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why doesn't fain kill mat at Fal Dara


damandred
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When Fain breaks out of Fal Dara keep, Mat and Ewgene are found knocked out on the floor.

Its my understanding that he hates all the TR boys, after all his rage was so great he killed all of Perrins family.

He had Mat at his mercey. He was helpless but fain still had time to write a message to Rand, but never finished Mat of. Why?

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I had a theory that he tried, but Mat, being a dagger-carrier, was immune to the effects of the dagger (like Fain is - we've seen him nick himself). And he was in a hurry, so he didn't bother with trying harder.

 

 

Its possable I guess but Fain still had time to taunt Rand. And no ones immune to a knife in the heart. Quick and easy.

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I had a theory that he tried, but Mat, being a dagger-carrier, was immune to the effects of the dagger (like Fain is - we've seen him nick himself). And he was in a hurry, so he didn't bother with trying harder.

 

 

Its possable I guess but Fain still had time to taunt Rand.

That was important, not just taunting.

 

And no ones immune to a knife in the heart. Quick and easy.

No, it's much easier to get your goons to knock them out, and much less risk to your person. Fain is not a fighter; he's much more likely to use his tricks to render his victims unable to fight back than to risk himself.

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And no ones immune to a knife in the heart. Quick and easy.

No, it's much easier to get your goons to knock them out, and much less risk to your person. Fain is not a fighter; he's much more likely to use his tricks to render his victims unable to fight back than to risk himself.

And Fain wants their death to be anything but quick and easy.

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I can't see any risk to Fain stabbing Mat why he's knocked out. The only reason I can think of why he's still alive is that Fain took the cursed knife and figured without it Mat would die anyway.

 

 

 

Precisely. I can imagine Fain delighting in the thought that Mat would a slow and agonizing death without the dagger. Fain is too over-confident consider Mat had a snowball's chance in Hell of getting the dagger back.

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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning, and they struggled over authority until Fain pinned it to a wall (its why their direction zigs and zags).

 

So the question probably isn't 'why didn't Fain kill Mat?' but 'why didn't the Fade kill Mat?'. The answer being--its mission was to free Fain. The extras were meaningless--including Mat, Egwene and the other prisoners. Possibly even this was a backlash of the Chosen compelled command issue-Ishamael orders the Fade to free Fain, so that is what it does, and all it does.

 

Fain, in this scenario, just took back his dagger--and it should be remembered that Fain evolved... at this point he was still subject to the Shadow.

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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning, and they struggled over authority until Fain pinned it to a wall (its why their direction zigs and zags).

 

So the question probably isn't 'why didn't Fain kill Mat?' but 'why didn't the Fade kill Mat?'. The answer being--its mission was to free Fain. The extras were meaningless--including Mat, Egwene and the other prisoners. Possibly even this was a backlash of the Chosen compelled command issue-Ishamael orders the Fade to free Fain, so that is what it does, and all it does.

 

Fain, in this scenario, just took back his dagger--and it should be remembered that Fain evolved... at this point he was still subject to the Shadow.

 

I thought Ingtar freed Fain?

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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning, and they struggled over authority until Fain pinned it to a wall (its why their direction zigs and zags).

 

So the question probably isn't 'why didn't Fain kill Mat?' but 'why didn't the Fade kill Mat?'. The answer being--its mission was to free Fain. The extras were meaningless--including Mat, Egwene and the other prisoners. Possibly even this was a backlash of the Chosen compelled command issue-Ishamael orders the Fade to free Fain, so that is what it does, and all it does.

 

Fain, in this scenario, just took back his dagger--and it should be remembered that Fain evolved... at this point he was still subject to the Shadow.

 

I thought Ingtar freed Fain?

 

 

 

He did, but there was definitely a Myrdraal present as well because it was a Myrdraal who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the wall. My best guess is that the Myrdraal was in charge and dragged Ingtar along with him, and then told Ingtar to free Fain while the fade was busy playing fingerpaints on the dungeon wall. That gives Fain enough time to grab the dagger before the Myrdraal says it's time GTFO, and meanwhile Ingtar rushes off to pretend he's all not a darkfriend and stuff.

 

Also, I think the fact that Ingtar had absolutely no idea about a connection to Falme is indicative that he ABSOLUTELY spent as little time in the cells as possible. He wanted the HoV badly enough that if he thought for a second Fain would have it there, he would have agreed to follow Rand there sooner. So after he freed Fain, Ingtar was out of the cells before anybody had time to reference Falme in the writing on the walls.

 

So regardless of whether or not Ingtar freed Fain, it's safe to say that Fain went into the Fade's custody pretty much immediately.

 

IMHO

Edited by Chel
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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning

Eh, not precisely. Yes, it's obvious they battled over control, but RJ gave indication that Fain was not entirely powerless in the beginning:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 10 Question: In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

 

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.

Fain just had more important things to worry about than killing Mat. Such as getting information out of this Fade.

Edited by Terez
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My opinion is that no matter how much Fain hates Mat and Perrin, this hatred is nothing compared to his feelings to Rand. So, he intentionally missed the opportunity to stab Mat in the heart. In case Mat was killed, it was not sure, whether Rand will be included in Ingtar's troop of horn-hunters.

Despite the orders for quick rescue the myrddraal had, he wouldn't object a quick stab in MAt's heart by Fain, I assume.

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I had a theory that he tried, but Mat, being a dagger-carrier, was immune to the effects of the dagger (like Fain is - we've seen him nick himself). And he was in a hurry, so he didn't bother with trying harder.

 

Thing that bothers me about this is, if Fain had tried, Mat would still have been cut, would he not? I get the immunity thing, but the knife is still a knife. Did Mat have any wounds? I cant remember

Edited by Drekka Mort
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I had a theory that he tried, but Mat, being a dagger-carrier, was immune to the effects of the dagger (like Fain is - we've seen him nick himself). And he was in a hurry, so he didn't bother with trying harder.

 

Thing that bothers me about this is, if Fain had tried, Mat would still have been cut, would he not? I get the immunity thing, but the knife is still a knife. Did Mat have any wounds? I cant remember

Yes, but all it takes is a nick, and Fain is a pussy.

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In later books Fain-As-Mordeth makes a fair bit of effort to corrupt people with Shadar Logoth Ick--Elaida, Pedron Niall, etc. He might have seen a corrupted Mat as better than a dead Mat, especially since it would negatively impact Rand as well.

 

-- dwn

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No one is taking into account Fain's level of sheer obsession which I equate to a junkie's need for a hit after he has been cold turkey for a while. Even a withered, broken, emaciated junkie can be hard to handle for people trained specificaly to do so, so when a suddenly freed Fain jumps just-off-the-farm-Mat, Mat is unprepared for the assault and loses the dagger. But when Fain gets the dagger in hand (his fix) he loses intrest in anything else and is able to be led by the fade from the cells without finishing the job on Mat and Ewgene.

 

All things being equal, I kind of enjoy the thought of the SL dagger turning Fain into the Shadow on PCP.

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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning

Eh, not precisely. Yes, it's obvious they battled over control, but RJ gave indication that Fain was not entirely powerless in the beginning:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 10 Question: In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

 

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.

Fain just had more important things to worry about than killing Mat. Such as getting information out of this Fade.

 

 

 

Doesn't RJ just say above that Fain wanted enough power to kill, Rand, Mat and Perrin. But he has Mat in his power at Fal Dara. It says from the horses mouth above that killing the TR boys was his main goal. Again why leave mat alive, the dagger/junkie theory only stretches so far as he still wrote his message to Rand. I'm sure the fade would of had no problems with doing Mat in aswell.

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I like Luckers- Fade spites the forsaken-

Alternately this early in the story it may have had a standing order of capture if possible, but never kill.

Moridin, clearly issues new orders later when he makes killing Perrin and Mat a priority, before...

 

some great reasons from above, Fain, may have left him to spread Shadar Logoth evil, or could think of no better way to hurt Mat than to leave him alive. Tho I like the PCP approach too.

 

Plenty of reasons for this not to be a story hole.

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Here's the thing... it's clearly shown that the Fade who freed Fain was in charge at the beginning, and they struggled over authority until Fain pinned it to a wall (its why their direction zigs and zags).

 

So the question probably isn't 'why didn't Fain kill Mat?' but 'why didn't the Fade kill Mat?'. The answer being--its mission was to free Fain. The extras were meaningless--including Mat, Egwene and the other prisoners. Possibly even this was a backlash of the Chosen compelled command issue-Ishamael orders the Fade to free Fain, so that is what it does, and all it does.

 

Fain, in this scenario, just took back his dagger--and it should be remembered that Fain evolved... at this point he was still subject to the Shadow.

 

This ^^

 

Add that to character development of both Fain and Matt and you have your answer. RJ could've killed off Matt but decided he had more use in the story yet. He was developing the character of Fain here and the battle Fain had with leading the Faid rather then being led.

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