would be no point at all for levels 22, 23, and 24 since there will be no channellers at those levels. If the strength levels are spread evenly (say 4% between each), then you come out to a 20% difference between LTT and Aginor, who is on level 20. If I'm 20% slower than Usain Bolt on the 100m, then I am most certainly not close behind him in speed.

 

Strength in the Power was not a hugely important factor in determining rankings amongst the Chosen. People would rise and fall based on their accomplishments, their politicial abilities, and their ability to destroy their opponents. Also, RJ was vague enough that we can't really judge how big a gap there was between strongest man and strongest woman, how big a jump those "several levels" really indicates. It could indicate that aside from Ishy and Aginor they are outside the top 5% of the strength scale. After all, no-one said levels had to be evenly spaced.

 

Again for Aginor: is he vying with Lanfear for second strongest, or is Lanfear second strongest in the BWB?

 

Strength did not decide everything (afterall Aginor got little respect from the other Forsaken), but when you look at how strong the women are then you can tell that it wasn't unimportant either. Lanfear is as strong as a woman can be, Greandal has almost none ahead of her, Semirhage is nearly as strong as Nyneave who we know is extremely strong, and Moghedien was equal to Nyneave at the end of tSR, and at that point Nyneave was stronger than Egwene, who was stronger than Moiraine, who was nearly the strongest Aes Sedai alive.

 

As for levels not being evenly spaced, there would be little point to making such a scale. RJ mainly used it to keep track of who had to defer to who among the Aes Sedai. A scale that jumped 5% here, and then 10% there, and then only 2% here, would be quite pointless. Why make a scale that isn't evenly spaced?

 

Well, Sanderson's knowledge of the books and the notes is not perfect. He could be unsure simply because he hasn't committed the strength rankings of the Chosen to memory (I know, how selfish). If he can't remember off the top of his head who is stronger, then he might not be sure of the comparison to Nynaeve.

 

Yeah, it's true that he may not be certain, but, while certainly none of them are conclusive, it's little things like this that to me suggest that Moghedien is weaker.

[Suttree]

If those textual claims are made on shaky foundations, then I see no reason to believe that they are absolutely true. Yes the BWB was written to flesh out the WoT world, but that doesn't change the fact that some things found in it may not be true.

 

I don't have the BWB in the first place, so I know very little of what's in it. However, the claim that Lanfear was strongest after Ishamael is no more certain when said in the BWB than when it is said by Moiraine. \

 

What is said in the BWB is...

 

Ishy

Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by non but Lews Therin Telamon himself.

 

Aginor

The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

 

Lanfear

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

So no it isn't a totally wrong claim like people make it out to be, especially with the knowledge we have of M/W to supplement it, much like the textual evidence that backs these rankings.

 

Again I would be very interested in seeing anything from the BWB that is as blatantly wrong as people imply when defending a pov that doesn't fit with what is written therein.

[MasterAblar]

Lanfear

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

So no it isn't a totally wrong claim like people make it out to be, especially with the knowledge we have of M/W to supplement it, much like the textual evidence that backs these rankings.

 

Again I would be very interested in seeing anything from the BWB that is as blatantly wrong as people imply when defending a pov that doesn't fit with what is written therein.

 

Thanks. To me the quote about Lanfear shows that they don't know a whole lot, and are rather uncertain about her. It seems to me that they think she's extremely powerful but they're not sure how powerful.

 

Well, I don't usually refer to what the BWB says, simply because I don't own one. But any information that comes from it is in my opinion perfectly valid, though I make sure to remember that it's written from the PoV of a third age scholer. And in Lanfear's case I think it's quite relevant to remember that it's written from that PoV.

[balefireruinssteaks]

uhm...well I had to go back to page one to figure out what the bloody topic was in the first place.

 

So...just my own recap:

 

I think Moiraine, who was raised in a palace as a Carhienin noblewoman from a powerful House, probably had minimal if any hand-to-hand fighting knowledge. Tuon and the Seanchan noblewomen seem to be the only royalty that actually bothered to teach fighting - Tuon, Selucia and other women in Seanchan don't seem out of place with fighting techniques, and Aiel women of course aren't out of place but by and large (except for perhaps Berlaine and Faile) it seems that noblewomen are not given to fighting.

 

This is probably why Moiraine sought out a Warder, and her knowledge of Malkier made Lan an excellent choice. Before Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha and Nyneave...Moiraine and Siuan were the most powerful channelers below Cadsuane - and I think that gap wasn't as big after Moiraine reached her potential (In New Spring she mentions that "only one woman could be THAT far above her" - and her battle with Merean lacks because Moiraine has not maxed out yet; she has to resort to a knife to win.)

 

The "misconception" was that Moiraine's power-zap and Lanfear's power-zap were identical...but the Aelfinn and Eelfinn were greedy and drained Lanfear too fast, killing her. I don't quite understand the body transfer - I guess if Lanfear were reincarnated naturally her power level would have been restored fully, but because she was transmigrated then she was left with the lessened-One Power ability. (Or...the theory that Lanfear was SO strong because she utilized angreal to hide her true strength - which was likely Cyndane's strength.) In any case, Moiraine's power was slowly drained, and the angreal used to enhance this experience for the Aelfinn/Eelfinn. When she is rescued she sits far below her full level (lower than an Accepted), but the angreal (which is almost powerful enough to be sa'angreal) allows her to channel "more powerfully than before I was captured"

 

I think Moiraine, with the angreal, would not sit in the category of a Forsaken. I guess when we here "powerful" we automatically think Nyneave, Alivia, Graendal, etc. But Moiraine's concept of what is "powerful" really rested lower. She had only interacted with Nynaeve and Lanfear and Cadsuane so "powerful" to her could be Egwene's strength, Elayne's strength, Aviendha's strength. Or even Cadsuane's strength. I think she sits like among those, or maybe even slightly above them - but more than likely at that level. It's doubtful to me that channeling at Romanda's strength would be considered "powerful" by Moiraine.

 

So...I guess that's it. I also think Moiraine is a good leader...she has shiny hair.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

So...I guess that's it. I also think Moiraine is a good leader...she has shiny hair.

 

Hahahahahaha... thanks for that. I really needed a laugh after all this intensity. Gotta remember that. Does "Good leaders have shiny hair." Come from Sun Tzu?

 

 

I think the truest statement any of us can make is that Moiraine's current strength, both without and with the angreal she currently has is unknown because we don't have ANY proper yardstick to measure the strength of any channeler.

 

As to other claims that have been made in this thread:

 

The BWB is, at best a secondary source. Consider anything it says as nothing but speculation unless there is a supporting quote from one or more of the books themselves.

 

With that caveat, here's some of what the BWB has to say:

 

Ishamael: Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, and Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command. Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but Lews Therin Telamon himself.

 

Aginor: The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

 

Demandred: "Almost" seemed to be the story of his life. Born one day after Lews Therin he had almost as much strength and almost as much skill. He spent years almost equalling Lews Therin's accomplishments and fame.

 

Lanfear: The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

The only part of any of that that is backed up by a statement from the books is Cyndane being surprised that Alivia ( with Nynaeve's angreal set) was stronger than she had been before her time with the Finns. Something that Cyndane considered impossible.

 

Thus, all is conjecture and nothing is proven.

 

I believe the viewpoint of "the authors" of the BWB was that of 4th Age Scholars, not 3rd Age. But I cannot prove that.

 

One of many reasons why Harriet will have an Encyclopedia to publish after all the books have been written. Keeping it all as murky and unprovable as possible provides her with job security, so I doubt that Sanderson will be clearing up any of the fine points either.

[Mr Ares]

Look, if it actually came from a scholar that may be the case. But the BWB was written from RJ's notes to supplement and flesh out our understanding of the world. There may be some misdirection(although I would be interested to see any glaring errors or examples). The fact remains that if you can match textual evidence with claims from BWB their is very little reason to believe it wouldn't be true.

 

The problem when people make your claim in relation to the BWB is if there was false info listed for every time someone tries to denounce it because it doesn't fit their theory or a point they are trying to make, there wouldn't be one shred of truth in the entire book.

 

If those textual claims are made on shaky foundations, then I see no reason to believe that they are absolutely true. Yes the BWB was written to flesh out the WoT world, but that doesn't change the fact that some things found in it may not be true.

 

I don't have the BWB in the first place, so I know very little of what's in it. However, the claim that Lanfear was strongest after Ishamael is no more certain when said in the BWB than when it is said by Moiraine. Both have false knowledge (women and men being equal in strength) which will have influenced their belief.

You don't need to accept them as absolutely true, only as most probably true. We have statements to support it being true, precious little to contradict it.

 

As I say, we don't know what evidence the BWB's claim is based, nor do we know what evidence Moiraine's claim is based on. Did they find something stating "Lanfear is as strongas a woman can be", and therefore take from that that she is the second strongest Chosen, vying with Aginor, and behind Ishamael"? Doubtful. While the information from the AS in this instance or from the BWB could be wrong, there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

 

 

There is no evidence to suggest that it is right.

Which would imply that you treat every source, no matter how reliable, as wrong until proven otherwise. Any particular reason why? The BWB is a very reliable source, just not completely reliable.

 

I don't have the BWB so I need to ask: does it say Lanfear is uncontested second to Ishamael, or does it say she and Aginor are vying for that place? If it is the first, than I do not see how that claim can possibly be true, when you have two Forsaken like Aginor and Demandred who are said to be very close behind LTT in strength.

 

And there is evidence. First of all there is of course Asmodean's revelation of the difference in strength between men and women, which to me put's Lanfear's position as second strongest in big doubt.

Because men are stronger than women? Hardly, as we know Ishamael is stronger than her anyway.

But there is also Rahvin stating that he or Sammael could overwhelm Lanfear face to face. While he could just be lying to himself (although it's a pretty big lie when you consider that she should be according to you second strongest after Ishamael), what reason would he have to mention Sammael? He also says Lanfear and Greandal would link if he or Sammael tried anything. What reason would Lanfear have to link with Greandal, whom she does not like at all, if she had nothing to worry about fighting Rahvin or Sammael in close quarters?

Men cannot sense the strength of women directly, nor women of men, unless they link. So unless Rahvin and Lanfear have linked at some point in the past, he doesn't know how strong she is, he can only estimate. On the other hand, he only needs to be in the vicinity of Sammael when he's drawing on the Power to know how strong he is. It's harder to lie to yourself about. It's also harder to accept the lie that two women as strong as Lanfear and Graendal are weaker than him when linked. Him being stronger than Lanfear is the easiest lie out of stronger than Lanfear, stronger than Sammael, and stronger than both women.

Also according to RJ, Rand could have defeated Lanfear in Cairhien had he let LTT fight. Letting LTT take over, would have increased his skill, knowledge, and experience, but certainly not his strength. And yet he could have defeated her face to face, which means he had to have been stronger than her at that point, even knowing how skilled at fighting LTT was (and Lanfear was pretty damn good at figthing as well, and had just as much knowledge and experience as LTT.

You don't have to be stronger than someone to beat them in a fight.

Considering that he was equal to Asmodean, just one book before, that he believed himself to be equal to Rahvin just moments after his battle with Lanfear, that an Ashaman thought he and Sammael were about equal at the end of aCoS, and, finally, that Osangar was as strong as Rand just moments before Rand went off to fight Sammael (which means that either the Ashaman was slightly off about Sammael's stength, or that Osangar was acutally holding back a little so as to not draw suspicion, or that Osangar and Sammael are acually equal in strength, which is rather unlikely), it seems to me there are plenty of reasons to believe that the BWB and Moiraine were mistaken and there actually are male Forsaken who were stronger than Lanfear.

A battlefield is not the best place to gauge someone's strength in the Power - Sammael arrived and proceeded to lay an army low. It's not like anyone was able to get close and judge effectively how well he matched with Rand. That leaves room for more than slightly off about his strength. Also, Rand and Asmo were equally matched when drawing through the CK. Do you have a quote suggesting they were equally matched in strength without assistance?

 

Levels of strength stop at 21 for women and go on for several (let's say 4) for men, and stop at 25. That means that if Lanfear is indeed second strongest after Ishamael, then there are no men on levels: 24, 23, 22, and 21. And we're talking about the top Forsaken, two of which (Aginor and Demandred are said to be almost as strong as LTT, so level 25). Unless there is like a 1% difference in strength between levels down to level 20, then I don't see how Aginor can be nearly as strong as LTT, and quite honestly there would be no point at all for levels 22, 23, and 24 since there will be no channellers at those levels. If the strength levels are spread evenly (say 4% between each), then you come out to a 20% difference between LTT and Aginor, who is on level 20. If I'm 20% slower than Usain Bolt on the 100m, then I am most certainly not close behind him in speed.

Why should we say four levels? Why not two? So that leaves only one blank level between Ishy and Aginor/Lanfear. Also, there can be a reason for those levels as there are more male channelers than just the Chosen - what if RJ wanted a level or two to slot Taim or Logain in? Also, Aginor should be on level 21 if he is vying with Lanfear.

 

Strength in the Power was not a hugely important factor in determining rankings amongst the Chosen. People would rise and fall based on their accomplishments, their politicial abilities, and their ability to destroy their opponents. Also, RJ was vague enough that we can't really judge how big a gap there was between strongest man and strongest woman, how big a jump those "several levels" really indicates. It could indicate that aside from Ishy and Aginor they are outside the top 5% of the strength scale. After all, no-one said levels had to be evenly spaced.

 

Again for Aginor: is he vying with Lanfear for second strongest, or is Lanfear second strongest in the BWB?

 

Strength did not decide everything (afterall Aginor got little respect from the other Forsaken), but when you look at how strong the women are then you can tell that it wasn't unimportant either. Lanfear is as strong as a woman can be, Greandal has almost none ahead of her, Semirhage is nearly as strong as Nyneave who we know is extremely strong, and Moghedien was equal to Nyneave at the end of tSR, and at that point Nyneave was stronger than Egwene, who was stronger than Moiraine, who was nearly the strongest Aes Sedai alive.

 

As for levels not being evenly spaced, there would be little point to making such a scale. RJ mainly used it to keep track of who had to defer to who among the Aes Sedai. A scale that jumped 5% here, and then 10% there, and then only 2% here, would be quite pointless. Why make a scale that isn't evenly spaced?

You've already said why - RJ made the scale for AS strength rankings. So he needs the most levels in bands occupied by AS, to better represent subtle differences in strength, but he needs rather less in bands with no AS, and few if any channelers. He could ditch the bottom 30% with a couple of "too weak to be AS" levels, whereas an even distribution would surely dictate that the weakest third of channeling strengths would take up a third of the levels - 7, on a 21 level scale. It should be noted that 13th Depository's list has AS at levels 4-14 (rising to level 18 if you include Nynaeve, and 19 for Sharina). And in case you were wondering, RJ stated on his blog that "Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell curve", so that 30% isn't just a number I made up.

 

Well, Sanderson's knowledge of the books and the notes is not perfect. He could be unsure simply because he hasn't committed the strength rankings of the Chosen to memory (I know, how selfish). If he can't remember off the top of his head who is stronger, then he might not be sure of the comparison to Nynaeve.

 

Yeah, it's true that he may not be certain, but, while certainly none of them are conclusive, it's little things like this that to me suggest that Moghedien is weaker.

Indeed. To me, little things like that aren't indicative of anything much.

[yoniy0]

Excuse me, but just because I've been otherwise engaged for a time is no reason for all you guys to be telling @Eternal Phoenix that he should just forget about site guidelines because of the way things are done around here. Our rules are exactly for the purpose of regulating how things should be done.

 

While I don't find the topic of characters' strength in the OP so far removed from the topic of this thread, it would be nice to respect the OP's wishes when diverting to things clearly unrelated (Moridin's strength, for example). So what I'm saying is this - feel free to comment on characters' strength as far as it relates to the world Moiraine would have to operate in, but don't take it too far. In case that wasn't clear, I intend to enforce this suggestion, so if you want to keep talking about OP-strength in general, take it elsewhere (there's an abundance of topics to choose from). Otherwise, the spanking will commence!

 

Now, to the issue at hand. I only read the first and last couple of pages, so perhaps what I have to say has been mentioned already, but what the hell - Moiraine's innate strength does matter, regardless of her angreal. For example, if she were to be caught off guard, almost any channeler could hold her Shielded, since the angreal doesn't factor in until she has a chance to tap it.