Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile?

[FarShainMael]

Is there a portal stone nearby?

[MarkDiLillo]

Eh....I still think it is implied that Rand accidentally transported them in his sleep. Or else the line about the void surrounding him, unsummoned while he dozed off wouldn't have been in the chapter. As for the question about how she found him...we don't know that much about portal stones. It is hinted that she wrote a book on them and it was a primary area of her study.

[Suttree]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

 

Where does it say this? I am pretty sure that it makes it clear in the book that Rand did it on his own accidentally by falling asleep and channeling spirit.

 

Largely this is based on a combination of egwenes dream and the sheer coincidental circumstances.

 

Yeah that is how I always read it, we know Lanfear was actively plotting at this point. It makes way more sense that it just happening while he was asleep.

[Finnssss22]

Eh....I still think it is implied that Rand accidentally transported them in his sleep. Or else the line about the void surrounding him, unsummoned while he dozed off wouldn't have been in the chapter. As for the question about how she found him...we don't know that much about portal stones. It is hinted that she wrote a book on them and it was a primary area of her study.

 

 

What we do know though is that Graendal, who also has considerable knowledge of the Stones, was planning on fleeing through one and thinking that it would not only be hard to find her but even hard for the DO himself to find her.

The definitely implies that it's not easy to do.

This along with Egwene's dream makes Lanfear the culprit a very strong conclusion imo.

[Isgrimner]

The saying is "No one can walk in the shadow so long they cannot come back to the light." So, I would guess that even with all the evil done by any of the characters, Ishameal, Lanfear, Fain, etc. that small chance does exist for any of them to be redeamed. I don't think it implies there is a cut off where a point of no-return is reached and one can't come back to the Light. I also suspect if one of the big bads are redeamed, they won't live long afterward. Though if they did, it would be a fresh take. As a general rule most major redemptions in literature or film usually involve the redeamed character dying in the act or immediately following their redemption. In this series we can already look to Ingtar and Verin who came back to the Light so to speak but didn't live long past the point of the audience learning of their past and susequent redemption.

 

My guess would be on Ishameal as it would be a little balance to the fact that the Shadow has aparently always tried to turn the Light's champion. I think there would be some symentry there.

 

I would be most surprised if it was Fain who gets redeamed. I think we have seen him do more vindictively cruel and evil things "on screen" than some of the others. He is also under the influence of multiple multiple evils. Unfortunately for him I think his insanity is the biggest obsticle to him from being redeamed unless Nynaeve or someone else is some how able to give him a moment of clarity, kind of in the same way Ishameal healed Lews Therin's madness on Dragonmount way back in the first prologue.

 

I've always kind of had a soft spot for Lanfear and hopes that she could turn it around. Perhaps it was due to when I first started reading these books back in '91 or so, I was about 14 and she was always being described as the most beautiful person in the series. Also after finding out Rand and Egwene probably weren't going to happen and not warming up to Elayne or Min early on, I thought of Selene/Lanfear as a good romantic replacement for a bit, up till maybe TSR.

[Jon Paul]

Third, her circumstances are more tragic, and in the context of those circumstances her subsequent actions are more understandable. Lews Therin's rejection of her, and the drilling of the Bore, ruined her life. Ishamael's life, other than his nihilistic worldview, was in great shape until the moment of the Bore's creation, very soon after which he went over to the Shadow.

 

How is she tragic? Lews Therin rejected her because she was a power-hungry and greedy little woman. If anything, Lews Therin is the tragic figure in their relationship. This is a woman he grew up with and loved, who he shared his life with.. and slowly and slowly it became clearer than she never loved the man, only the position he held. She loved his offices and titles, his strength in the Power, never him as a man. Tragic? She got exactly what she deserved. The drilling of the Bore wasn't tragic for her either. It happened because of her sheer reckless ambition.

 

Her life was ruined by her self because of the person she chose to be.

 

But yea Elan isn't tragic. We're never really given any notion of his once being a bright-eyed, hope-filled philosopher who had his ideals dashed to pieces by so and so an event. The titles he wrote that we know of clearly show he was pretty much always like this.. the only thing that the discovery of the Dark One accomplished with Elan was that it gave him an option to destroy the existence which he had already concluded was simply meaningless.

 

Maybe he was bullied when he was a kid? Maybe he was the kid in school who dressed in black, couldn't play sports and didn't have any friends? Maybe he always had a secret flame for Mierin, who was of course his best friend, until she was stolen away by that bastard jock Lews Therin? Yes that's it!

 

Honestly in my mind Elan was probably a well to do middle-class kid who grew up surrounded by "friends" (though I don't think he would have looked on them so), who was likely good at sports (the man can use a weapon) and got top grades in school. His opinions were completely opposite to that of Lews Therin but I imagine it was like George Bernard Shaw vs G. K. Chesterton.

 

The guy just doesn't give a fuck.

 

That's why everyone likes him.

[supernoddypo]

His opinions were completely opposite to that of Lews Therin but I imagine it was like George Bernard Shaw vs G. K. Chesterton.

 

The guy just doesn't give a fuck.

 

That's why everyone likes him.

 

Which one is LTT and which one is EMT?

[Tyzack]

I can make arguements for both:

 

Mierin: Imprissioned/tortured by DO/SH every day (epiloge of Tom), has a change of heart and helps Lews re-seal the Bore...a bit predictable, actually.

 

Elan Morin Tedronia - The character refered to one these boards as "Dark/Darth Rand" was very close to an EMT conclusion as to the pointlessness of the continued struggle against the DO. EMT reached that question, and answered that no, in the end it wasn't worth it, and joined/start the DO's forces. In this current plot-line one could theorize that since he felt the utter-helplessness of the Rand in book 6-12, he now feels the return of LTT/Rand Sedai, perhaps this will pull him back from the edge.

 

Personally, I highly doubt it as all of his current actions, specifically the constant used of the TP, seems to indicate the he is anticipating the End of the Wheel of Time, and therefore no longer cares at all.

 

So while Mierin would be predicatable, and, unfortunately, would probably turn semi-sappy, I think that's the way it goes, as I can't see EMT having a VoG revelation this late in the game.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mieren searched for and got passionate about the alternative source of Power that turned out to be the Dark One simply because it had a single - polarity- if you will. It could be used equally by males and females alike.

 

During the Age of Legends, when 'The One Power' was all there was with its Yin/Yang, male/female, Saidin/Saidar polarity, most of the important work involved working in cooperative Circles. The problem was that very few problems involved Circles that were large enough that they required a woman to lead. Most were 2 person Circles, or 4 person Circles where a male was required to lead.

 

Mieren's major problem was her ego, and justifiably so. She was both as Powerful as it was possible for a woman to be but she was also as adept with the One Power as it was possible for anyone to be, male or female. Yet, for almost everything that her power made possible she was required to surrender control to males less powerful and less skillful than she.

 

True Power offered equality. One Power kept her a second class citizen.

 

From her viewpoint there was only one choice, and she was willing to pay whatever it cost to finally be fully equal with any male.

 

Maybe now that she's had decades and centuries to experience the paying of that cost she's having second thoughts, and maybe it's all just another ploy.

 

Let's hope that finding out what's really going on with her is a fun read.

[Suttree]

Mieren's major problem was her ego, and justifiably so. She was both as Powerful as it was possible for a woman to be but she was also as adept with the One Power as it was possible for anyone to be, male or female. Yet, for almost everything that her power made possible she was required to surrender control to males less powerful and less skillful than she.

 

This is all true but I would also like to point out that she was not world renowned and never earned a third name. For someone with her ego and love of prestige this must have driven her crazy. Also keep in mind RJ's assistant Maria said Lanfear's actions drilling the bore were not pure.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Which one is LTT and which one is EMT?

 

The quote formatting in your post is bad. I didn't write what you quoted me as writing.

 

Let's hope that finding out what's really going on with her is a fun read.

 

Definitely.

 

Also keep in mind RJ's assistant Maria said Lanfear's actions drilling the bore were not pure.

 

You're misconstruing that. It wasn't a clue by Maria that Mierin was acting evilly at the time. Indeed, that was explicitly disavowed. It was a face-value statement that Mierin was not, by RJ's standards, a pure, goodhearted person.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Mieren's major problem was her ego, and justifiably so. She was both as Powerful as it was possible for a woman to be but she was also as adept with the One Power as it was possible for anyone to be, male or female. Yet, for almost everything that her power made possible she was required to surrender control to males less powerful and less skillful than she.

 

This is all true but I would also like to point out that she was not world renowned and never earned a third name. For someone with her ego and love of prestige this must have driven her crazy. Also keep in mind RJ's assistant Maria said Lanfear's actions drilling the bore were not pure.

 

Obviously not. Even if she hadn't figured out the presence of the DO, she didn't drill for that power for the good of mankind, but for her own purposes. She wanted power and glory.

But it's not as if a dramatic change of Lanfear's heart would be necessary for her to switch sides. The instinct of plain self-preservation is enough. Lanfear is getting tortured every day and with the DO the chances of her ever getting out of the punishment are rather slim. So all she can look forward to under the rule of the DO is slavery and torture until death. If she switches back to the light it'll either mean death, which will atleast be a release from constant pain or she has very good chances of building a new life. Afterall with her proficiency with the OP she should have no trouble living undetected unless she plays with politics and falls under the scrutiny of very capable Aes Sedai.

 

 

Still, if there's any of the Forsaken who'll turn on the DO it's got to be her. Not only is she the only one who has gotten a motive and an opportunity prepared for, but she's the only one whose conversion would actually help the forces of the light as she has in-depth knowledge of the Bore.

[Gabriel Kross]

Eh....I still think it is implied that Rand accidentally transported them in his sleep. Or else the line about the void surrounding him, unsummoned while he dozed off wouldn't have been in the chapter. As for the question about how she found him...we don't know that much about portal stones. It is hinted that she wrote a book on them and it was a primary area of her study.

 

That is probablly a red herring put in by Jordan, Rand assumed it was him, as no other channelers were in the group that woke up in the mirror world, which gives him the courage to try again to get them out once "Selene" gives him some information. Honestly I believe this instance was Lanfear manipulating Rand however trying to get him to understand portal stones a bit so yes it does help him, but not in the way you spoke of

 

Also you all forget Asmodean was on the path of redemption long before any of the other forsaken, if by some happenstance he were to pop back in say on accident he would be the redeemed Forsaken, I see the DO getting desperate and bringing all his forsaken back (that weren't balefired out) and I see Asmo just turning on him instantly, I don't recall Asmo being balefired but I could be wrong Asmo's only lustful/evil intent on joining the shadow was to live forever, and he did that for the music you never saw any evil deeds done by Asmo on the contrary he has helped in several instances that would have benefitted him had he not

[Suttree]

Also keep in mind RJ's assistant Maria said Lanfear's actions drilling the bore were not pure.

 

You're misconstruing that. It wasn't a clue by Maria that Mierin was acting evilly at the time. Indeed, that was explicitly disavowed. It was a face-value statement that Mierin was not, by RJ's standards, a pure, goodhearted person.

 

Wasn't trying to imply she was evil at the time, thought my statement was clear, but let me elaborate a bit, her intentions were not some pure attempt to help mankind find a common power source. What Maria's statement does do is highlight the one personality trait that has driven her actions. Greed.

 

JordanCon 25 April 2010 - Terez reporting

Ishara: Did Mierin drill the Bore out of curiosity, or out of some malevolent desire?

Maria: Mierin was kind of greedy. I don’t think it was a malevolent intent, but it wasn’t all pure and nice.

[mauifranko78]

I've always looked at Mierin in a similar way. If we look at her confirmed actions in the story and how they helped/hurt the Light/Shadow this is what we come up with...

 

What else has she done?

 

- Went crazy at the docks and killed people while trying to kill Rand. Clearly some bad guy actions here finally.

 

- Tried to kill Rand and allies at the cleansing.

 

 

Here is where your logic fails. Your "short" list of evil deeds actually reveals crucial pieces of evidence as to why Lanfear will not be redeemed. For the whole of her existence, she has done nothing but serve her own interests. She actually is the poster child for what brought about the fall of the Age of Legends and the actual reason for the breaking. Aes Sedai were supposed to be servants of all. But as with all humans over extended periods of success, that success breeds arrogance, a sense of righteouness, a feeling of entitlement to more, and eventually those traits dominate a person's behavior.

 

All the forsaken were humans with incredible talents, but simply not satisfied with "helping others". Aka Asmodean's story about a man hanging on to a branch, about to fall off a cliff... Rand's simple question to him, ~ "Did you help him?", actually shocks Asmodean. The closest thing we had to a Forsaken returning. And this is how out of touch Aes Sedai at the end of the AOL were becoming. They didn't need the DO's influence to be bad people. They were developing destructive personalities all on their own.

 

Your "good" deeds list really were a means for her to continue her selfish quest to make herself something more than all other Aes Sedai. A god if you will(wanting to challenge the creator). That type of twisted mentality is not really something someone comes back from. Her plans included using the Choden Kal, there-by needing both a man and a woman to wield both sides... When those plans failed, her true nature was revealed. She would have killed Rand, killed Moraine, anyone who stood in her way. Did she ever really serve the Dark One? No. Not like a general fighting a war perhaps.. But the side of the Dark One allowed her the freedom to think and act as she always wanted. Love LTT?? Does someone in love try to kill the one they love?? Ever?

 

Her actions since have been 100% influenced by Moridin. She still is her selfish self, trying but not really risking herself. But she is no longer allowed the freedom to do as she wishes. Almost certainly, Moridin realizes LTT affection for her and is using her again to weaken him and/or distract him for the approaching final confrontation.

 

**

My take on Cyndane's fate. There is a character Rand has not been close to since his reawakenning on Dragonmount. One he has not shared affection for or communicated with in a meaningful way in a long time. (one we know he has to eventually make babies with) She is also a person who knows exactly how to deal with evil darkfriend women and will show NO mercy in dealing with them. The object of Lanfear's "crazyness" on the docks. And she is on her way back to Rand. I think we will get Lanfear vs Aviendha Round 2, and this time Aviendha will have the skill with the One Power to destroy her for good. The ruse might work for a time on Rand, but then Avi will show up and deal with that power hungry wh$$e.

**

 

No offense to your POV. I too, have a soft spot for a redeemed Lanfear. But that's just our own prejudice wanting the best from those described as the "most beautiful" or "most talented"... We reach for that glimmer of hope in them. Just a reflection of our own good nature I fear. She is however, inreversibly corrupted by her own free will.

[Jon Paul]

Which one is LTT and which one is EMT?

 

Well I meant more their relationship with each other rather than the philosophies they espoused.

[gloweye]

I still think Mierin/Lanfear is "redeemed". not becasue she's so good, but because she's so selfish and doesn't like being totured by SH and/or Morridin.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

To add to the portal stone debate. Isn't it said the only aspect of the power that can be channeled while sleeping is spirit? I believe the portal stone required more of the powers to activate than just spirit.

 

As for the redemption. I think Lanfear's pleading is a ruse pushed by Moridin. I doubt either is redeemed. I think the saying about "returning to the light" applies more to characters like Verin or Ingtar.

[Bromo Sapien]

I think everyone's missing a key point in Mierin's argument. Most of the comments are on the why Lanfear would come back. What about the how? Unless Moridin comes back and releases both her and Moghedien, she can't return. Her soul is his. And if anyone breaks it to try and release her, she just becomes a mindless zombie (which might actually be pretty cool. Power-Wielding Zombie Chosen? AWESOME!). As much as some people want her to, it is virtually impossible as far as I can tell, at least without Moridin coming back first.

 

Your "good" deeds list really were a means for her to continue her selfish quest to make herself something more than all other Aes Sedai. A god if you will(wanting to challenge the creator). That type of twisted mentality is not really something someone comes back from. Her plans included using the Choden Kal, there-by needing both a man and a woman to wield both sides... When those plans failed, her true nature was revealed. She would have killed Rand, killed Moraine, anyone who stood in her way. Did she ever really serve the Dark One? No. Not like a general fighting a war perhaps.. But the side of the Dark One allowed her the freedom to think and act as she always wanted. Love LTT?? Does someone in love try to kill the one they love?? Ever?

 

This is a great point. It actually made me stop and go "Whoa" in an Ah-ha! moment. As much as Moghedien wants to beleive she rules Tel'aran'rhiod, it belongs to Lanfear. The one place where you literally can control what you look like, can manipulate the world without being seen, can have as close to god-like powers as possible, Lanfear took control of. And what's more god-like than controlling the head of the Light side, like she's been shown to do all series long. Her reputation is second only to Ishamael for children-scaring before we're introduced to them. She has way too much of a God complex to admit she was wrong and return to the Light.

[Suttree]

As much as Moghedien wants to beleive she rules Tel'aran'rhiod, it belongs to Lanfear.

 

Except for this on Moggy from the BWB...

 

Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear's, despite the latter's claim of sovereignty.

[Bromo Sapien]

My bad, never got around to buying that. I thought it said somewhere in the series that Moghedien's belief of superiority in TAR was simply due to her jealousy of Lanfear. Oh well, apparently I'm wrong on that. But I believe that somewhere else in the novels, Lanfear did say she believed she surpassed Mog, so my above post still holds true to her internal psyche. She still believes she's the "god" of TAR, which feeds her god complex. Hell, the fact that's it's just a belief may help my argument because now it's a delusion.

[Suttree]

My bad, never got around to buying that. I thought it said somewhere in the series that Moghedien's belief of superiority in TAR was simply due to her jealousy of Lanfear. Oh well, apparently I'm wrong on that. But I believe that somewhere else in the novels, Lanfear did say she believed she surpassed Mog, so my above post still holds true to her internal psyche. She still believes she's the "god" of TAR, which feeds her god complex. Hell, the fact that's it's just a belief may help my argument because now it's a delusion.

 

In the text Moggy comments on how Lanfear in her arrogance thinks she is better although it isn't true.

 

So in that regards you are totally right. Lanfear"Daughter of the Night" in her conceit claimed her name and Tar even though Moggy's skills surpassed her own. It seems as if she utilized Tar in a wide spread manner during the War of the Shadow when committing her atrocities as well.

 

BWB

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Aside from these useful pursuits, Lanfear served as a governor of conquered territory at least once. She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's probably time to bring out again that the BWB is not canon, and isn't meant to be taken as such. It's a work of fiction written by a fictional scholar using the best data she had available ( ie. the mixture of truth and lies that James Rigney fed Teresa Patterson about what was really in his notes. )

 

Lanfear is supposed to be second strongest in the Power. No, wait - that's really Aginor. Ummm, no it's...

 

The BWB can't even agree with itself on the order in which the Forsaken went over to the Dark.

 

For all we know, Lanafear and Moghedien are both wrong and it's really Isam or Demandred who is really strongest in T'a'R.

[Suttree]

It's probably time to bring out again that the BWB is not canon, and isn't meant to be taken as such. It's a work of fiction written by a fictional scholar using the best data she had available ( ie. the mixture of truth and lies that James Rigney fed Teresa Patterson about what was really in his notes. )

 

Lanfear is supposed to be second strongest in the Power. No, wait - that's really Aginor. Ummm, no it's...

 

The BWB can't even agree with itself on the order in which the Forsaken went over to the Dark.

 

For all we know, Lanafear and Moghedien are both wrong and it's really Isam or Demandred who is really strongest in T'a'R.

 

True but in relation to Moggy and Lanfear we have textual support backing up the BWB claims. The whole BWB not accurate argument doesn't really hold too much weight when you have in text support as well. It is a work meant to flesh out our understanding of RJ's world and if it was as inaccurate as people always try to suggest when arguing a point(people play that card far too often), nothing in it would ever be true. In this case of Tar we have a straight forward statement of relative skills between two characters. Slayer may very well be better but we are discussing Lanfear's mistaken belief that she rules Tar.

 

As for OP strength in regards to your example above it says...

BWB

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear

 

& for Aginor

 

The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

 

So it's not exact but we have a possibly relating to Lanfear which to me doesn't make it as conflicting as you suggest.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

 

True but in relation to Moggy and Lanfear we have textual support backing up the BWB claims. The whole BWB not accurate argument doesn't really hold too much weight when you have in text support as well. It is a work meant to flesh out our understanding of RJ's world. In this case of Tar we have a straight forward statement of relative skills between two characters. Slayer may very well be better but we are discussing Lanfear's mistaken belief that she rules Tar.

 

 

 

What we have in the books themselves is the thoughts of two characters about which of them is really the Mistress of the World of Dreams.

 

That's not documentation. It's she said, she said. We've seen nothing to confirm either belief. Rather the opposite. Nynaeve, who can barely tie her own shoes in Tel'aran'Rhiod, makes Moggy her prisoner and keeps her that way until Aran'gar frees her. Not exactly a Mighty Aphrodite performance there by the Mogster.

 

We've yet to see Lanfear challenged on her own ground, so who knows how capable she really is.