Rand Under Brandon and the Paralis Net

[Luckers]

Ok, so I split the topic since it had deviated, but it didn't work properly and some posts were lost, including two of mine, and one of Terez'

 

Oops. :S

[Terez]

We know you did it on purpose.

[Luckers]

Yours was the quoted twitter convo if you wanted to re-post.

[Ananta]

I think RJ just decided to add this in later on. It's not like everything in TEotW is in keeping with stuff we learn later on...

[GB]

i dont know if the concept is BS or RJ but if TEotW prologue is an argument, i think given LTT state of mind i can picture him with one, he might not even have remembered he wore one, he was insane and delirious at that point.

 

i dont think that as a general he would not be wearing one, in fact all the more reasons i think, a general would be the target of more attacks, kill him and the whole command structure crumbles, so it makes sense for LTT to be on an all the time ALERT mode, and a paralis net is certainly a ter'angreal that would help in such situations.

 

so even if it a BS idea, i think it fits with the image of LTT. he would have worn one of the paralis net.

consider this : a new ter'angreal, which gives a new form of protection against attacks from the Shadow, when the Forsaken are at the height of their powers, it makes sense for him to have one.

 

thats what i think :0

[MasterAblar]

i dont know if the concept is BS or RJ but if TEotW prologue is an argument, i think given LTT state of mind i can picture him with one, he might not even remembered he wore one, he was insane and delirious at that point.

 

i dont think that as a general he would not be wearing one, in fact all the more reasons i think, a general would be the target of more attacks, kill him and the whole command structure crumbles, so it makes sense for LTT to be on an all the time ALERT mode, and a paralis net is certainly a ter'angreal that would help in such situations.

 

so even if it a BS idea, i think it fits with the image of LTT. he would have worn one of the paralis net.

consider this : a new ter'angreal, which gives a new form of protection against attacks from the Shadow, when the Forsaken are at the height of their powers, it makes sense for him to have one.

 

thats what i think :0

 

I agree, LTT would have been a prime target for the shadows assasins. Furthermore, while it's unlikely that he would go into the thick of the fighting, that doesn't mean he never got into fights. He fought Aginor in the Hall of Servants, Demandred apparently came for him after the founding of the "eighty and one", and I can't see the fight at the gates of Paaren Disen as anything other than a fight between LTT and Ishamael since Ishamael was never a general. It would have been Demandred or Sammael or Bel'al, who would have been leading forces against Paaren Disen not Ishamael.

[FarShainMael]

We first see Cadsuane in ACoS18, and her hair is in a bun and decorated with dangling gold ornaments. These are unlikely to be anything as frivolous as jewellery.. They may not have been described as a paralis-net before TGS22, but they are mentioned several times as being active. Eg the well is the golden hummingbird (WH34), and her shrike maintains a shield (WH35). she can also tell when Rand holds saidin:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/paralis-net.html

 

So I don't think we can call this a BS invention. The name 'paralis-net' may be, but I rather doubt it.

[FarShainMael]

Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.”

 

 

This is from TofM, before they go to meet with the BL leaders. I was wondering how something like that would look like. I don't think it will be something like jewelry. Maybe tie pins and cuffs/ Hmmm, not very likely.

 

Now about those sword and dragon pins...

[Xcorpyo001]

Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.”

 

 

This is from TofM, before they go to meet with the BL leaders. I was wondering how something like that would look like. I don't think it will be something like jewelry. Maybe tie pins and cuffs/ Hmmm, not very likely.

 

Now about those sword and dragon pins...

 

 

If they'll create some now, it will work for the Asha'man.

Maybe insert some in the sword...or better yet, on the scabbard. They are forced to carry those anyway, and I can't say they are using them much.

[MasterAblar]

Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.”

 

 

This is from TofM, before they go to meet with the BL leaders. I was wondering how something like that would look like. I don't think it will be something like jewelry. Maybe tie pins and cuffs/ Hmmm, not very likely.

 

Now about those sword and dragon pins...

 

 

If they'll create some now, it will work for the Asha'man.

Maybe insert some in the sword...or better yet, on the scabbard. They are forced to carry those anyway, and I can't say they are using them much.

 

They do train with them though (or at least some of them do), the swords are sort of their last resort. Well actually I think they're taught hand to hand conmbat as well, or at least Rand had an aiel teaching them when the BT started.

[Luckers]

We first see Cadsuane in ACoS18, and her hair is in a bun and decorated with dangling gold ornaments. These are unlikely to be anything as frivolous as jewellery.. They may not have been described as a paralis-net before TGS22, but they are mentioned several times as being active. Eg the well is the golden hummingbird (WH34), and her shrike maintains a shield (WH35). she can also tell when Rand holds saidin:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/paralis-net.html

 

So I don't think we can call this a BS invention. The name 'paralis-net' may be, but I rather doubt it.

 

 

It's the idea that ter'angreal like Cadsuane's existed in the Age of Legends, in the manner that they did, that I suggest to be Brandon's work, not the existence of Cadsuane's ter'angreal. Indeed we know that to be not true--which I've cited.

 

By the way the Shrike doesn't maintain a shield in itself, it's an angreal allowing her to channel greater amounts of the Power and construct a shield.

[KaptainKaos]

See I don't really understand the questioning of Rand being written as becoming more and more powerful as the Last Battle draws closer. Surely there are enough elements added to his character with what he has gone through and how he has progressed to support him becoming godlike. Especially since gaining a more complete control and balance with Lews Therin's lifetime being his own in one way or another. Not to mention that he seemingly has the support, however mysterious and indirect, of the Creator at this point (I'm thinking specifically of the glow protecting him from madness). To be a champion of the Light RJ had to imagine a person that would certainly seem superhuman to others, even other channelers. I mean what would a savior of humanity be if he wasn't a step above the norm right?

 

I personally like how Brandon has taken the series forward considering all things. The times I notice something I don't necessarily like or where I notice a difference from RJ's style I tend to remind myself that throughout this series with both BS and RJ there are times when I would have like this or that to go differently. This is an incomplete story at this point though. I am not going to jump to conclusions about this characters actions or that characters thought process until the last word has been written and I have read the last book preferably two or three times, hah, although I'm sure I will inadvertently be drawing conclusions while doing the first reading.

[Terez]

See I don't really understand the questioning of Rand being written as becoming more and more powerful as the Last Battle draws closer. Surely there are enough elements added to his character with what he has gone through and how he has progressed to support him becoming godlike.

No, not really.

 

Not to mention that he seemingly has the support, however mysterious and indirect, of the Creator at this point (I'm thinking specifically of the glow protecting him from madness).

I think he warded his own brain from the taint with the Power. Nothing particularly exciting about that.

[Agitel]

To be honest, Rand never seemed to have too much personality before the madness touched him. He was a young, naive kid who generally just wanted to do right in the world and had a sense of principle and justice about him, though not to an extreme extent, mind you. There's a little more than that, and RJ can be subtle in presenting personalities. I certainly am opposed to a can't-do-wrong character, but I don't believe he's there. He's that original boy I described with 400+ years of experience. Hopefully we'll see a more human side of him in the next book. Perhaps he's just a far more appreciated leader and knows how to keep a good game-face now. (Perhaps)

 

All that aside, I really don't see what the paralis net has to do with this. It makes perfect sense for Lews Therin to have worn one or had one given his prominent position and skilland the fact that he's a prime target. You're being overly analytical, in this case, Luckers. Perhaps it would be most effective to have every single last paralis net with an elite trooper, but I only have to look at the world around me to know that there are plenty of exceptions and the world doesn't always work as you describe. The type of overly-logical analysis you're using for this reminds me of Elend from Mistborn. Also, where did you cite that Brandon made up the origins of the paralis net? I'm not denying that he did, but you said you offered a citation that proved he made it up.

 

As for Rand's madness ward, I take it to be a ta'veren effect, much like everything else. I wonder what would happen should his status of a ta'veren disappear should he survive TG.

[mbuehner]

it should go to the elite Aes Sedai involved in the fight--not to general or random soldier either one. On either its a wasted element, much as Cadsuane retaining hers during the Cleansing wasted them--sure either one would have a use for them, but these things were clearly rare, and should have been employed where they were most useful--agents, sabatours, those directly fighting...

 

A few points-

1.In a world of traveling, the notion of who is 'involved in the fight' is questionable.

 

2.Cadsuane retained her net, which kinda undermines your argument. There are obviously reasons (wise or not) for those not directly on the front lines to retain the net. She could have kept the detection ornament and sent off the others, for instance. But, as per point 1 (and also the incident with Rand losing his hand) shows, you never know when you will will need the thing. Demonstrably, there are times when a net would be kept behind the lines. We know because we saw it happen.

 

3.Not having it when you need it could be fatal, not just to the battle but to the entire war against the dark. Its true that 9 times out of 10 you might be wasting the utility by not giving it to someone certain to use it, but its that 10th time that trumps everything else. Your great warrior could be out winning the battle while your king is being checkmated.

 

The analogy I would make is a praetorian guard. They are supposed to be your most skilled and best equipped warriors, but they rarely see battle because they are busy protecting the emperor. Yes, they could tip the balance of a given battle, but the risk of the leader being killed while they are away is greater than the reward of adding their swords to the balance of a given fight. This is just an extension of the logic of keeping your best generals out of the front line. Giving them the best means of protection makes sense as well.

[MasterAblar]

it should go to the elite Aes Sedai involved in the fight--not to general or random soldier either one. On either its a wasted element, much as Cadsuane retaining hers during the Cleansing wasted them--sure either one would have a use for them, but these things were clearly rare, and should have been employed where they were most useful--agents, sabatours, those directly fighting...

 

A few points-

1.In a world of traveling, the notion of who is 'involved in the fight' is questionable.

 

2.Cadsuane retained her net, which kinda undermines your argument. There are obviously reasons (wise or not) for those not directly on the front lines to retain the net. She could have kept the detection ornament and sent off the others, for instance. But, as per point 1 (and also the incident with Rand losing his hand) shows, you never know when you will will need the thing. Demonstrably, there are times when a net would be kept behind the lines. We know because we saw it happen.

 

3.Not having it when you need it could be fatal, not just to the battle but to the entire war against the dark. Its true that 9 times out of 10 you might be wasting the utility by not giving it to someone certain to use it, but its that 10th time that trumps everything else. Your great warrior could be out winning the battle while your king is being checkmated.

 

The analogy I would make is a praetorian guard. They are supposed to be your most skilled and best equipped warriors, but they rarely see battle because they are busy protecting the emperor. Yes, they could tip the balance of a given battle, but the risk of the leader being killed while they are away is greater than the reward of adding their swords to the balance of a given fight. This is just an extension of the logic of keeping your best generals out of the front line. Giving them the best means of protection makes sense as well.

 

The Praetorian Guard? Protect the Emperor? Well I suppose that was the theory...

[mbuehner]

 

The Praetorian Guard? Protect the Emperor? Well I suppose that was the theory...

 

Lol, good point. That was the theory anyway.

[mbuehner]

repost

[Aleator77]

RJ's idea- too big a change for Sanderson to put in, but would have been better written by Jordan. Obviously as it's his masterwork. It cannot be easy for Sanderson to be writing/finishing somebody elses story

 

For me, it's a matter of degree and presentation, in particular to Rand's personality--as in the way he is described, the way his dialogue is structured, and air with which he acts, the degree of the act--which is something which would have been portrayed in the writing of the scene, not the notes, but for all that I won't shy away from making the point that if RJ did leave specific notes for the deification of Rand's personality, it was a poor decision in my opinion--Rand is almost inhuman in his sanctity and air of cool calm, and certainly I don't feel I can identify with him.

 

For all that, I don't believe RJ did leave such notes, given he stated directly that whilst he drew upon Jesus in constructing Rand, he never intended Rand be a stand-in for Jesus, but rather he was more of human messianic figure like Arthur--which I think is the key destinction. Indeed, to me, Rand in TofM reads as if Brandon sat down and thought to himself 'now what would Jesus do', though to be clear, I'm just saying that it reads that way, not that that was what Brandon did. It could be as simple as RJ's notes saying Post-VoG Rand was a much calmer, more enlightened version of himself, and Brandon trying to encapsulate that concept went to the archetype.

 

Alternatively others argue that this is a deception on Brandon's part, and Rand's calm is in fact not as healthy as it seems--that it is an overcompensation by Rand after walking the dark path, and will ultimately lead to him trusting Cyndane or something, which he shouldn't do. We certainly don't see enough of Rand's thoughts to say for sure, but it's an interesting thought.

 

I think a big reason for this is the fact that we're only seeing Rand from other people's perspectives in ToM, and they are all busy remarking how much he has changed. I'm sure from other people's perspective he does seem like a paragon of goodness and virtue compared to mad/dark Rand. He seems much more human and relatable in his own perspective at the end. I guess we'll see how it ends up in the next book.

 

 

See I don't really understand the questioning of Rand being written as becoming more and more powerful as the Last Battle draws closer. Surely there are enough elements added to his character with what he has gone through and how he has progressed to support him becoming godlike.

No, not really.

 

Not to mention that he seemingly has the support, however mysterious and indirect, of the Creator at this point (I'm thinking specifically of the glow protecting him from madness).

I think he warded his own brain from the taint with the Power. Nothing particularly exciting about that.

 

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

[Roxinos]

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

 

She cannot see the weaves themselves, but she can see their effect. And if the effect of Rand's weaving is a golden-threadlike shield between his mind and the taint, then I don't see why Nynaeve's Delving wouldn't be able to detect it in the same way as it detects the taint itself.

[Aleator77]

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

 

She cannot see the weaves themselves, but she can see their effect. And if the effect of Rand's weaving is a golden-threadlike shield between his mind and the taint, then I don't see why Nynaeve's Delving wouldn't be able to detect it in the same way as it detects the taint itself.

 

It just seems odd. Females have never seen Saidin like that before, even on the numerous occasions that they encountered it. The shield around Callandor did not glow, it was invisible to probes of Saidar. Why would a shield of Saidin show up as glowing tendrils? Why would it show up as anything to a female?

 

Personally, I think it will end up being linked to the way Rand wields Light and Power at Maradon, which in turn will be linked all the way back to the Eye of the World.

[Agitel]

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

 

She cannot see the weaves themselves, but she can see their effect. And if the effect of Rand's weaving is a golden-threadlike shield between his mind and the taint, then I don't see why Nynaeve's Delving wouldn't be able to detect it in the same way as it detects the taint itself.

 

It just seems odd. Females have never seen Saidin like that before, even on the numerous occasions that they encountered it. The shield around Callandor did not glow, it was invisible to probes of Saidar. Why would a shield of Saidin show up as glowing tendrils? Why would it show up as anything to a female?

 

Personally, I think it will end up being linked to the way Rand wields Light and Power at Maradon, which in turn will be linked all the way back to the Eye of the World.

 

Are you suggesting that another purpose of the Eye was to essentially boost Rand's resistance to the taint through channeling it?

[Aleator77]

Maybe not exactly in that manner. The posts in the other thread put the idea in my head. I just think its possibly related in some way. They made the eye, and made it pure for some reason that was never explained. If it were just to guard the horn, or to have a separate pool of the power for some use, why not use saidar? They specifically sacrificed themselves to make it for a man for some reason. Then there are the similarities that others have noted between the way Rand is described channeling the Light at The Eye and at Maradon. I just think it is possible. I am not completely sold on the idea myself.

[KaptainKaos]

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

 

She cannot see the weaves themselves, but she can see their effect. And if the effect of Rand's weaving is a golden-threadlike shield between his mind and the taint, then I don't see why Nynaeve's Delving wouldn't be able to detect it in the same way as it detects the taint itself.

 

Yeah but Rand placing a weave inside his head like that sounds an awful lot like Healing or close to Healing himself which channelers cannot do. A channeler cannot even Delve themselves so I don't know if he could do something that produces a glow inside his own body. Although I don't recall what making a ward protecting your dreams specifically involves, a channeler using the One Power on themselves to Heal, wash away fatigue, picking up themselves (flying) and so on are impossible.

 

I really don't see how Rand could attempt to fix something even Nynaeve was horrified to contemplate fixing when he has never shown any skill at Healing or working with things that relate to the brain like Compulsion. Ishamael says in the prologue in Eye of the World that even the best Healers of Age of Legends would have only been able to give Lews Therin a few moments (or minutes maybe) of relative sanity if they could survive getting that close. How would Rand, even with Lews Therin's memories, have been able to accomplish a feat that not even the best Healers/Brain specialists of the Age of Legends could not hope to accomplish?

 

The other thing is that women can still recognize the five powers being used in an active ward even if it is saidin and along with that glow Nynaeve would have "felt" the ward itself. Other women notice the feel of wards, weaves or flows using saidin just as Rand can feel the weaves of saidar holding him from touching the Power when he is captured by the Tower Aes Sedai. He can even tell whether the weaves are active or tied off so I don't see how Nynaeve wouldn't have known saidin was involved in the light protecting Rand from the madness.

[MasterAblar]

How do you reconcile that with the fact that Nynaeve can see it? She wouldn't be able to see Saidin weaves, even if they were there.

 

She cannot see the weaves themselves, but she can see their effect. And if the effect of Rand's weaving is a golden-threadlike shield between his mind and the taint, then I don't see why Nynaeve's Delving wouldn't be able to detect it in the same way as it detects the taint itself.

 

Yeah but Rand placing a weave inside his head like that sounds an awful lot like Healing or close to Healing himself which channelers cannot do. A channeler cannot even Delve themselves so I don't know if he could do something that produces a glow inside his own body. Although I don't recall what making a ward protecting your dreams specifically involves, a channeler using the One Power on themselves to Heal, wash away fatigue, picking up themselves (flying) and so on are impossible.

 

I really don't see how Rand could attempt to fix something even Nynaeve was horrified to contemplate fixing when he has never shown any skill at Healing or working with things that relate to the brain like Compulsion. Ishamael says in the prologue in Eye of the World that even the best Healers of Age of Legends would have only been able to give Lews Therin a few moments (or minutes maybe) of relative sanity if they could survive getting that close. How would Rand, even with Lews Therin's memories, have been able to accomplish a feat that not even the best Healers/Brain specialists of the Age of Legends could not hope to accomplish?

 

The other thing is that women can still recognize the five powers being used in an active ward even if it is saidin and along with that glow Nynaeve would have "felt" the ward itself. Other women notice the feel of wards, weaves or flows using saidin just as Rand can feel the weaves of saidar holding him from touching the Power when he is captured by the Tower Aes Sedai. He can even tell whether the weaves are active or tied off so I don't see how Nynaeve wouldn't have known saidin was involved in the light protecting Rand from the madness.

 

Not to mention that, if he is aware of it, he sort of failed to mention it to Nyneave after she tells him that she can't heal him from the taint.