A common misconception about Moiraine

[Sloth]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's been implied that she is the weakest female forsaken if not the weakest forsaken. First there's her cautious nature, which, you can argue is overlooked by the fact that she refuses to take a chance with even those who are weaker than her in the OP, such as Egwene and Elayne. There's the fact that up until the time that she was mindtrapped, she was deathly afraid of the other forsaken, choosing to watch them from the shadows rather than meet face-to-face. There's the fact that the other female forsaken spoke lowly of her. And there's the fact that an Accepted Nynaeve was able to shield her in combat. The evidence is pretty compelling. Honestly, there's less evidence to suggest how Semirhage and Mesaana stand relative to Moghedien. Thus far, though, I can safely conclude that they are stronger than her in the OP.

[Finnssss22]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's between Mesaana and Moggy as to who is the weakest in the One Power, that is a fact.

Every single male Forsaken was close to Rand or pre-maxed out Rand and either level is quite a few levels up on Nynaeve.

Out of the female Forsaken is has been stated that Lanfear/Cyndane stands alone with Graendal and Semirhage just below her but still above or on par with Nynaeve.

Pre-maxed out potential Nynaeve was on par with Moggy, she has since passed her.

We were flat out told that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Therefore, it's between Mesaana and Moggy for the weakest.

End of story.

[Sloth]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's between Mesaana and Moggy as to who is the weakest in the One Power, that is a fact.

Every single male Forsaken was close to Rand or pre-maxed out Rand and either level is quite a few levels up on Nynaeve.

Out of the female Forsaken is has been stated that Lanfear/Cyndane stands alone with Graendal and Semirhage just below her but still above or on par with Nynaeve.

Pre-maxed out potential Nynaeve was on par with Moggy, she has since passed her.

We were flat out told that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Therefore, it's between Mesaana and Moggy for the weakest.

End of story.

 

Out of curiosity, where does it say that Mesaana is stronger than Nynaeve? Also, both Lanfear and reincarnated Lanfear in the form of Cyndane are much stronger than Nynaeve. Nynaeve has been stated to be average forsaken level, probably strong female forsaken level. So, she stands above Moghedien and Mesaana, possibly above Semirhage, but definitely below Graendal, Cyndane, and Lanfear.

[Kahsm]

While it would suck for Moiraine, it brings up the question of whether or not her (sa')angreal would be better used with someone else. Nynaeve perhaps could make better use of it.

 

Are you assuming that (sa')angreal multiply base power, not add some additional amount? Anyway, if Nynaeve needed an *angreal, she could probably just borrow one from the Tower's stores. I doubt that anyone would let present Moiraine do so, given the Tower's strength based prejudice.

 

 

Doesn't matter either way. Just to pull numbers out of the air as an example, if Moir were at 2 and the angreal adds 10, but Nynaeve is already 11,

you're looking at an Aes Sedai who's at 12 (normal top-end strength) or one who's at 21 (wtf-pwn-ing strength)...

[Gabriel Kross]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's between Mesaana and Moggy as to who is the weakest in the One Power, that is a fact.

Every single male Forsaken was close to Rand or pre-maxed out Rand and either level is quite a few levels up on Nynaeve.

Out of the female Forsaken is has been stated that Lanfear/Cyndane stands alone with Graendal and Semirhage just below her but still above or on par with Nynaeve.

Pre-maxed out potential Nynaeve was on par with Moggy, she has since passed her.

We were flat out told that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Therefore, it's between Mesaana and Moggy for the weakest.

End of story.

 

Asmodean was no where near Rand's strength, he only had knowledge of weaves over Rand, granted Rand was nowhere near potential in TSR when he faced Asmo but his power matched if not exceeded Asmo's power w/o the fat man angreal

[Finnssss22]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's between Mesaana and Moggy as to who is the weakest in the One Power, that is a fact.

Every single male Forsaken was close to Rand or pre-maxed out Rand and either level is quite a few levels up on Nynaeve.

Out of the female Forsaken is has been stated that Lanfear/Cyndane stands alone with Graendal and Semirhage just below her but still above or on par with Nynaeve.

Pre-maxed out potential Nynaeve was on par with Moggy, she has since passed her.

We were flat out told that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Therefore, it's between Mesaana and Moggy for the weakest.

End of story.

 

Asmodean was no where near Rand's strength, he only had knowledge of weaves over Rand, granted Rand was nowhere near potential in TSR when he faced Asmo but his power matched if not exceeded Asmo's power w/o the fat man angreal

 

 

 

That's exactly what I said. Every male Forsaken was at least on par with the pre-maxed out Rand and pre-maxed out Rand was quite a few levels above even a maxed out Nynaeve.

Either way, the whole point was to show how Mesaana and Moggy are indeed the weakest of the 13 Forsaken.

[Suttree]

Either way, the whole point was to show how Mesaana and Moggy are indeed the weakest of the 13 Forsaken.

 

But that isn't what Mr Ares was disputing was it? As I read it he was pointing out that we don't know for certain Moghedien is the weakest as is often claimed.

 

Moghedien is the weakest female forsaken, possibly the weakest forsaken.

[Sloth]

Where are people getting the idea that Rand jumped like 10 levels ahead of himself from when he first started channeling to the current incarnation? Also, where does was it said that Rand is so much more powerful than Nynaeve's full potential?

 

In my opinion, his power level hasn't grown THAT much considering how much "forcing" he's been doing since he started channeling. There's the time that he drew from the Eye of the World well; the time he used the CK against Asmodean; and the time he used the CK to cleanse saidin to name a few.

[baalsmistress]

Is it really worthwhile talking about comparisons between the male and female channellers. There's no actual objective empirical scale of True Source Conduitness, so the only way to definitively tell who's stronger between a man and a woman (2 men or 2 women and they can sense it for themselves) would be a 'stress test' against each other (simultaneous or near simultaneous demonstration of power-based abilities).

 

This would likely be futile for resolving less than absolutely gross distinctions since they could not see each other's weaves, so an actual duel would be hard - not impossible of course. We've twice seen characters that could duel in the dark (Lanfear and Gawyn). Also, given that they most likely would have differing emphases in their power wrangling ability (which elements they are best with), even a test of 'Who can lift the heaviest rock', or 'who can cut a tunnel through that cliff fastest' would not provide direct comparisons of their strengths.

 

Just to put (arbitary) numbers on it, take this lineup

 

Element  Earth Air Fire Water Spirit
Man    	8    2   10    1      7    = 28
Woman  	2    13   3   11      6    = 35

 

There the man is clearly weaker overall, but any test focussing on Earth or Fire would show him stronger, whereas Air or Water would show her stronger. Spirit would give the result of the man being slightly ahead.

 

So yeah, rankings within each power type make sense. Rankings between them, less so as a combat between a male and female channeller using the OP, would be more a test of the channeller's ability to defend against unseen weapons as Lanfear did, and Gawyn did.

 

And this has, even so, touched only on peak flow rate. Sustained flow rate, or endurance are not considered.

[Mr Ares]

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's been implied that she is the weakest female forsaken if not the weakest forsaken. First there's her cautious nature, which, you can argue is overlooked by the fact that she refuses to take a chance with even those who are weaker than her in the OP, such as Egwene and Elayne. There's the fact that up until the time that she was mindtrapped, she was deathly afraid of the other forsaken, choosing to watch them from the shadows rather than meet face-to-face. There's the fact that the other female forsaken spoke lowly of her. And there's the fact that an Accepted Nynaeve was able to shield her in combat. The evidence is pretty compelling. Honestly, there's less evidence to suggest how Semirhage and Mesaana stand relative to Moghedien. Thus far, though, I can safely conclude that they are stronger than her in the OP.

I don't see any of that as an implication of Moghedien being weak in the Power. Her cautious nature says nothing about her strength in the OP, and nor does her fear of the others. They speak to her nature as a coward. I'm not aware of any correlation between bravery and OP strength. The others speaking lowly of her doesn't say anything about her strength in the Power, it says only that they hold her in contempt, something whcih could be true for many reasons. Nynaeve shielding her in combat only shows her strength in relation to Nynaeve, not to any of the other Chosen, male or female. Thus it is, as I stated, merely opinion and not fact. Could be she's the weakest. Could be there's two or three weaker. given the evidence you've presented, she could be just behind Lanfear in terms of strength.

 

 

I really wish people would stop stating this as a fact when it isn't. It is merely opinion.

 

It's between Mesaana and Moggy as to who is the weakest in the One Power, that is a fact.

Every single male Forsaken was close to Rand or pre-maxed out Rand and either level is quite a few levels up on Nynaeve.

Out of the female Forsaken is has been stated that Lanfear/Cyndane stands alone with Graendal and Semirhage just below her but still above or on par with Nynaeve.

Pre-maxed out potential Nynaeve was on par with Moggy, she has since passed her.

We were flat out told that Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana.

 

Therefore, it's between Mesaana and Moggy for the weakest.

End of story.

Do you have evidence to support any of that?

[Gabriel Kross]

I love how this is so far off topic that its not even worth continueing.

 

Could I request an Admin to lock this thread since it no longer has anything to do with the original subject of Moiraine?

[Sharaman]

Ah the good old strength of channelers argument :)

[Kahsm]

I love how this is so far off topic that its not even worth continueing.

 

Could I request an Admin to lock this thread since it no longer has anything to do with the original subject of Moiraine?

 

The original post was a clarification of Moir's OP strength. Something most if not all of us here already understood. So they it changed to... general OP strength. I really don't see how that's "so far off topic". Certainly have seen threads go way further afield than that.

[Sloth]

I don't see any of that as an implication of Moghedien being weak in the Power. Her cautious nature says nothing about her strength in the OP, and nor does her fear of the others. They speak to her nature as a coward. I'm not aware of any correlation between bravery and OP strength. The others speaking lowly of her doesn't say anything about her strength in the Power, it says only that they hold her in contempt, something whcih could be true for many reasons.

 

Moghedien is no more of a coward than Demandred, whom refuses to reveal where he is currently situated. The difference between the two and any other forsaken seen to be "cautious", for that matter (such as Graendal), is clearly power. It is lack of power that attributes to Moghedien's cautious nature.

 

Nynaeve shielding her in combat only shows her strength in relation to Nynaeve, not to any of the other Chosen, male or female. Thus it is, as I stated, merely opinion and not fact. Could be she's the weakest. Could be there's two or three weaker. given the evidence you've presented, she could be just behind Lanfear in terms of strength.]

 

Nynaeve is stated by either RJ or BS to be average forsaken level.. meaning Moghedien HAS to be at or near the bottom for this "power grid" to make sense.

 

*Sigh* You are being difficult. There is WAY more evidence to suggest that Moghedien is the weakest of the bunch than most of the other forsaken. By your logic, there is absolutely no concrete evidence that Lanfear is the strongest next to Ishy. There is also no evidence to show how any of the Forsaken stand relative to anyone. In fact, following this trend, it can't even be said that Rand is the most powerful channeler since he hasn't battled every channeler known in WoT to assert himself as the primera.

[Finnssss22]

Do you have evidence to support any of that?

 

 

Read the books, it's all there with the exception of Mesaana and Semirhage. BS told us he is pretty sure Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana and that Semirhage is stronger than Nynaeve.

 

Asmo was considered the weakest of the male Forsaken and he is even with a pre-maxed out Rand.

A maxed out Nynaeve is still a level of two below a pre-maxed out Rand.

Moggy was even with a pre-maxed out Nynaeve, she is below Nynaeve now that she has reached her full potential.

 

Tell ya what, YOU provide the evidence against anything I said.

[Eht Slat Meit]

On the upside, we now know that an angreal-enhanced Moiraine is the same power level as Cyndane. *nudges thread back on topic*

[Sloth]

Do you have evidence to support any of that?

 

 

Read the books, it's all there with the exception of Mesaana and Semirhage. BS told us he is pretty sure Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana and that Semirhage is stronger than Nynaeve.

 

Asmo was considered the weakest of the male Forsaken and he is even with a pre-maxed out Rand.

A maxed out Nynaeve is still a level of two below a pre-maxed out Rand.

Moggy was even with a pre-maxed out Nynaeve, she is below Nynaeve now that she has reached her full potential.

 

Tell ya what, YOU provide the evidence against anything I said.

 

Uh... I think I know what quote you are referring to in regards to Nynaeve and Semirhage, and I'm almost certain he was referring to the fact that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage.

 

And also, where are you getting the idea that Nynaeve has reached her full potential? Women are said to reach theirs smoothly whereas men skyrocket due to forcing and the nature of saidin, I suppose. Even in the current incarnation, whenever people refer to a channeler they see to be stronger than Nynaeve, they would say something along the lines of "her potential even surpasses that of Nynaeve's!" indicating that she has yet to reach hers.

 

On the upside, we now know that an angreal-enhanced Moiraine is the same power level as Cyndane. *nudges thread back on topic*

 

Uh... the only thing that would make sense regarding angreal/sa'angreal is that they act as a multiplier rather than a "well" with a fixed amount of saidar/in that it adds. Even though we know that Moiraine's angreal is almost strong enough to be considered a sa'angreal, her power is so diminished that even amplified, she wouldn't be incredibly strong.

 

One thing to consider is that Elayne with the "not so strong" angreal she found in Ebou Dar can handle twice as much of the OP as Nynaeve.

 

Also, quoted from 13th Depository: "It is a very strong angreal, almost a sa’angreal according to the Eelfinn (Towers of Midnight, The Light of the World). Using it, a woman too weak to be Accepted would be very strong, stronger than Romanda or Lelaine (Towers of Midnight, A Rabbit for Supper).".. so it looks like the angreal doesn't even make her as strong as Elayne, Egwene, or Aviendha. She'd be more powerful than her former-self unaided.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Uh... the only thing that would make sense regarding angreal/sa'angreal is that they act as a multiplier rather than a "well" with a fixed amount of saidar/in that it adds. Even though we know that Moiraine's angreal is almost strong enough to be considered a sa'angreal, her power is so diminished that even amplified, she wouldn't be incredibly strong.

 

I'm not familiar with Moiraine's stats other than what 13th is telling me, so I can't comment on whether she was a weak channeler beforehand, but in point of fact, she indicates that even with her diminished state, her angreal makes her very strong, even moreso than she was before she was diminished.

 

Also, quoted from 13th Depository: "It is a very strong angreal, almost a sa’angreal according to the Eelfinn (Towers of Midnight, The Light of the World). Using it, a woman too weak to be Accepted would be very strong, stronger than Romanda or Lelaine (Towers of Midnight, A Rabbit for Supper).".. so it looks like the angreal doesn't even make her as strong as Elayne, Egwene, or Aviendha. She'd be more powerful than her former-self unaided.

 

One thing before I go on - I was operating with what I thought was a 'Word of God' quote, with RJ confirming that Cyndane and Moiraine were of the same power-level in an interview. I misread it, and recalled what I did remember wrongly. There's a suggestion that the person asking might have been right, based on RJ's reaction and his RAFO response, but that's unconfirmed per the books. Maybe we're due for a rematch.

 

As far as that quote you've provided goes, I'm not sure how they determine she's "not even as strong as Elayne/Egwene/Avi" when they have all of two sentences to go on. She used to be "Level 12", but we're given no indication of just how much stronger than that she is now, just that she's "even stronger than she was before". There's only two power levels of difference between Old Moiraine and the three, by 13th's estimation.

[Sloth]

I'm not familiar with Moiraine's stats other than what 13th is telling me, so I can't comment on whether she was a weak channeler beforehand, but in point of fact, she indicates that even with her diminished state, her angreal makes her very strong, even moreso than she was before she was diminished.

 

She wasn't a weak channeler beforehand. She was considered to be one of the strongest Aes Sedai during the start of the series. She's about 3 levels below Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha in the OP.

 

As far as that quote you've provided goes, I'm not sure how they determine she's "not even as strong as Elayne/Egwene/Avi" when they have all of two sentences to go on. She used to be "Level 12", but we're given no indication of just how much stronger than that she is now, just that she's "even stronger than she was before". There's only two power levels of difference between Old Moiraine and the three, by 13th's estimation.

 

The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

[Eht Slat Meit]

The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

 

The quote you gave me says that, but the 13th Depository Power-Level Chart doesn't. In fact, it says that was -Old- Moiraine's power level before dropping to "Level 2". With the angreal, her Level should be somewhere above Level 12. We don't know how much.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

This is why I am stating that somewhere along the line, 13th Depository failed and I suppose it comes from trying to intuit too much from too little information. Or maybe it was two different writers? I'm not familiar with their site and don't know what the discrepancy results from.

[Sloth]

The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

 

The quote you gave me says that, but the 13th Depository Power-Level Chart doesn't. In fact, it says that was -Old- Moiraine's power level before dropping to "Level 2". With the angreal, her Level should be somewhere above Level 12. We don't know how much.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

This is why I am stating that somewhere along the line, 13th Depository failed and I suppose it comes from trying to intuit too much from too little information. Or maybe it was two different writers? I'm not familiar with their site and don't know what the discrepancy results from.

 

Wait a minute.. I'm almost certain that Romanda and Lelaine are both stronger than Elaida, former Siuan, and former Moiraine.. so why are they lumped together? Anyways, going by my original idea, that Romanda and Lelaine, I'm assuming Moiraine would be, while stronger than them, not exponentially stronger. Hmm.. then again, the only other people above she can compare herself to, who are above Romanda and Lelaine would be Lanfear, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha. Since it isn't said that she's at or above their strength, I'm assuming she's still below.

[Sharaman]

On the upside, we now know that an angreal-enhanced Moiraine is the same power level as Cyndane. *nudges thread back on topic*

 

No. all we know is that, post Finnland+angreal Moiraine's stronger than she was, unaided pre-finnland.

There's plenty of room for her to be weaker than Cyndane, who is, despite being weaker than Lanfear pre-finnland, stronger than any of the other female Forsaken.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Wait a minute.. I'm almost certain that Romanda and Lelaine are both stronger than Elaida, former Siuan, and former Moiraine.. so why are they lumped together? Anyways, going by my original idea, that Romanda and Lelaine, I'm assuming Moiraine would be, while stronger than them, not exponentially stronger. Hmm.. then again, the only other people above she can compare herself to, who are above Romanda and Lelaine would be Lanfear, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha. Since it isn't said that she's at or above their strength, I'm assuming she's still below.

 

There is extensive discussion of each power-level below, and why each character falls on that power-level, based on sourced material. I don't have time to nitpick the details, so no idea how accurate it is, but at least it's highly detailed in explanations, I guess.

[Gabriel Kross]

I'm not familiar with Moiraine's stats other than what 13th is telling me, so I can't comment on whether she was a weak channeler beforehand, but in point of fact, she indicates that even with her diminished state, her angreal makes her very strong, even moreso than she was before she was diminished.

 

She wasn't a weak channeler beforehand. She was considered to be one of the strongest Aes Sedai during the start of the series. She's about 3 levels below Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha in the OP.

 

As far as that quote you've provided goes, I'm not sure how they determine she's "not even as strong as Elayne/Egwene/Avi" when they have all of two sentences to go on. She used to be "Level 12", but we're given no indication of just how much stronger than that she is now, just that she's "even stronger than she was before". There's only two power levels of difference between Old Moiraine and the three, by 13th's estimation.

 

The quote I give you says that with the angreal, she would be as strong as Lelaine and Romanda, who are below Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, and even Cadsuane. Therefore, Moiraine would still be weaker than Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha with her angreal.

 

 

All of this is an approximation, none of this is written in stone there is no quote to show exactly how strong it makes her where as the quoute you offered approximates lelain and romanda but does not say this is how it is end of story, it all depends on A:) how strong she was compared to these others before, B:) how much stronger the angreal makes her compared to her old strength and C:) whether the others are maxed out, since there is no conclusive evidence on any of this it is all speculation that will turn into an argument if you keep restating your own sides.

[Mr Ares]

Ah the good old strength of channelers argument :)

Indeed. One can practically win this battle from memory, the number of times it's been fought.

 

 

I don't see any of that as an implication of Moghedien being weak in the Power. Her cautious nature says nothing about her strength in the OP, and nor does her fear of the others. They speak to her nature as a coward. I'm not aware of any correlation between bravery and OP strength. The others speaking lowly of her doesn't say anything about her strength in the Power, it says only that they hold her in contempt, something whcih could be true for many reasons.

 

Moghedien is no more of a coward than Demandred, whom refuses to reveal where he is currently situated. The difference between the two and any other forsaken seen to be "cautious", for that matter (such as Graendal), is clearly power. It is lack of power that attributes to Moghedien's cautious nature.

Moghedien is significantly more of a coward than Demandred. Demandred might be hidden, but that is not evidence of cowardice. Moggy avoids direct confrontation as far as possible. During the War of the power, Demandred resigned from positions as a Governor to take to the field again in his quest to kill LTT. Both are present at the Cleansing, and Moggy does as little as she can, in order to avoid getting shot at. Yes, some of the Chosen are cautious - those who aren't likely fell by the wayside - but Asmo and Moggy are both cowards.

 

Nynaeve shielding her in combat only shows her strength in relation to Nynaeve, not to any of the other Chosen, male or female. Thus it is, as I stated, merely opinion and not fact. Could be she's the weakest. Could be there's two or three weaker. given the evidence you've presented, she could be just behind Lanfear in terms of strength.

 

Nynaeve is stated by either RJ or BS to be average forsaken level.. meaning Moghedien HAS to be at or near the bottom for this "power grid" to make sense.

That still leaves quite a bit of room for manouevre. For example, if she is just compared to the women, Moggy could be in the middle (3rd of 5), a little weaker than Nynaeve, and that could hold true. Despite the complete lack of evidence, people always blithely state that she is weakest, Asmo is the weakest man, etc., as if this was a known fact but whenever challenged, the evidence is always found to be lacking. Always. And this has come up a lot.

 

*Sigh* You are being difficult. There is WAY more evidence to suggest that Moghedien is the weakest of the bunch than most of the other forsaken. By your logic, there is absolutely no concrete evidence that Lanfear is the strongest next to Ishy. There is also no evidence to show how any of the Forsaken stand relative to anyone. In fact, following this trend, it can't even be said that Rand is the most powerful channeler since he hasn't battled every channeler known in WoT to assert himself as the primera.

I may be being difficult, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. We have precious little evidence on this matter. We have direct quotes stating that Ishamael was as strong as LTT, that Aginor and Lanfear vied for the place of second strongest Chosen, but we have no such similar quote for most of the others. Who is the weakest? We don't know. There is not enough evidence to say with any degree of reliability. It certainly could be Moghedien, but there is nothing like the evidence we would need to state that it definitley is her, or even is most likely her. She is merely a possibility. By my logic, there is evidence to say Lanfear is next to Ishy in strength - there are quotes saying as much. There are no such quotes to say, or even imply, that Moggy is the weakest. None at all.

 

Do you have evidence to support any of that?

 

 

Read the books, it's all there with the exception of Mesaana and Semirhage. BS told us he is pretty sure Nynaeve is stronger than Mesaana and that Semirhage is stronger than Nynaeve.

See, when I request evidence, I do usually appreciate evidence. I know, I'm a bit odd like that, asking for things that I want. As it is, you have provided no evidence. Now, let us read a quote: "Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close." So Nynaeve is stronger than Semi, despite you claiming BS said the reverse. Doesn't help your case much, does it? Now, given that I have just proved that your grasp of the available evidence is not what it could be, I would appreciate you actually finding evidence to back up your claims. Because a "take my word for it" from someone who is demonstrably wrong is not worth as much as a "take my word for it" from Mr Ares, that bastion of infallibility and knowledge. And ego, of course, but that goes without saying. Find the quotes from the books or drop it. Your choice.

 

Asmo was considered the weakest of the male Forsaken and he is even with a pre-maxed out Rand.

This is another popular claim, but backed up by no evidence. There is nothing in the books. nothing in the BWB. No RJ or BS quote that I am aware of (and I would actually like to see one). Asmo is only considered the weakest male Chosen by fans, and they base it on the fact that Asmo is considered the weakest male Chosen by fans.

A maxed out Nynaeve is still a level of two below a pre-maxed out Rand.

Moggy was even with a pre-maxed out Nynaeve, she is below Nynaeve now that she has reached her full potential.

 

Tell ya what, YOU provide the evidence against anything I said.

That's not how debates work, generally. You make a claim, you provide evidence to back it up. Call me old fashioned, but I like things that way. Now, it's pretty difficult for me to provide evidence against, given my stance is there is insufficient evidence either way. How do you expect me to prove a negative? I guess you just think that I really am as divine as my username suggests. Now, I could quote the books, in their entirety, and use that as evidence that there is nothing in there to support your point. But that would be time consuming, annoying, and illegal. So i say, you say that evidence exists, I say it doesn't. As there is only one of us who could possibly find evidence to support their viewpoint, either you find evidence to back up your point, or you admit you have no evidence. My point cannot be proved, only disproved. Your point can be proved or disproved. As only you can prove your point, do so.