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Stuff Brandon says


Terez
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Egwene dreams of Min, springing a steel trap but somehow walking through it without so much as seeing it (ch37).

 

This refers to her reemergence in the White Tower leading to the toppling of Siuane Sanche and so forth.

 

I don't think I follow. I've just reached the bit about Siuan being deposed in my re-read. Min was out of the WT at the time buying blue silk that Laras had insisted would look good on her, and she meets Gawyn and hears about Siuan. I don't see anything there that constitutes a trap for Min. And her return didn't 'lead to' Siuan being toppled. In fact, at that point, we do n ot know the details of Elaida's charges against her.

Edited by FarShainMael
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Egwene dreams of Min, springing a steel trap but somehow walking through it without so much as seeing it (ch37).

 

This refers to her reemergence in the White Tower leading to the toppling of Siuane Sanche and so forth.

 

I don't think I follow. I've just reached the bit about Siuan being deposed in my re-read. Min was out of the WT at the time buying blue silk that Laras had insisted would look good on her, and she meets Gawyn and hears about Siuan. I don't see anything there that constitutes a trap for Min. And her return didn't 'lead to' Siuan being toppled. In fact, at that point, we do n ot know the details of Elaida's charges against her.

Her return did lead to Siuan's deposition; we know that Elaida thought Min important because she knew that Min and Rand were acquainted (Min was interrogated by Elaida before - in fact, I think that was Min's first POV). The 'Elmindreda' ruse probably helped convince the necessary people that Siuan was being deceptive and therefore was up to no good. It wasn't a trap for Min; she simply sprung the trap without realizing it (hence the strength of her visions as she entered the Tower).

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I'm with you for most of that, but I still read 'springing a trap but walking through it' as a trap for Min - though, of course, it might have been both Min and Siuan. I did think as I read it that this part was rather suggestive:

 

She did not really want another dress, but how could she refuse when Laras pressed a purse of silver into her hands and told her to use it for this silk the stout woman had seen; she claimed it was just the colour to set off 'Elmindreda's' complexion.

 

Sounds as thought Laras wanted Min out of the Tower; but if Laras knew there was going to be trouble, why not send Min out of Tar Valon altogether?

 

Anyway, sounds as this trap for Min isn't the CG. What about those other possibilities?

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I'm with you for most of that, but I still read 'springing a trap but walking through it' as a trap for Min - though, of course, it might have been both Min and Siuan.

 

Re-read TSR chapter 1, the bit that's from Elaida's POV -- that's the aforementioned springing of the trap. In so far as Min walks away from everything unscathed, well, she does. Her presence in the White Tower again doesn't fool Elaida like it does the others, and she begins connecting the dots which leads to Siuan being deposed, the White Tower splitting, all those Warders dying, the Black Ajah infiltrating the ranks of leadership and on and on. But in the case of Min, aside from some tough months on the road with Siuan, nothing ever happens to her. So in that sense, you should be reading 'springing a trap but walking through it' precisely as it's written -- Min sprung a trap but wasn't trapped herself. There is no double meaning.

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In one of Mat's chapters, TDR 30 'The First Toss', there's a Sea Folk named Raab that pleads with him to try to get his money back, and keeps in him in Tar Valon a little longer (so he ends up meeting with Thom). Raab wins a bunch from betting on Mat after he lost at first, but Mat wonders to himself what a Sea Folk sailor is doing so far away from the sea. Is this ever mentioned again?

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In one of Mat's chapters, TDR 30 'The First Toss', there's a Sea Folk named Raab that pleads with him to try to get his money back, and keeps in him in Tar Valon a little longer (so he ends up meeting with Thom). Raab wins a bunch from betting on Mat after he lost at first, but Mat wonders to himself what a Sea Folk sailor is doing so far away from the sea. Is this ever mentioned again?

Yeah, before too long it's clear they're looking for the Coramoor.

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I'm with you for most of that, but I still read 'springing a trap but walking through it' as a trap for Min - though, of course, it might have been both Min and Siuan.

 

Re-read TSR chapter 1, the bit that's from Elaida's POV -- that's the aforementioned springing of the trap. In so far as Min walks away from everything unscathed, well, she does. Her presence in the White Tower again doesn't fool Elaida like it does the others, and she begins connecting the dots which leads to Siuan being deposed, the White Tower splitting, all those Warders dying, the Black Ajah infiltrating the ranks of leadership and on and on. But in the case of Min, aside from some tough months on the road with Siuan, nothing ever happens to her. So in that sense, you should be reading 'springing a trap but walking through it' precisely as it's written -- Min sprung a trap but wasn't trapped herself. There is no double meaning.

 

I did re-read it, but I don't interpret it as a trap. Elaida was not waiting for her arrival; she wasn't even expecting it. What it did do was to rouse Elaidia's suspicions, about Siuan:

 

With an effort, she forced her thoughts back to waht was important now. Egwene and Nynaeve came from the same village as that strange young man, Rand al'Thor...

 

...Elaida had only seen him once, supposedly a shepherd from the Two Rivers, in Andor, but looking evey inch the Aielman. The Foretelling had come to her at the sight of him...

 

...There were more threads, enough to snare Siuan in her own web. If the rumours were to be believed, there were three ta'veren, not just one. All three from the same village, this Emond's Field, and all three near the same age..

 

...Whatever Siuan was up to, she had to be stopped. Turmoil and chaos mutiplied on every side... The Tower had to be free to pull the strings to make the nations stand together, free of the troubles Rand al'Thor would bring. Somehow, he had to be stopped from destroying Andor...

 

...Abruptly Elaida stopped, staring at nothing. Could it be that this Rand al'Thor could channel? Or one of the others? Most likely it would be al'Thor. No. Surely not. Not even Siuan would touch one of those. She could not. "Who knows what that woman could do?" she muttered. "She was never fit to be the Amyrlin Seat."

 

A trap has to exist for someone to spring it. This piece seems to show that no trap did exist when Min arrived, but Elaida did start to lay her plans to bring down Siuan at that point, which is not quite the same thing.

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It was Siuan who created the the trap in her actions reguarding Rand. She and Moiraine are quite open about the dangers of what they were doing--by concealing the existence of a man who can channel, even (or perhaps especially) the Dragon Reborn. Were it discovered they faced stilling--that doesn't mean they weren't right to do what they did, but still, there were dangers in it. Min, in her return, unintentionally exposed them, springing the trap that they had woven for themselves.

 

You may to some degree think of Elaida as the cage--although perhaps the spring that triggered the trap would be a more apt analogy.

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but for the rest.. That's a metaphor too far for me..

 

I don't see why--I mean it's all very simple. There was the looming threat of Siuan being stilled/deposed/executed due to her secret reguarding Rand. Min turning up at the Tower revealed that secret to Elaida, and as a result the axe that had been hanging above Siuan's head fell.

 

Trap, sprung by Min, without her seeing it.

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Alright, let's go out on a limb, my successful prediction ratio can take it.

 

Lan's ring was touched by a Myrdraal in ch 39, possibly early SH (the one that showed amusement but not the one that detected channeling).

 

Sure Ny has a sense things in objects talent and has been wearing it forever and a bunch of other reasons why it's stupid. But don't really feel like seeing if there's any other halls of mirrors references or whatever else I just write off as early bookism from ch 35 and I don't feel like making a huge Aludra related conspiracy theory.

 

Post from page 5 updated with the possibles I found (ignored things that have come up later to my knowledge, ymmv).

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No, I meant that your meaning isn't clear. So, something about the Fade having touched Lan's ring, I guess, but I can't figure out what (or how it relates to a Talent for reading ter'angreal - which BTW Nynaeve never displayed except with the Sad Bracelet IIRC - or halls of mirrors).

 

 

On a different note, Chekhov's Gun's still a gun. It has to be something we wouldn't dismiss as insignificant, but somehow never lived up to its potential until now. The luck thing works, and I guess Darkhounds haven't had a big impact on the story yet, though they certainly could've done more (like wipe Mat out, for example).

Edited by yoniy0
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No, I meant that your meaning isn't clear. So, something about the Fade having touched Lan's ring, I guess, but I can't figure out what (or how it relates to a Talent for reading ter'angreal - which BTW Nynaeve never displayed except with the Sad Bracelet IIRC - or halls of mirrors).

 

 

On a different note, Chekhov's Gun's still a gun. It has to be something we wouldn't dismiss as insignificant, but somehow never lived up to its potential until now. The luck thing works, and I guess Darkhounds haven't had a big impact on the story yet, though they certainly could've done more (like wipe Mat out, for example).

 

I have no notion of what he meant either but its true that Nynaeve can't read ter'angreals like Avi, she can only sense emotion from them.

Edited by Suttree
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