Rand at Maradon

[jpoppin23]

Ishmael gives an explanation to one of the chosen saying that he is the right hand of the dark one. We find out morridin is ishmael because of the link he has with rand. Not only that, but in the beginning of the eye of the world ishmael and rand have been incarnating since the beginning of the wheel. That to me suggests rand is the right hand of the creator. He has the ability to identify darkfriends or anyone sworn to the dark one as an ability from that creator to protect his purposes in his quest to override the shadow. At maradon he displays his power where he uses it to seek out shadowspawn only where he doesn't even destroy the saldeans fortress on the hill. Where ever it is that rand goes he's followed by an aura of light that shines through the dark ones touch of the sky. Rand, LTT, the dragon, is the representation of the creator in the world of life. (in my opinion). So I say when he accepts himself on dragonmount and reintegrates with all of his past lives by embracing love and compassion, it was not necessarily a test of refusing the dark one, but safety measure that someone would not turn to the dark with all the knowledge and power rand now posesses. I sort of lost my train of thought but that's my basic understanding of it

[TheAngryDruid]

I voted for 2.

 

I think it has more to do with his being able to access all of LTT's knowledge from the AoL and utilize his abilities more effectively than before.

 

We have seen glimpses of this type of thing before, though aided (in EoTW with the Eye, or in the Stone with Callandor, or even at the Manor with some help, or against the Seanchan). That's at least 4 instances of Rand (or other channelers) routing a large group of enemies with the OP.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Rand does have some angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal on his person that aids him somehow.

[Thrasymachus]

I voted for "something unprecedented" in option one. Channeling the One Power is already a "godlike" power, and it's already been established that Rand is as strong in the One Power as any male could be, so he's already the most "godlike" of all the "godlike" folks running around Randland. He clearly doesn't have infinite stamina, as he's shown to be tired out after his feat. The important feature of the first option, which is not mutually exclusive to the second, is that Rand has attained something unprecedented in this or any other Turning of the Wheel, much as has Padan Fain.

 

The events at Maradon seem far beyond the capacities of any individual channeler, no matter how strong, unless they possessed a sa'angreal. The arguments against Rand's specialness in the OP are quite good and even convincing, but do not definitively prove the case. For one thing, weaving such thick cables of the Power to create weather phenomenon seems to require a great deal of effort and strength, and Rand is not only altering the weather, but creating dozens of fire-tornados, hundreds, if not thousands of deathgates, spikes of ice, thousands of bolts of lightning, earthquakes, fireballs, etc. He's got to be splitting his weaving at least a thousand different ways at all times for over an hour, using weaves that only the strongest channelers could create even individually. He caused more destruction and won more decisively at Maradon than the hundreds of male and female channelers did at Dumai's Wells. And he apparently did it without having even a modest angreal. Keep in mind that Rand can be captured by a circle of 13 and held by a circle of 6 of the weakest female channelers. Add male channelers to the circle, and you could probably get away with less. We've never seen even large circles of channelers being used to such effect, and many of the channelers at Dumai's Wells were definitely linked. While it is likely that those channelers lack the knowledge of weaves that Rand possesses, many of the weaves Rand uses at Maradon appear to be fairly simple. Spikes of ice from the air, fireballs, lightning strikes, rending the earth, and even tornados of fire and water have been produced by other channelers before, but even in battles where a number of channelers face a non-channeling army, we don't see such weaves employed to the effect Rand creates at Maradon.

 

So it seems to me that there's something synergistic going on here with Rand's enlightenment and his channeling ability. I think it's likely that Rand's integration with his past lives, and the subsequent ability it has given him with the Power, is unique in the turnings of the wheel, just as the merging of Mordeth with the Dark One's hound Padan Fain is unique to this turning. I do not think that another equally powerful and Talented channeler as Rand could ever be trained to reproduce what Rand did at Maradon. That said, I feel like the OP, quite unintentionally, I'm sure, is straw-manning the position of "godlike" Rand. The most evidence produced against it is that the OP feels that it would undermine the plot to have Rand become such a demi-god, and at least some of the effects of Maradon can be accounted for by how others are shown to be able to channel. But in order to cling to this notion, integrated Rand is supposed to be more skilled and still more powerful than any other channeler ever. I'm not sure I see the difference in positions. The real question is whether Rand's being infused with the Light synergizes with his LTT knowledge and his own innate strength. I think being Light infused protects Rand from channeling far more of the Power than he should otherwise be able to, and gives him sufficient clarity of concentration to be able to split his weaving in so many different ways. In effect, in the right situations, being infused with the Light is a natural sa'angreal.

[Kahsm]

I can barely focus one 1 thing at a time when i'm pissed ,let alone hundreds.

 

Rand MUST be superman

 

Well, my suggestion was that it wasn't really hundreds of weaves at a time. It was cloud dancing, which is described as being insanely complex and something naeff would never have seen before. Remember, the windfinders' "cable thick" flows, intricately woven, stretched across the sky on open water.

 

I voted for 2.

 

I think it has more to do with his being able to access all of LTT's knowledge from the AoL and utilize his abilities more effectively than before.

 

We have seen glimpses of this type of thing before, though aided (in EoTW with the Eye, or in the Stone with Callandor, or even at the Manor with some help, or against the Seanchan). That's at least 4 instances of Rand (or other channelers) routing a large group of enemies with the OP.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if Rand does have some angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal on his person that aids him somehow.

 

Right, but access to AoL memories doesn't necessarily make him better than the Chosen. Option 2 is more like, he's gone beyond AoL levels. Option 3 is AoL stuff, like if Ishy switched places with Rand at Maradon (and didn't use TP) could he have done something similar. I suggest he could, cause he'd use the same techniques.

 

But if Rand and Ishy (pre Moridin version) went head-to-head with Rand as he is now, it'd probably still just be balefire laser tag -- single elimination.

[AlwaysLurking]

“It came too close to a confrontation between us,” Rand said. “That must happen at Shayol Ghul, and at the right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me”

 

This statement to me, along with his new found ability to identify/affect Servants of the DO are not explained by anything other than something unprecedented having happened at VoG

 

The fact that this same issue didn't arise when he cleansed the taint from Saidin, which was much more intrusive on the DO's plans, a direct assault on his power, and involved a much larger amount of Saidin being involved for a much longer time, indicates that this was something different. Unless we allow that RJ/BS totally missed something here, that statement is very indicative that this was no usual channeling of the OP.

 

I am not prepared to state exactly what it was, but the signs are very telling that it was more. I think what we are seeing is the full mature strength of the Dragon Reborn. The Dragon Reborn is the Patterns answer to the intrusion of the DO into its domain.

 

I posted this and more in a different thread, but the bottom line is that very fact that the DO serves as a source of available power to channel implies that the Creator has the same. The OP is of the Pattern, created for the Pattern, and usable by those within the Pattern. The DO and the Creator are outside of the Pattern, it is not even a large logical leap, based on what we know about the nature of the DO and his power, to reach the conclusion that the Creator has the same.

 

In a lot of ways, this has made the entire story become more palatable to me than it ever has. No man, even at the natural maximum power level a man can reach, could ever hope to deal with the DO directly, there has to be something greater that he is plugged into that is on the same level as the DO (who is on the level of the Creator even if slightly less powerful) in order to make it believable that he can deal with the external threat to the Pattern. I know this is my opinion, but that statement just doesn't make sense in context of what is known so far about the DO and the OP and normal male channelers.

[Kahsm]

“It came too close to a confrontation between us,” Rand said. “That must happen at Shayol Ghul, and at the right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me”

 

This statement to me, along with his new found ability to identify/affect Servants of the DO are not explained by anything other than something unprecedented having happened at VoG

 

The fact that this same issue didn't arise when he cleansed the taint from Saidin, which was much more intrusive on the DO's plans, a direct assault on his power, and involved a much larger amount of Saidin being involved for a much longer time, indicates that this was something different. Unless we allow that RJ/BS totally missed something here, that statement is very indicative that this was no usual channeling of the OP.

 

I am not prepared to state exactly what it was, but the signs are very telling that it was more. I think what we are seeing is the full mature strength of the Dragon Reborn. The Dragon Reborn is the Patterns answer to the intrusion of the DO into its domain.

 

I posted this and more in a different thread, but the bottom line is that very fact that the DO serves as a source of available power to channel implies that the Creator has the same. The OP is of the Pattern, created for the Pattern, and usable by those within the Pattern. The DO and the Creator are outside of the Pattern, it is not even a large logical leap, based on what we know about the nature of the DO and his power, to reach the conclusion that the Creator has the same.

 

In a lot of ways, this has made the entire story become more palatable to me than it ever has. No man, even at the natural maximum power level a man can reach, could ever hope to deal with the DO directly, there has to be something greater that he is plugged into that is on the same level as the DO (who is on the level of the Creator even if slightly less powerful) in order to make it believable that he can deal with the external threat to the Pattern. I know this is my opinion, but that statement just doesn't make sense in context of what is known so far about the DO and the OP and normal male channelers.

 

Except he was clearly channeling OP, as naeff could see the flows. And I'm not saying he doesn't have crazy powers. Crazy powers do exist, even unique ones to this turning (if not ever) like Fain. I was suggesting that his channeling is not one of them.

 

Most people seem to feel that LTT was right when he said just being more powerful isn't going to defeat the DO. And Rand seems to agree (with himself? shocking?) since he destroyed the Choden Kal. So what would the point be of the Dragon being specially powerful?

 

As a counter theory. Maybe using us DF finding powers draws the DO. And since he had it turned up to full power (causing dude to tear out his eyes) that's what almost caused the confrontation.

 

Rand doesn't have to kill or defeat the entirety of the DO's power, just push him back out and close/heal/seal the bore. Even when he breaks the seals I'd assume the DO would go back to pre-sealing power levels, which still wasn't enough for him to destroy everything or he would have. And if LTT was powerful enough (but with poor social structure support), then why does Rand need to be stronger?

[bobarose]

get used to his powers because they will be shared by man and women alike

after he unites both sides of the sources together.as they should be.

[AlwaysLurking]

I did not mean to imply that Rand was not channeling the OP.

 

Maybe I was not completely clear with my points:

1) The Creator having Power unique to him is implicit with the DO having unique power (I have read many posts complaining or arguing against a 3rd power). However, this does not mean that this is what Rand was channeling here, and I never meant to say that it was, as you are correct that Naeff could see the weaves.

 

2) Something unique happened at VoG, maybe it was the Pattern kicking in the Full strength of the Dragon Reborn, maybe Rand now has enhanced access to the OP(which is at least hinted at by the Vision of his children having enhanced channeling abilities), or it could be access to some measure/protection directly from the Creator. While we don't know exactly what happened, it is safe to assume that something unique happened there.

 

3) Rand has a singular ability with manipulating the OP. I think the skill that was displayed at Maradon was uniquely Rand's. We are getting a glimpse of the breathtaking skill of the most adept channeler in History, who now has access to the multiple lifetimes of developing this skill.

 

4) Something about Rand powering up to full power now has the potential to draw the DO into a direct confrontation. This is new since VoG, thus reinforcing the uniqueness of what happened in VoG.

[Kahsm]

I did not mean to imply that Rand was not channeling the OP.

 

Maybe I was not completely clear with my points:

1) The Creator having Power unique to him is implicit with the DO having unique power (I have read many posts complaining or arguing against a 3rd power). However, this does not mean that this is what Rand was channeling here, and I never meant to say that it was, as you are correct that Naeff could see the weaves.

 

2) Something unique happened at VoG, maybe it was the Pattern kicking in the Full strength of the Dragon Reborn, maybe Rand now has enhanced access to the OP(which is at least hinted at by the Vision of his children having enhanced channeling abilities), or it could be access to some measure/protection directly from the Creator. While we don't know exactly what happened, it is safe to assume that something unique happened there.

 

3) Rand has a singular ability with manipulating the OP. I think the skill that was displayed at Maradon was uniquely Rand's. We are getting a glimpse of the breathtaking skill of the most adept channeler in History, who now has access to the multiple lifetimes of developing this skill.

 

4) Something about Rand powering up to full power now has the potential to draw the DO into a direct confrontation. This is new since VoG, thus reinforcing the uniqueness of what happened in VoG.

 

I agree with most of this, though number 3 I'm a little unclear on. Any of the chosen could have the same knowledge, and Ishy (if he chose to use OP at some point for some reason) could be just as strong and just as skilled.

 

And do you mean multiple lifetimes as in Rand & LTT or are you suggesting he has access to all CoL lives? I think the latter is still up for debate. I don't remember him referencing any memories other than LTT ones, unlike Briggs or Mat who have various lives in their heads. Though we don't get to see in Rand's head at all. But the "Rand Sedai" moment and his meeting in the WT with Eggs suggest to me it's just Rand and LTT, the dragons -- not all the CoLs ever. And if that is the case, then he's just a 'typical' AoL super-star?

[Suttree]

And do you mean multiple lifetimes as in Rand & LTT or are you suggesting he has access to all CoL lives? I think the latter is still up for debate.

 

Indeed, although he remembered them all on the mountain it was just for a brief moment in time. He now only has memories of his last incarnation as LTT.

[Kahsm]

And do you mean multiple lifetimes as in Rand & LTT or are you suggesting he has access to all CoL lives? I think the latter is still up for debate.

 

Indeed, although he remembered them all on the mountain it was just for a brief moment in time. He now only has memories of his last incarnation as LTT.

 

Right. At most I might accept that the former lives are like the Rhuidean glass columns, where after you've done the 'visions' most of it gets blurred and not-quite-remembered, but the memories are triggered as needed, or something like that.

[Lisa Campbell]

In Apples First (chapter 1 of TofM) Rand indicates that he can remember all of his past lives but that he can only glance quickly at them or else he'll suffer if he looks for too long.

 

There are always things of use around, if you look closely enough. You can't stare at them too long. To learn but not be overwhelmed, that is the balance.

[AlwaysLurking]

I agree with most of this, though number 3 I'm a little unclear on. Any of the chosen could have the same knowledge, and Ishy (if he chose to use OP at some point for some reason) could be just as strong and just as skilled.

 

The display of skill shown to us at Maradon was unique. We have never seen this level of skill in weaving the OP from any channeler before either directly or in History. I was trying to make a point as to why I picked Option #2 in the poll above. RJ has made it clear that Raw Power in the OP is not necessarily the deciding factor in a contest between channelers. We know that Ishy was at, or nearly at LTT's same Power Level in the OP, yet LTT was still the best. The display at Maradon shows us why. Rand/LTT was not only at the maximum power level (as far as we know) possible for a male channeler, he also had the finest control over that power as well.

 

I also think you cant discount the description of Rand seeing all of his past lives at VoG, if it didn't mean anything, it would not have been added to the description.

 

I will admit that it is possible that there was something else at play because of the "Light and Power" comments, however, there is nothing to indicate that the skill with which whatever Power Rand was channeling wasn't entirely his own.

[Entreri]

Cross between 1 and 2.

 

I would say continual access (e.g. his children with Aviendha), I think he may be stronger than he was as LTT (given his display at Maradon, circle of 13 comment by Egwene).

 

As we have seen, OP strength level can be modified (Cyndane/Lanfear, Moraine, Siuan, Leane), thus precedence.

 

LTT was the greatest channeler in AoL, however, once Ishamael started channeling TP, he was the greater.

 

Ishamael TP might be able to take out the other 12 Forsaken at once by himself. Callandor barely did it last time (in TAR), when Ishamael actually decided to kill Rand instead of turning him like in book1 and book2.

 

In the inevitable confrontation between the two, Rand with merely LTT's OP strength and knowledge would have no chance against Ishamael. Rand would need to be willing to use the TP again and it is very doubtful he would. And to use Callandor, he needs to carry around 2 women he can trust with him always...Thus he is at a massive disadvantage facing the Nae'blis.

 

 

 

 

 

Only his display at the Stone of Tear with Callandor comes remotely close to what he did at Maradon. Still, at Maradon his display of Power was greater still.

 

That display at Maradon was greater than what Rand (with LTT persona controlling him, thus the capability of LTT in AOL) and 25 channelers were able to accomplish against only 100,000 Trollocs. Keep in mind that Logain, Alivia, Nyaneve+angreal, Cadusane+angreal were there (thus 4 channelers with Forsaken strength). Rand at Maradon was probably facing off against closer to 1 million Trollocs et al (an army that would sweep aside everything, with the possible exception of the Seanchan according to Iturlade).

 

None of the Forsaken (unless they have a sa'angreal) would be able to do what Rand did at Maradon. The only exception I think is TP Ishamael. The amount of TP one can wield depends on what Shai'tan allows (trickle for Grandael, massive amount for Ishamael) and I suppose what a human can handle (which may not be based on OP strength limitations).

[Suttree]

As we have seen, OP strength level can be modified (Cyndane/Lanfear, Moraine, Siuan, Leane), thus precedence.

 

Can't remember, is there a precedence for OP strength being modified up? Those are all examples of channelers going the other way due to severing/finns siphoning.

 

Ishamael TP might be able to take out the other 12 Forsaken at once by himself.

 

What makes you think that?

 

That display at Maradon was greater than what Rand (with LTT persona controlling him, thus the capability of LTT in AOL) and 25 channelers were able to accomplish against only 100,000 Trollocs. Keep in mind that Logain, Alivia, Nyaneve+angreal, Cadusane+angreal were there (thus 4 channelers with Forsaken strength). Rand at Maradon was probably facing off against closer to 1 million Trollocs et al (an army that would sweep aside everything, with the possible exception of the Seanchan according to Iturlade).

 

Don't get me wrong it was a very impressive feat, not sure how many there were total but a million seems a bit much. In ToM it say he killed "Tens of thousands of dead trollocs smoldering". A portion of the original force escaped and ran away as trollocs are prone to do, the second things start looking bad. "Entire Legions of them turned and fled, stumbling up the hillside and over one another, fleeing back toward the Blight."

 

As for the fight at the farmhouse Liol mentions "Trollocs as far as he could see left and right. Not thousands. Tens of thousands.

[Thor]

option 3 obviously, i have said it multiple times before already, he already did the same (and more) at the battle of cairhien.

[Entreri]

option 3 obviously, i have said it multiple times before already, he already did the same (and more) at the battle of cairhien.

 

I see, he faced off against an army that was probably a million Shadowspawn all by himself (without angreal or sa'angreal) and defeated it, an army that would destroy all Randlander armies (except WH, due to 1000 AS). The smallest this Trolloc army could be is 1/2 million, given its description/abilities to take out Randlander armies.

 

Keep in mind that Ituralde, who easily defeated 100,000+ Seanchan army with many dozens and dozens of damane, who was going to face off against another Senachan army several times that size said: "There won't be anything in Saldaea, Andor or Arad Doman that can stop it. Please tell me the Lord Dragon made peace with the Seanchan, as he promised?"

 

 

 

Rand will eventually have to face off against Moridin. If he is merely LTT 1.0, he will lose.

 

 

True Power >> Saidin or Saidar

 

TP wielder can sense (Watcher/Ishamael in tCoS) and undoubtedly see saidin and saidar weaves. Saidin and saidar wielders are clueless and blind in comparison to the presence of the TP. Think of the possibilities of that alone.

 

TP wielder can do things that saidin and saidar cannot do (see Grandael). TP wielder can probably destroy cuendillar, destroy a gholam and simultaneously eat apple pie while doing it.

 

TP wielder may not be limited by OP strength maximum. Grandael wields a trickle, Ishamael wields a massive amount.

[Never]

 

Keep in mind that Ituralde, who easily defeated 100,000+ Seanchan army with many dozens and dozens of damane, who was going to face off against another Senachan army several times that size said: "There won't be anything in Saldaea, Andor or Arad Doman that can stop it. Please tell me the Lord Dragon made peace with the Seanchan, as he promised?"

 

 

 

Ituralde lost half his forces in the battle where he defeated the Seanchan. I'd hardly call that easily.

[Entreri]

 

Keep in mind that Ituralde, who easily defeated 100,000+ Seanchan army with many dozens and dozens of damane, who was going to face off against another Senachan army several times that size said: "There won't be anything in Saldaea, Andor or Arad Doman that can stop it. Please tell me the Lord Dragon made peace with the Seanchan, as he promised?"

 

 

 

Ituralde lost half his forces in the battle where he defeated the Seanchan. I'd hardly call that easily.

 

Actually, Ituralde destroyed a force of 300,000 Seanchan with at least 100 damane (probably 200 damane).

 

In his PoV it suggests this: "On any other battlefield, fifty thousand causalities would have shamed and angered him. But he'd faced down a force three times his size and one with damane at that".

 

200 damane should be able to face off against an army 10 times the size of Ituralde, if there were no opposing channelers.

 

"This army had at least a HUNDRED pairs, PROBABLY MORE". The Seanchan were superior in all areas according to Ituralde...except they were facing off against likely the 2nd best general in the world (#1 is obviously Mat).

 

 

Ituralde THE DESTROYER. Too bad it is the TG, otherwise Rand should hire him to destroy the rest of the Seanchan, with Asha'man at his side, easily done.

[Never]

 

Actually, Ituralde destroyed a force of 300,000 Seanchan with at least 100 damane (probably 200 damane).

 

In his PoV it suggests this: "On any other battlefield, fifty thousand causalities would have shamed and angered him. But he'd faced down a force three times his size and one with damane at that".

 

200 damane should be able to face off against an army 10 times the size of Ituralde, if there were no opposing channelers.

 

"This army had at least a HUNDRED pairs, PROBABLY MORE". The Seanchan were superior in all areas according to Ituralde...except they were facing off against likely the 2nd best general in the world (#1 is obviously Mat).

 

 

Ituralde THE DESTROYER. Too bad it is the TG, otherwise Rand should hire him to destroy the rest of the Seanchan, with Asha'man at his side, easily done.

 

 

 

Yes, but I wasn't disputing any of this. I didn't say that the battle at Darluna wasn't a great achievement, I was saying that when you win a battle but lose half your forces, you can't hardly consider that winning "easily".

[Luckers]

Actually, Ituralde destroyed a force of 300,000

 

I'm drunk as a skunk, so i can't provide you with the ... you know. Thing. With evidence. Suffice to say Ituralde did not destroy a force of 300,000. He was reputed to have 300,000 himself, but it was a deception. There is specific numbers on the force Turan had--it's between 100,000 and 150,000... but as i said, too blury to find the quote. Ask me tomorrow. Or actually... maybe the day after.

[Never]

Actually, Ituralde destroyed a force of 300,000

 

I'm drunk as a skunk, so i can't provide you with the ... you know. Thing. With evidence. Suffice to say Ituralde did not destroy a force of 300,000. He was reputed to have 300,000 himself, but it was a deception. There is specific numbers on the force Turan had--it's between 100,000 and 150,000... but as i said, too blury to find the quote. Ask me tomorrow. Or actually... maybe the day after.

 

Iirc, Ituralde had about 100.000. I'd say Turan would have to have at least twice that.

[Entreri]

Actually, Ituralde destroyed a force of 300,000

 

I'm drunk as a skunk, so i can't provide you with the ... you know. Thing. With evidence. Suffice to say Ituralde did not destroy a force of 300,000. He was reputed to have 300,000 himself, but it was a deception. There is specific numbers on the force Turan had--it's between 100,000 and 150,000... but as i said, too blury to find the quote. Ask me tomorrow. Or actually... maybe the day after.

 

Page 113 of The Gathering Storm (hardcover version): "Perhaps they would remember the numbers; those often seems important to scribes. Half of Ituralde's hundred thousand, dead. On any other battlefield, fifty thousand causalities would have shamed and angered him. But he'd faced down a force three times his size, and one with damane at that".

 

Since he had 100,000 and faced a force three times his size...Time to crown Ituralde the Seanchan Killer.

 

Even a far greater victory than what Rand+Mat achieved thus far against the Seanchan.

[Suttree]

I see, he faced off against an army that was probably a million Shadowspawn all by himself (without angreal or sa'angreal) and defeated it, an army that would destroy all Randlander armies (except WH, due to 1000 AS). The smallest this Trolloc army could be is 1/2 million, given its description/abilities to take out Randlander armies.

 

Could you quote the descriptions you are using to come up with these estimates? The only time we have a number mentioned it say "tens of thousands" dead and "legions" running away. I just don't think a million shadowspawn force would be described in such a way.

[Kahsm]

I see, he faced off against an army that was probably a million Shadowspawn all by himself (without angreal or sa'angreal) and defeated it, an army that would destroy all Randlander armies (except WH, due to 1000 AS). The smallest this Trolloc army could be is 1/2 million, given its description/abilities to take out Randlander armies.

 

Could you quote the descriptions you are using to come up with these estimates? The only time we have a number mentioned it say "tens of thousands" dead and "legions" running away. I just don't think a million shadowspawn force would be described in such a way.

 

I don't think the numbers really matter. There were lots running from nearly a fixed spot. Some portion of those lots died, a greater portion ran away.

 

The numbers don't change the channeling really. The more there are, the more would be picked up by the same tempests and water spouts. It's impossible to know what number would be the one to overwhelm Rand. It's like the movie 300. Good position, good tactics, and numbers become almost irrelevant.