A common misconception about Moiraine

[Gabriel Kross]

I just wanted to point out a common misconception of Moiraine,

everyone assumes she is in the same boat as reincarnate Lanfear, however it is the exact oposite since she came out with the angreal jewelry item, she specifically mentions to thom that with that item she is several times more powerful than she was before entering that doorway, yes without it she is about the strength of siuan, however with it i believe she is on par with nynaeve and moghedien(last part is speculation since it doesn't state just how much stronger she actually is)

[he who comes with a bong]

I just wanted to point out a common misconception of Moiraine,

everyone assumes she is in the same boat as reincarnate Lanfear, however it is the exact oposite since she came out with the angreal jewelry item, she specifically mentions to thom that with that item she is several times more powerful than she was before entering that doorway, yes without it she is about the strength of siuan, however with it i believe she is on par with nynaeve and moghedien(last part is speculation since it doesn't state just how much stronger she actually is)

 

 

I do think that most of the ppl on here already know that. since it is pretty evident in the story when she tells them what happens. the angreal was one of her requests.

[jsbrads]

no, without it she is many times weaker than her old self, with it she is about the same strength as her old self

 

they sucked her soul, until her strength ability depleted.

 

Lanfear they sucked her soul so fast she just died, cyndane is almost as strong as Lanfear, the rapid process used on lanfear killed her before her strength ability could be significantly changed, but moraine was in there for more than a year...

 

How is this still a spoiler?

[Gabriel Kross]

no, without it she is many times weaker than her old self, with it she is about the same strength as her old self

 

they sucked her soul, until her strength ability depleted.

 

Lanfear they sucked her soul so fast she just died, cyndane is almost as strong as Lanfear, the rapid process used on lanfear killed her before her strength ability could be significantly changed, but moraine was in there for more than a year...

 

How is this still a spoiler?

 

re-read the last few chapters of ToM the conversation between her and Thom, and it was recommended that ToM stuff have spoiler warnings on it still

[Kahsm]

While it would suck for Moiraine, it brings up the question of whether or not her (sa')angreal would be better used with someone else. Nynaeve perhaps could make better use of it. Also, the Aes Sedai hierarchy likely won't care about what she can do with the thing, they'll measure her by her actual power now.

[Gabriel Kross]

that's assuming she actually tells them the way I read that last bit, the only person she was willing to give it up for was Thom

[David Selig]

Without the angreal Moiraine's much weaker than the current Siuan level. "Without this angreal, I wouldn’t be strong enough to be raised Accepted in the White Tower. " Siuan is currently among the weaker Aes Sedai, but clearly much above the minimum requirement for becoming Accepted.

[Ala Rubra]

While it would suck for Moiraine, it brings up the question of whether or not her (sa')angreal would be better used with someone else. Nynaeve perhaps could make better use of it.

 

Are you assuming that (sa')angreal multiply base power, not add some additional amount? Anyway, if Nynaeve needed an *angreal, she could probably just borrow one from the Tower's stores. I doubt that anyone would let present Moiraine do so, given the Tower's strength based prejudice.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai hierarchy likely won't care about what she can do with the thing, they'll measure her by her actual power now.

 

Which, hopefully, will lead to a change in the way Aes Sedai determine their pecking order.

[baalsmistress]

I've always thought (perhaps incorrectly), that a (sa')angreal acted as an additional conduit for power, increasing the channeler's capacty by a fixed margin, but the channeller had to have the inate strength to handle the flow of the increased power stream through them, or be destroyed by it.

 

From there we have 3 'numbers' for power flow rate

 

Inate ability to draw from the source - call it P_i

Sa'Angreal power flot - call it P_sa

Total power flow capacity of the chaneller - call it C_t

 

That gives us the power flowing through the channeller as P_i + P_sa

 

If that number is greater than C_t, then the channeller will be damaged - be that knocked out, stilled, destroyed, whatever - bad stuff anyhow.

 

I think with Moiraine, her P_i has been dramatically reduced, but her C_t has remained static. Making her a very good choice to wield a sa'angreal

[Gabriel Kross]

I've always thought (perhaps incorrectly), that a (sa')angreal acted as an additional conduit for power, increasing the channeler's capacty by a fixed margin, but the channeller had to have the inate strength to handle the flow of the increased power stream through them, or be destroyed by it.

 

From there we have 3 'numbers' for power flow rate

 

Inate ability to draw from the source - call it P_i

Sa'Angreal power flot - call it P_sa

Total power flow capacity of the chaneller - call it C_t

 

That gives us the power flowing through the channeller as P_i + P_sa

 

If that number is greater than C_t, then the channeller will be damaged - be that knocked out, stilled, destroyed, whatever - bad stuff anyhow.

 

I think with Moiraine, her P_i has been dramatically reduced, but her C_t has remained static. Making her a very good choice to wield a sa'angreal

 

 

Honestly, this sounds about right, and the way it sounds the item Moiraine has would currently be the most powerful female one since the chodan cal was destroyed in the cleansing.

[baalsmistress]

Oh, I don't think so, allow me to quote

 

'I don't have much of the Power now, dearest Thom. Without this angreal, I wouldn't be strong enough to be raised Accepted in the White Tower. I will throw it away, if you wish it of me.' She lifter out her other hand, barely staying modest. She pulled off the angreal.

'I don't think so, Moiraine,' Thom said, kneeling down, taking her hands. 'No, I won't rob you of anything.'

'But with it I'll be very strong, stronger in the Power than before I was taken.'

 

To me, that sounds like the angreal - (note, she specifically calls it an angreal, not a sa'angreal) is mostly compensating for her diminuition, and her power level with it, is increments above her former P_i

[Mandro]

She is MORE powerful, but not several times more powerful.

[capuga]

and it was recommended that ToM stuff have spoiler warnings on it still

Just FYI, you can go ahead and discuss anything up through ToM freely on this board. No need to worry about spoilers.

[Sid]

Yeah, the Eelfin describe it as a very powerful angreal, almost strong enough to be called a sa'angreal.

[Luckers]

Yup, TofM spoilers are fine on this board. It's the Structured Board that you have to keep spoilers limited to the book the thread is discussing.

[Gabriel Kross]

ok I reread that section myself I nisread it the first time thought it said several times more powerful but its just more powerful, however most people still say she basically can't channel and as of right now that is inaccurate because of the angreal that she wears it just bugs me that most people discredit her for the possibility that she will do anything amazing post rescue because "she can't channel hardly anything"

[baalsmistress]

Eternal Phoenix, I agree entirely. I read through quite a large thread on theoryland where almost the entire point was that she was rendered ineffective and fatally damaged as a character simply because she was naked and unconsious during her rescue. Had to hold myself back from replying in that thread because I can't see how those facts are at all relevent to her future contributions. Likewise her offer to give up her angreal and her reduced P_iwould only affect her ability to function as a high power channeller.

 

We know that Rand's success depends on Moiraine, but we have no clue as to how. It's entirely possible, even likely, given that he has access to far more powerful channellers than the pre-finn Moiraine, that her importance has nothing whatsoever to do with her personal power.

 

Personally, Moiraine is one of my favourite characters. I'm awaiting AMoL to see how her future plays out. I have no doubts that her fundimental drive to achieve her goals is undiminished, and while Thom has been added to those goals, assisting Rand to defeat the Dark One's escape plans will remain at the top.

[Gabriel Kross]

Don't forget Thom is now on that Lan status I'd honestly rank him in probably rank him in top 10 individual fighters on the side of the light now that he has the warder bond along with his previous skills. Granted he could never beat the big 3 (Rand Mat Perrin) or Galad, However I think he'd easily take Gawyn at a distance w/o ever being in danger from him. I'd say the Moiraine Thom duo is the best duo there is now, most the others are onesided s far as usefulness except the Nynaeve Lan duo

[Finnssss22]

Don't forget Thom is now on that Lan status I'd honestly rank him in probably rank him in top 10 individual fighters on the side of the light now that he has the warder bond along with his previous skills. Granted he could never beat the big 3 (Rand Mat Perrin) or Galad, However I think he'd easily take Gawyn at a distance w/o ever being in danger from him. I'd say the Moiraine Thom duo is the best duo there is now, most the others are onesided s far as usefulness except the Nynaeve Lan duo

 

 

*Cough* Tuon and Mat *Cough*

 

Would it honestly surprise anyone at this point to find out that Tuon is the missing woman that both RJ and BS slotted in "there are 6 women stronger than Nynaeve" response.

 

Just because someone is not a sparker and has to be taught to channel doesn't mean they are weaker. Evidenced quite soundly with Sharina and confirmed by RJ a long time ago.

[Gabriel Kross]

The problem is there is no evidence as of yet to show her strength, yes Tuon has political power, but what good is political power in a all out fight? If she turns out to be the 6th than yes Mat Tuon combo would be up there with Moiraine/Thom and Nynaeve/Lan

[W_A]

Even if she couldn't channel, she's among the best, if not the best physical fighter of the women in the series.

[baalsmistress]

The problem is there is no evidence as of yet to show her strength, yes Tuon has political power, but what good is political power in a all out fight? If she turns out to be the 6th than yes Mat Tuon combo would be up there with Moiraine/Thom and Nynaeve/Lan

 

The use of political power in a fight - having an army of 300,000 troops, instead of 50,000 because of the other noble's you've gotten to pledge their support to you and deliver on the pledge.

[baalsmistress]

Even if she couldn't channel, she's among the best, if not the best physical fighter of the women in the series.

 

Please, please, explain to me where there is the slightest indication that Moiraine is a good physical fighter - I don't know of anything to put her on a par with Faiele, let alone the Maidens of the Spear

[Gabriel Kross]

I agree with you completely, the thing is the Deathwatch Guard would never let her be on the front lines imo. They would spend all their resources on guarding her instead of fighting the enemy, which will lesson the overall offensive of the Seanchan so because she is the Empress she will be more of a hinderence in the fight than help. The only thing I see happening is her using several Damane all chained to her and jst wiping the field with the damane but for her actually seeing action personally I highly doubt it

[Gabriel Kross]

Even if she couldn't channel, she's among the best, if not the best physical fighter of the women in the series.

 

Please, please, explain to me where there is the slightest indication that Moiraine is a good physical fighter - I don't know of anything to put her on a par with Faiele, let alone the Maidens of the Spear

 

It was a slight divert of topic it's about Tuon not Moiraine

 

 

also

The problem is there is no evidence as of yet to show her strength, yes Tuon has political power, but what good is political power in a all out fight? If she turns out to be the 6th than yes Mat Tuon combo would be up there with Moiraine/Thom and Nynaeve/Lan

 

The use of political power in a fight - having an army of 300,000 troops, instead of 50,000 because of the other noble's you've gotten to pledge their support to you and deliver on the pledge.

 

we were more talking about just the duos not the people they have following them, if you went that route yes Tuon and Mat would be number 1 for the 2 armies they control but that's not what I was referring to, I was referring to the fact that by themselves Thom and Moiraine could do massive amounts of damage to the enemy, more so than Nynaeve and Lan, because Moiraine's experience compared to Nynaeve's (Nynaeve is the reason for Lan/Nynaeve not being number 1 but only due to lack of experience)