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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Rand Under Brandon and the Paralis Net


Xcorpyo001
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I'd imagine there was at least one copy of it in the ter'angreal stash that the Aiel carried off from Paaran Diisen at the end of the Second Age. Whether it made it all the way to Rhuidean or not is up for conjecture, but it is possible.

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Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.

 

 

This is from TofM, before they go to meet with the BL leaders. I was wondering how something like that would look like. I don't think it will be something like jewelry. Maybe tie pins and cuffs/ Hmmm, not very likely.

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Early versions of the type rand describes may not even be ornamental. Indeed, note he wears no discernable ter'angreal in the prologue, which is directly after the Strike on Shayol Ghoul--a moment in which he would almost certainly be wearing such a thing, had they existed.

 

Though, frankly that strikes me as a bit of Brandon fiction. Why would a politician or general have that sort of outrigging--especialy if they're rare. It'd go to the elite front-line forces. But Brandon likes Rand and Lews Therin to be the best of everything.

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counterargument, Luckers: Some, if not all, of the ter'angreal of a paralis net help guard against sudden attack from unawares, and Lews Therin, as the primary target of the Shadow in the war, would have had a great use for it, so it's not as far fetched as it might seem.

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I just...I dunno. I get the thing about the EotW prologue, but he was insane at the time. They might have been broken during one of the many fights he had no doubt been in, he might have thrown them away, burned them, or just not been wearing them because he thought the tiny people in his brain might use them to take over the world. If he just killed Ilyena, whom he loved, there is no limit to what he might have done with them, assuming he did in fact have possession of them. Assuming that if it existed, he would be wearing it is assuming that he was rational enough to know he would need it.

 

I also have to wonder if RJ had conceived of the concept of a paralis net at the time he wrote that particular piece.

 

Regarding whether it is of more use to a front-liner...I can't really argue that. But historically a general often had access to the best of equipment whether he was going to be front line or not. And a guard or series of guards wearing a paralis net wouldn't protect him from a weave aimed solely at him the way wearing his own would.

 

I say this merely to make the point that it's not implausible, or that it might not be gratuitous, that's all. :) I'll leave it be from this point on.

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Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.

It could well be that he wore it during testing or just for some specific missions, not that he lounged about the Hall of the Servants in it.

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Rand smiled. “And you’re wearing a full paralis-net in your hair, which includes a Well. I’m certain you

keep it full, and that should be enough to create a single gateway.”

Cadsuane’s face grew expressionless. “I’ve never heard of a paralis-net.”

“Cadsuane Sedai,” Rand said softly. “Your net has a few ornaments I don’t recognize—I suspect it is a

Breaking-era creation. But I was there when the first ones were designed, and I wore the original male

version.

It could well be that he wore it during testing or just for some specific missions, not that he lounged about the Hall of the Servants in it.

 

 

I don't think there was a lot of lounging during the War of the Shadow.

I think Rand and Cads should have a little chat. For example, he may know some of the uses of those Cads did not puzzled out, and the one(s) Rand did not recognized were a latter addition, especially those tuned to point out male channellers.

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@Luckers.

 

1) By your logic, surely a sa'angreal like Callandor would be better on the front lines too?

 

2) Lews Therin was quite involved in combat himself. He would have a lot of use for a Paralis Net, for example we know he personally defeated Ishamael and it's implied Demandred and Sammael too on a number of occasions.

 

3) Putting a paralis net on a front line soldier, however elite, seems really quite silly. As would giving an angreal/sa'angreal to one. Simply put, were that soldier to die, it would be seized by the enemy.

 

So please, hold back with the criticising BS for a bit.

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Wouldn't Rand-LTT know what the two paralis nets do? All Cadusane has to do is swallow her pride and ask the boy.

 

 

 

The DO will seal the Bore himself long before that.

 

Didn't that wilder in the Black Hills school the pride out of her?

 

She had several centuries to put it back in. Please give me an example about a humble Cadsuane, because I can't remember a single one.

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Wouldn't Rand-LTT know what the two paralis nets do? All Cadusane has to do is swallow her pride and ask the boy.

 

 

 

The DO will seal the Bore himself long before that.

 

Didn't that wilder in the Black Hills school the pride out of her?

 

She had several centuries to put it back in. Please give me an example about a humble Cadsuane, because I can't remember a single one.

 

Well she did a pretty epic job of sticking it out and putting pride to the side when Rand banned her. In addition she wasn't afraid to ask for help from Sorilea when needed.

 

It's just that it's very rare that people around her warrant the need to do so, although Rand would qualify now for certain. No she has no issue asking for help if it is needed to serve her fight against the shadow.

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IIRC Semirhage recognises the paralis net in TGS and there's no mention of the term before? So it could be a Brandon concept?

I mean calling it a paralis net and making the device well-known enough for more than one AoL-ite to recognise.

I'm on Lucker's side here, about the Braqndon origin. for specific reasons.

Rand saw Nyn's and Cad's ter'angreals used variously through WH and KoD and he never had a flash of LTT-induced memory in any of those instances, saying to himself that "That blasted xxxx is wearing a paralis net". Also when Cadsuane baits him and slaps him in ACoS (?), he doesn't seem to trigger into LTT - paranoia mode visavis the Net.

The other minorly odd thing - while he didn't see Cadsuane use her PN as a well in Far Madding, he did see Nyn do so and he did see Cad use hers as a disrupter versus Semi. Yet, he never has a PoV flash about the thing.

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@Luckers.

 

1) By your logic, surely a sa'angreal like Callandor would be better on the front lines too?

 

 

Hmm, no I don't think so. A sa'angreal, as a power amplifier, should probably go to the most capable weaver, who doesn't need to be in the thick of it to be effective--indeed, people of that sort of expertise probably wouldn't be risked unless there was great need (like the Sealing of the Bore with Lews Therin). Angreal on the other hand, I could see being specifically given to the elite forces in the same way as I suggest a paralis-net, because that would have practical value--but sa'angreal would be like arming them with nukes.

 

A perfect example is the Cleansing. Note that Cadsuane keeps the Callandor circle on the hilltop, because that's were Callandor's power is of the most use--but she gives Nynaeve's paralis-net to Alivia, not Elza, because it is in the grit of the fight that a paralis-net is of the most use. Cadsuane's own paralis-net went largely unused, and it is worth noting that the one ter'angreal that she did use (the swallow) was one of those Age of Legenders had no knowledge of, and therefore would not have been present on any paralis-net Lews Therin might have used.

 

2) Lews Therin was quite involved in combat himself. He would have a lot of use for a Paralis Net, for example we know he personally defeated Ishamael and it's implied Demandred and Sammael too on a number of occasions.

 

Actually I rather doubt Lews Therin saw all that much personal action. As First Amongst Servants and a general, to do so would be foolish, as Mat, Bashere or Demandred would tell you, and by all accounts Lews Therin was a very wise general. I'm not even entirely convinced that he fought Ishamael directly. Ishy stated that Lews Therin 'defeated him at the gates of Paaren Disen', which sounds more to me like a Lews Therin organised defence beat an Ishamael organised seige, but even if it did involve direct combat it, like the Cleansing, would have been a rarity in my opinion--I can't see the First Amongst Servants risking himself for anything but great need. It would be irresponsible.

 

3) Putting a paralis net on a front line soldier, however elite, seems really quite silly. As would giving an angreal/sa'angreal to one. Simply put, were that soldier to die, it would be seized by the enemy.

 

I'm not talking of joe-average soldier. It should go to the elite Aes Sedai involved in the fight--not to general or random soldier either one. On either its a wasted element, much as Cadsuane retaining hers during the Cleansing wasted them--sure either one would have a use for them, but these things were clearly rare, and should have been employed where they were most useful--agents, sabatours, those directly fighting...

 

So please, hold back with the criticising BS for a bit.

 

I'm really opposed to the deification of Rand, so perhaps I am being over-sensitive here--in fact I'll be honest, I am, a reaction to it suddenly seeming that Rand must have all the best toys, claims to the greatest titles, the most skill in channeling, etc.

 

All that aside, however, that scene was bluntly written, which goes to the heart of my biggest problem with Brandon's writing--the lack of polish and editing. That may be unfair on my part, given the presure for speedy delivery from the fandom, and especially in light of Brandon's acknowledgement of this issue, and his stated intention to take more time on aMoL. *shrug*.

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So please, hold back with the criticising BS for a bit.

 

I'm really opposed to the deification of Rand, so perhaps I am being over-sensitive here--in fact I'll be honest, I am, a reaction to it suddenly seeming that Rand must have all the best toys, claims to the greatest titles, the most skill in channeling, etc.

 

All that aside, however, that scene was bluntly written, which goes to the heart of my biggest problem with Brandon's writing--the lack of polish and editing. That may be unfair on my part, given the presure for speedy delivery from the fandom, and especially in light of Brandon's acknowledgement of this issue, and his stated intention to take more time on aMoL. *shrug*.

 

Why when it is a perfectly valid criticism?

 

I regards to the writing I have agreed with Luckers in other threads on this topic. The lack of polish and editing took away from the quality of TGS and ToM to a large extent. I find myself shocked when people list BS's two towards the top in relation to the WoT books. To me this issue is highlighted most in subsequent rereads which is really sad considering how much I have enjoyed going over and over RJ's works. I really hope that with aMoL the extra time allows him to surprise us with large jump in the quality of the finished product.

Edited by Suttree
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I don't think it's aproblem with the quality of Sandersons writing, but rather his style. I'm a big fan of Sanderson, I'm reading the Mistborn trilogy now, but quite simply he's not the wordsmith that RJ was. The more I read of Sanderson's own works the more I'm beginning to think they may have made a boo-boo hiring him to finish WoT. But, as I understand it no other autho out there was willing to dedicate so much time and passion to the project

 

 

I'm really opposed to the deification of Rand

 

RJ's idea- too big a change for Sanderson to put in, but would have been better written by Jordan. Obviously as it's his masterwork. It cannot be easy for Sanderson to be writing/finishing somebody elses story

Edited by Darren heron-Mark Clayden
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RJ's idea- too big a change for Sanderson to put in, but would have been better written by Jordan. Obviously as it's his masterwork. It cannot be easy for Sanderson to be writing/finishing somebody elses story

 

For me, it's a matter of degree and presentation, in particular to Rand's personality--as in the way he is described, the way his dialogue is structured, and air with which he acts, the degree of the act--which is something which would have been portrayed in the writing of the scene, not the notes, but for all that I won't shy away from making the point that if RJ did leave specific notes for the deification of Rand's personality, it was a poor decision in my opinion--Rand is almost inhuman in his sanctity and air of cool calm, and certainly I don't feel I can identify with him.

 

For all that, I don't believe RJ did leave such notes, given he stated directly that whilst he drew upon Jesus in constructing Rand, he never intended Rand be a stand-in for Jesus, but rather he was more of human messianic figure like Arthur--which I think is the key destinction. Indeed, to me, Rand in TofM reads as if Brandon sat down and thought to himself 'now what would Jesus do', though to be clear, I'm just saying that it reads that way, not that that was what Brandon did. It could be as simple as RJ's notes saying Post-VoG Rand was a much calmer, more enlightened version of himself, and Brandon trying to encapsulate that concept went to the archetype.

 

Alternatively others argue that this is a deception on Brandon's part, and Rand's calm is in fact not as healthy as it seems--that it is an overcompensation by Rand after walking the dark path, and will ultimately lead to him trusting Cyndane or something, which he shouldn't do. We certainly don't see enough of Rand's thoughts to say for sure, but it's an interesting thought.

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It could be as simple as RJ's notes saying Post-VoG Rand was a much calmer, more enlightened version of himself, and Brandon trying to encapsulate that concept went to the archetype

 

I dunno mate, this is such a big change in him that the notes on him would have been extensive.

 

But ur the DM expert on WoT, thats what the ToM video preview said. (At least thats the video I think u r in) So I guess I should bow down to Luckers' wisdom as he knows all, and nobody else knows squat :wink:

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You didn't really read what I wrote though--I'm not saying the notes didn't touch this, they may even have been specific and extensive, as you suggest (though in large my feeling is that the notes are no where near as extensive as the Fandom like to believe). They may state specifically--the 'one with the land' becomes fact, darkfriends cannot look at him, he becames an incredibly capable channeler--all these things aren't stretches, but that still leaves Rand's depicition up to Brandon's interpretation. When does 'he's more stable and enlightened' cross from human Arthur to god-like Jesus? The answer--when its being written--though again I reiterate my comment that even if this was RJ's intention, I don't like it myself. I feel when characters get too god-like, or even just too perfect, then it robs them of their human interest.

 

Brandon and I discussed this, in a way, when we were speaking of our different opinions over Cadsuane. One person can take a set of points about someone, and construct a very description of a set of actions. So yes, as I said, to me it is a matter of degree and presentation, not effect.

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Alternatively others argue that this is a deception on Brandon's part, and Rand's calm is in fact not as healthy as it seems--that it is an overcompensation by Rand after walking the dark path, and will ultimately lead to him trusting Cyndane or something, which he shouldn't do. We certainly don't see enough of Rand's thoughts to say for sure, but it's an interesting thought.

I suppose I am one of those others, though I believe it's a deception to cover for the fact that Rand and Moridin are still linked. Since you agree that they are, doesn't that destroy the Jesus parallel just a little bit? I think RJ's main distinction is that Rand is a human with human imperfections, and so this super-Rand seems to me to be setting up a contrast. There are some elements of the writing that didn't really work for me, to be sure, but I don't think that Rand has quite ascended yet. I do believe we were meant to believe that, and Brandon has said repeatedly that we weren't given his POV for a reason - his POV that would show us how human he still is.

 

One place where I felt like the religion slipped in a little bit was when Rand suggested that Moridin's logic had destroyed him. That is a common religious sentiment in my experience, that too much logic necessarily leads to inhumanity. But it's hard to say how much it affected Jesus Rand; this might just be Rand's Garden of Gethsemane moment - or rather, Dragonmount was that moment, and everything since has been the product of his acceptance of his fate. (To eternally be the Pattern's sacrificial lamb, over and over again.) The coming fall will be a product of his human imperfections, and that is what distinguishes him from Jesus, who knew Judas would betray him before it happened. Arthur got blindsided by Mordred, and the Mordred parallel in WoT is the most complex of any of the parallels from myth and legend in its distribution, so obviously Rand's death is more tied up with Arthur despite the 'sacrifice' prophecies (obviously Rand is not going to die for anyone's sins, but to sever the link with Moridin). And the fun part is, Mat is Judas.

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I suppose I am one of those others, though I believe it's a deception to cover for the fact that Rand and Moridin are still linked. Since you agree that they are, doesn't that destroy the Jesus parallel just a little bit?

 

That's why I began that comment with 'alternatively'.

 

I think RJ's main distinction is that Rand is a human with human imperfections, and so this super-Rand seems to me to be setting up a contrast. There are some elements of the writing that didn't really work for me, to be sure, but I don't think that Rand has quite ascended yet. I do believe we were meant to believe that, and Brandon has said repeatedly that we weren't given his POV for a reason - his POV that would show us how human he still is.

 

That is what I am hoping for at this stage as well, though I don't know how likely it will be. If Rand's perfection is merely a plot-ploy I'll still think it too bluntly done, but at least that bears the hope that we'll get Rand back as a real three-dimensional character at some stage.

 

One place where I felt like the religion slipped in a little bit was when Rand suggested that Moridin's logic had destroyed him. That is a common religious sentiment in my experience, that too much logic necessarily leads to inhumanity. But it's hard to say how much it affected Jesus Rand; this might just be Rand's Garden of Gethsemane moment - or rather, Dragonmount was that moment, and everything since has been the product of his acceptance of his fate. (To eternally be the Pattern's sacrificial lamb, over and over again.) The coming fall will be a product of his human imperfections, and that is what distinguishes him from Jesus, who knew Judas would betray him before it happened. Arthur got blindsided by Mordred, and the Mordred parallel in WoT is the most complex of any of the parallels from myth and legend in its distribution, so obviously Rand's death is more tied up with Arthur despite the 'sacrifice' prophecies (obviously Rand is not going to die for anyone's sins, but to sever the link with Moridin). And the fun part is, Mat is Judas.

 

You're speaking of parallels here, which isn't really my problem. My issues were with depiction, Rand's 'to forgive is divine' moment with Weiramon and Anaiyella, the Maradon scene (read with respect purely to Rand's manner), the whole conversation leading up to the Borderland meeting. The whole deal has the feel of a religious archetype. The mixture of benevolence, wisdom and the hint of almost otherworldly knowledge.

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