Gaidal Cain Reborn

[Frost Wynters]

So, in a recent re-read (the last book, i think) Grady asks Perrin to go back to the Black Tower to see his wife and kid. He makes a note of saying the kid is ugly. We already know Olver isn't Gaidal Cain, reborn, but what about Grady's kid? (Gadren Grady) Though while I personally, feel its kinda late for him to be of any use to the story, it just seems not right, that we have Birgitte and no Gaidal Cain in the story in some way. Maybe Andol and the un-turned aes sedai he has with them, plus the women and children from the Tower and escape to Camelyn and Birgitte recognizes him.... Thoughts and opinions anyone?

[Muad Cheade]

I believe Grady's son is too old to be Gaidal Cain. Gaidal is either a babe or a toddler.

[rageofwar1978]

This is I believe one of those gray areas that RJ wrote himself into, I may be wrong but I personally think that when he was creating some parts of the concept of heroes he may have not realized just how much interest would be directed to them. If you doubt this simply look at the number of threads that talk about olver and gaidal cain specifically. TAR is well known to be a place where time is distorted and nearly impossible to count. An hour spent in TAR could be ten in the waking world of vice versa. In the case of gaidal cain Birgitte states that she "thinks he must have been spun back out again" but her reasoning is simply that she has not seen him in some time.

 

When asked to explain this she almost shrugs and explains how the passage of time in TAR works. It is evident that gaidal cain did not approve of Birgitte's involvement with living humans and thus the breaking of the precepts that held her and the other heroes. I think that it is entirely possible that gaidal cain is still sequestered within TAR and has simply stepped away from Birgitte in the hopes that removing himself from her she would return to him and follow the rules. Why gaidal would be that much of a woolhead though escapes me.

 

Gaidal has been Birgitte's lover since time immemorial and thus you'd think he would know how stubborn and mercurial she can be. Especially since Moghedien was involved. It is hard to say for certain but I really dont think Gaidal has been spun back out. It does not fit with the story line. Why would the pattern spin him out to be a babe at Tarmon Gaidon. The pattern uses people in a much smarter way most times.

 

If he has been spun out though I think its safe to assume you will find a reasonably grown man not a babe in swaddling. Since TAR is so odd when it comes to time regardless of when elayne or nyn saw his shadow he could well have been spun out as many years back as was needed to make his presence a boon instead of a useless gesture.

 

Just my two coppers.

[csarmi]

I think that speculating on this should be prosecuted by law :)

 

BTW, time doesn't flow backwards in tel'aran'rhiod so Gaidal Cain is at most several months old. (He was seen in TAR by Nynaeve and we know the soul enters the body some time after inception, long before the baby is born)

[rageofwar1978]

I disagree but without real precedent....shrug :0)

[Majsju]

Why would the pattern spin him out to be a babe at Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Because Rand winning TG does not mean the world will be full of rainbows, and everyone sits around singing kumbaya all the time. If I were a gambling man, i would bet a lot more than two coppers that there will be need for a few Heroes once the dusy after TG settles. Whereas the Heroes that does come when the horn is sounded should be quite capable of doing their thing even if a few are sun out again.

[Luckers]

This is I believe one of those gray areas that RJ wrote himself into, I may be wrong but I personally think that when he was creating some parts of the concept of heroes he may have not realized just how much interest would be directed to them. If you doubt this simply look at the number of threads that talk about olver and gaidal cain specifically. TAR is well known to be a place where time is distorted and nearly impossible to count. An hour spent in TAR could be ten in the waking world of vice versa. In the case of gaidal cain Birgitte states that she "thinks he must have been spun back out again" but her reasoning is simply that she has not seen him in some time.

 

...

 

If he has been spun out though I think its safe to assume you will find a reasonably grown man not a babe in swaddling. Since TAR is so odd when it comes to time regardless of when elayne or nyn saw his shadow he could well have been spun out as many years back as was needed to make his presence a boon instead of a useless gesture.

 

Just my two coppers.

 

 

No, he could not be a grown man. This actually does make perfect sense; time may be wonky between the two worlds, but it always flows forward--this has been consistant with every depiction of the interaction between the waking world, and the dream world, and every comment RJ has ever made about it. In effect, there is no grey area, it has always been shown so.

 

So, between one meeting and the next, a day may pass for Nynaeve and Elayne, whilst a week passes for Birgitte, or the opposite, a week may pass for Nynaeve and Elayne, and a day for Birgitte--but what you will never have is a day may pass for Nynaeve and Elayne, but its yesterday for Birgitte.

 

In effect, an interaction creates a fixed point in time; a point neither timeline can reverse beyond. Once the two worlds touch each other, that moment becomes set.

 

So, when the girls see Gaidal in the dream the two worlds touch and interlock timelines. Gaidal in the dream, and the girls in Tenchico, become a point neither side can turn back on. This creates an absolute age limit on Gaidal--he cannot be in the world prior to that night in Tanchico.

 

Again this has been consistant in every depiction, and RJ has been clear on it.

[dmanmiller34]

We'll just have to wait until Mat blows the horn again and see. If a Ugly dude with a sword comes then we can know for sure that he has not been spun out. Gaidials lack of involvemnt could jsut be him folowing the precepts unlike Brigitte.

 

Persoanlly I think he will come with the Horn and somehow end up saving Brigitte. He'll scoop her up and Nyneave will somehow Heal her back to the pattern. Or she might possibly do some thing heroic at the last battle and rebind herself.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think Gaidal has been spun out and is a baby.

 

Birgitte will die somehow in TG and be spun out later.

 

This fits in with Min's viewing of her being attached to a man much younger and the same man much older. (eg. Gaidal lives through TG and is about 20 when Birgitte is spun out again, then when Birgitte grows up they work together to rebuild/pick up the pieces)

[Asgard Thorin]

I think that speculating on this should be prosecuted by law :)

 

BTW, time doesn't flow backwards in tel'aran'rhiod so Gaidal Cain is at most several months old. (He was seen in TAR by Nynaeve and we know the soul enters the body some time after inception, long before the baby is born)

But it can flow forward faster....I would like to think Gaidal is Olver. At this point, nothing would surprise me.

[Luckers]

I think that speculating on this should be prosecuted by law :)

 

BTW, time doesn't flow backwards in tel'aran'rhiod so Gaidal Cain is at most several months old. (He was seen in TAR by Nynaeve and we know the soul enters the body some time after inception, long before the baby is born)

But it can flow forward faster....I would like to think Gaidal is Olver. At this point, nothing would surprise me.

 

Read my post above--for Gaidal to be Olver, time would need to flow backward. Meetings between the real world and the dream world create fixed points in both time lines--so Gaidal is in the dream when Nynaeve and co. are in Tanchico, and when Nynaeve and co. are in Tanchico Olver is 8 or 9 years old.

 

Therefore for Gaidal to be born as Olver after he encounters Nynaeve, he has to go back on the Timeline (as, remember, the meeting between Nynaeve and Gaidal creates a fixed point for both--a point from which their Timelines must go forward).

 

Gaidal is at most a very young toddler.

[Thor]

Gaidal will be the hero stopping the destruction of Rhuidean by the Sharans who will invade the waste after TG!

[JKN-SW]

We'll just have to wait until Mat blows the horn again and see. If a Ugly dude with a sword comes then we can know for sure that he has not been spun out. Gaidials lack of involvemnt could jsut be him folowing the precepts unlike Brigitte.

 

Persoanlly I think he will come with the Horn and somehow end up saving Brigitte. He'll scoop her up and Nyneave will somehow Heal her back to the pattern. Or she might possibly do some thing heroic at the last battle and rebind herself.

Brandon said that he has already been spun out. So unless that was a mistake, GC will not show up in any important role in WoT.

[michael.clinton83]

Ya, I don't have the links but I know this has already been discussed by RJ and on these boards. Luckers is exactly right.

[Red Hand Man]

If Gadren Grady is Gaidal, Gadren would have to be at most about 1yr old when we meet him in Lord of Chaos (according to the basic timeline on www.encyclopaedia-wot.org).

 

Lord of Chaos Chapter 3 - A Woman's Eyes

 

... The women were not gathering around Taim. In a silent line of worried eyes, they held hard to the children and watched. The youngest, a plump pale haired woman, a boy of four playing with her fingers, was Sora Grady.

 

Unless Rand can't tell the difference between an infant and an old toddler, I'd say he's not Gaidal. Although Rand is said to have misjudged Taim's age...