A question of Shielding.

[Andhaira]

Channelers of opposite genders cannot see each others weaves. So how do they cut them in order to be able to place a shield around the other?

 

Has there been any male channeler vs female channeler battles in the series? The only times I can recall off the top of my head is Rand & co. vs Lanfear in book 5. I don't recall anything of the battle itself.

 

Another was Rand getting shielded by the 13 Aes Sedai in book 6. However, in that scene there was no cutting of weaves involved, as Rand was not even holding the one power when he got shielded. (not that it would have helped, as he was facing 13 women who were linked).

[water_seeker]

There was more Rand/Lanfear stuff in tSR. I'm pretty sure Lanfear cut his weaves...I think he also cut her weaves before pinning her to a wall and shielding her. On a related note, after he left she unknotted his shield without being able to see it.

 

All you need to know to cut someones weave without seeing it is how to do it and that someone is probably weaving something your direction.

[Sharaman]

Lanfear actually explains exactly this to Rand in TSR. Also not a fight but definitely a quesiton of shielding - LoC - Rand-LTT thoughts as he breaks free gives some insight into how it can happen.

[MasterAblar]

You don't have to see the other's weaves. As long as you know they're there you can cut them.

[LazyMonk]

There's an explanation somewhere. If you know what and where a weave is -- see it in your mind's eye as it were -- then you can cut it.

 

Regardless, you don't need to cut a channeler's weaves in order to shield him (except to prevent him from attacking you). Shielding is a matter of either strength or distraction. If you're strong enough, you can simply overwhelm another. If not, you can draw his attention elsewhere and catch him off guard.

[Kahsm]

In Rand's PoV at the wagons at the Cairhien docks he specifically states he lashed out wildly trying to slice her weaves. So he was doing it, but not exactly cleanly.

 

That said, you just need to be stronger to shield, but if you're only slightly stronger then you'd have to put a lot of effort into the shield, which leaves you open.

 

When Nyn fights Mohg, they are both trying to shield/sever eachother at the same time. I wonder, if Nyn had just started weaving something else entirely would she'd have been fine as long as she always drew her full potential. Because her draw would be just as difficult to cut, but she'd be doing something that might land. But then Mogh would have to defend herself and losen off her shielding attempt to slice or deflect.

 

I think the answer was that had she started something else her draw would have dipped a bit for a fration of a moment and that would be enough to cause Mohg's shield to slide in place (or the severing)

 

Here are some RJ shielding comments

 

I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.  The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim.  Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand.  As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

 

Q:  How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

RJ:  He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

[Andhaira]

Ok, so you just have to know the person of the opposite gender is channeling to be able to cut their weaves.

 

Another question: How strong was Lanfear exactly? From what I recall, she was second among forsaken, making her stronger than ALL the forsaken except for Ishamel. Is this true? Was she truly more powerful than Rahvin and even Demandred?

[MasterAblar]

Ok, so you just have to know the person of the opposite gender is channeling to be able to cut their weaves.

 

Another question: How strong was Lanfear exactly? From what I recall, she was second among forsaken, making her stronger than ALL the forsaken except for Ishamel. Is this true? Was she truly more powerful than Rahvin and even Demandred?

 

It's hard to say, particularly since it's not clear what the order of strength is amongst the male Forsaken, however she is definitely the strongest of the female Forsaken and as strong as a woman can be. The myth that she was second strongest of the Forsaken is wrong. The Aes Sedai were not aware that men have greater strength, which is balanced by the women's greater dexterity. However it's unlikely that she is equal to Aginor, Demandred, Sammael, or Rahvin. When she meets with Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael, Rahvin thinks she will link with Graendal if he or Sammael try anything. And Lanfear and Graendal don't exactly like each other. It's hard to say how strong Bel'al and Balthamel are, but Asmodean is weakest of the male Forsaken. Personally in terms of brute strength I place her equal to Asmodean, possibly a little higher. But that's just brute strength.

[Mandro]

My big question on shielding? How did the kinswoman manipulate her flows in such a way a to hold Nynaeve? Why isn't that being studied?

[Lisa Campbell]

My big question on shielding? How did the kinswoman manipulate her flows in such a way a to hold Nynaeve? Why isn't that being studied?

 

It is a Talent of hers. I think it was explained that she didn't really fight Nynaeve's attempts to break the shield (as in trying to keep the shield hard and fast like a wall of glass, she can just make her shield flexible to contain any attempt to break out. I picture it like an un-poppable balloon, no matter how hard Nynaeve tried to blow, the balloon just kept on expanding to contain the force.

[Mr Ares]

Ok, so you just have to know the person of the opposite gender is channeling to be able to cut their weaves.

 

Another question: How strong was Lanfear exactly? From what I recall, she was second among forsaken, making her stronger than ALL the forsaken except for Ishamel. Is this true? Was she truly more powerful than Rahvin and even Demandred?

As far as we can tell, yes, she was stronger than any of the Chosen save Ishamael and possibly Aginor (her rival for the crown of second strongest). We don't really know anything of the male strength rankings behind Ishamael and Aginor. Despite what people will tell you, there is nothing to support Asmodean being the weakest. Bear in mind the Chosen can lie to themselves about their strength (and this would be easiest across the gender divide where strength couldn't be directly sensed), so you might have to take some of the quotes from the books with a pinch of salt.

[MasterAblar]

Ok, so you just have to know the person of the opposite gender is channeling to be able to cut their weaves.

 

Another question: How strong was Lanfear exactly? From what I recall, she was second among forsaken, making her stronger than ALL the forsaken except for Ishamel. Is this true? Was she truly more powerful than Rahvin and even Demandred?

As far as we can tell, yes, she was stronger than any of the Chosen save Ishamael and possibly Aginor (her rival for the crown of second strongest). We don't really know anything of the male strength rankings behind Ishamael and Aginor. Despite what people will tell you, there is nothing to support Asmodean being the weakest. Bear in mind the Chosen can lie to themselves about their strength (and this would be easiest across the gender divide where strength couldn't be directly sensed), so you might have to take some of the quotes from the books with a pinch of salt.

 

In regards to Mr Ares post, I want to clarify that my above post is of course my personal opinion, and therefore should not be taken as fact, even if I obviously feel there is justification for it. Also he's correct about Asmodean who is never actually said to be weakest of the male Forsaken. It's just commonly held to be true.

 

That said I would like to add that RJ apparently had two different ranking systems for the men and women and therefore did not compare the two. Furthermore he said that he had the women on a power scale of 21, and that as "men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel", "there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels". It's probably reasonable to expect the Forsaken to be some of the strongest channellers possible, so the men are likely to be towards the higher levels.

[XXX]

Isn't the ranking system just one...a scale of 24 where Rand and Ishy are at 24(the highest for men) while Lanfear is at 21(the highest for females)

[MasterAblar]

Isn't the ranking system just one...a scale of 24 where Rand and Ishy are at 24(the highest for men) while Lanfear is at 21(the highest for females)

 

RJ had two seperate scales, one for men, one for women. The one for women was mostly used to keep track of who has to defer to who among Aes Sedai. The scale for women went up to 21, and, if one were to add in the men, there would be several levels beyond that for them.

 

I've been looking around and found this if it interests you:

 

 

We also discussed a bit the 21 levels list, which Brandon used a lot. Jordan did start it just the way he described it long ago, that is as a way to keep track of who defers to whom among minor players etc. However, as of now, this document's scope goes beyond this (and it's quite big). The document assigns a rank number to each Aes Sedai referring to the twenty-one levels system, and it lists their personal weaves if they have any, and who knows and have the skills to use which weave and to what extent, their strength in flows if details in the series have blocked this up etc. Brandon confirmed Jordan developed a similar ranking system for the Asha'man as well, but couldn't recall out of hand how many levels there were for them.

[Mandro]

Isn't the ranking system just one...a scale of 24 where Rand and Ishy are at 24(the highest for men) while Lanfear is at 21(the highest for females)

 

Well I think it's all very subjective. However, the new girls seem to be rather well rounded as do the men.

 

TALENTS might amplify, but they do not define, as has been expressed. People seem to concentrate on the things they know without the power, which doesn't not limit their ability to manipulate the power.

 

I can solder or weld a copper wire into place for electrical connection, but what I LIKE is putting the RIGHT chip in the RIGHT place (I was trained as an electronics tech, also a killer, but that's besides the point)