Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[dwn]

Given the example of Algiarin's manor, even a few channelers could make a huge difference.

There's no reason why say, 25-30 greens couldn't be posted in each of the Border Kingdoms.

ideally, along with other ajah in permanent embassies with rotating staff.

 

The attack on Algarin's manor was met by more than 30 channelers, including some of the strongest and most capable available. Nevertheless those 25-30 women could still be a formidable force--so long as they're in all in one place. Now pick 3-5 locations along that 3000 mile border that should get Aes Sedai scrutiny.

 

Now, I agree philosophically that the Green Ajah historically should have been doing more to prepare for and counter the shadowspawn threat, or that we should have been better shown what their concept of "to stand ready" actually involved. I also think they set themselves an impossible task and it's not really fair to chastise them for failing at it.

 

-- dwn

[AshaShan]

 

The attack on Algarin's manor was met by more than 30 channelers, including some of the strongest and most capable available. Nevertheless those 25-30 women could still be a formidable force--so long as they're in all in one place. Now pick 3-5 locations along that 3000 mile border that should get Aes Sedai scrutiny.

 

Now, I agree philosophically that the Green Ajah historically should have been doing more to prepare for and counter the shadowspawn threat, or that we should have been better shown what their concept of "to stand ready" actually involved. I also think they set themselves an impossible task and it's not really fair to chastise them for failing at it.

 

-- dwn

 

What's so impossible about stationing a dozen members of the grandly named Battle Ajah with each of the four Borderlander monarchs? They wouldn't have to patrol the Blight and kill every Shadowspawn ever born, but simply being available to march with the main army when the generals judge the threat sufficiant to mobilise would make a huge difference. I think it's perfectly fair to chastise them for doing... next to nothing while still flattering themselves as they do.

[randsc]

Look here is the thing, are there certain posters who will remain nameless that go overboard in their defense of Egwene and AS? Yes, undoubtedly. But something people need to take into account is that their posts are always reactionary.

 

 

This is manifestly untrue, as mere seconds using the search feature will demonstrate.

[Suttree]

Look here is the thing, are there certain posters who will remain nameless that go overboard in their defense of Egwene and AS? Yes, undoubtedly. But something people need to take into account is that their posts are always reactionary.

 

 

This is manifestly untrue, as mere seconds using the search feature will demonstrate.

 

Ok Randsc, please take a few mere seconds to provide us with all the posts out of the blue praising their brilliance(would you be more willing to agree with "most of the time are reactionary", as opposed to "always"?). Not made in response to some anti-AS rant...and no Elan doesn't count

 

If you can do so in a satisfactory manner I am more than willing to concede the point. I'm just going of what I see on these boards every day. When someone like me, who only counts one AS in their top 5 characters constantly feels the need to step in, you know its pretty bad.

[randsc]

Most would be much better that always. You can use the search yourself. Hell, you even know some of the (non-troll) names to look for. I suggest the search terms "Egwene Sedai" or, especially, "misogyny."

 

What I think you are missing is how much of the Egwene "hatred" is also reactionary. When I state that dislike Egwene, I can cite reasons from the text. My disliking her is not an attack on anyone else.

 

On the other hand, way too much of the defense of Egwene follows the pattern of, "If you don't like her, you don't understand her/are just too young/hates de womynz" In other words, it is personally insulting. If I don't like a character, assuming that I am an idiot, a kid, or a misogynist is insulting. Also stupid.

 

And I realize that I just insulted those people by calling them stupid. It was intentional.

[Kahsm]

Most would be much better that always. You can use the search yourself. Hell, you even know some of the (non-troll) names to look for. I suggest the search terms "Egwene Sedai" or, especially, "misogyny."

 

What I think you are missing is how much of the Egwene "hatred" is also reactionary. When I state that dislike Egwene, I can cite reasons from the text. My disliking her is not an attack on anyone else.

 

On the other hand, way too much of the defense of Egwene follows the pattern of, "If you don't like her, you don't understand her/are just too young/hates de womynz" In other words, it is personally insulting. If I don't like a character, assuming that I am an idiot, a kid, or a misogynist is insulting. Also stupid.

 

And I realize that I just insulted those people by calling them stupid. It was intentional.

 

I think what Suttree meant is that _I_ (if Elan doesn't count, who else would he mean, right?!) don't make posts out of the blue saying "I love Egwene, she's so awesome, you're retarded if you hate her!". _I_ simply get "defensive" over those who tend to highjack random threads or start posts geared to hating Egwene or Aes Sedai in general.

 

I'm not saying I agree, just that I think that's his insinuation. I don't think he was commenting on anyone's citing or lack of.

 

Oh yeah, and I love how "hates the woman" has come up again. I don't think I've seen a single instance of that in months, except from YOU claiming people say that. I mean let it go. Maybe ages ago someone said that to you, maybe you frequent a different WOT site, but it's just not true anymore.

[dwn]

 

The attack on Algarin's manor was met by more than 30 channelers, including some of the strongest and most capable available. Nevertheless those 25-30 women could still be a formidable force--so long as they're in all in one place. Now pick 3-5 locations along that 3000 mile border that should get Aes Sedai scrutiny.

 

Now, I agree philosophically that the Green Ajah historically should have been doing more to prepare for and counter the shadowspawn threat, or that we should have been better shown what their concept of "to stand ready" actually involved. I also think they set themselves an impossible task and it's not really fair to chastise them for failing at it.

 

-- dwn

 

What's so impossible about stationing a dozen members of the grandly named Battle Ajah with each of the four Borderlander monarchs? They wouldn't have to patrol the Blight and kill every Shadowspawn ever born, but simply being available to march with the main army when the generals judge the threat sufficiant to mobilise would make a huge difference. I think it's perfectly fair to chastise them for doing... next to nothing while still flattering themselves as they do.

 

The Aes Sedai do seem to have a stronger presence in the borderlands than in other nations. We see quite a few in Kandor in New Spring. We see that a number have attached themselves to the borderland monarchs--temporarily or not, they must have been in a position to do so. We also see that Aes Sedai are respected in the borderlands more so than in the south, which implies a greater familiarity.

 

I think the whole "what has the Tower been doing to help the world?" question comes about because we've only been given snippets of what an Aes Sedai typically does with her life. Our whole experience with the Tower is through the lens of a crisis--which, granted, they have not handled well.

 

-- dwn

[Suttree]

 

The attack on Algarin's manor was met by more than 30 channelers, including some of the strongest and most capable available. Nevertheless those 25-30 women could still be a formidable force--so long as they're in all in one place. Now pick 3-5 locations along that 3000 mile border that should get Aes Sedai scrutiny.

 

Now, I agree philosophically that the Green Ajah historically should have been doing more to prepare for and counter the shadowspawn threat, or that we should have been better shown what their concept of "to stand ready" actually involved. I also think they set themselves an impossible task and it's not really fair to chastise them for failing at it.

 

-- dwn

 

What's so impossible about stationing a dozen members of the grandly named Battle Ajah with each of the four Borderlander monarchs? They wouldn't have to patrol the Blight and kill every Shadowspawn ever born, but simply being available to march with the main army when the generals judge the threat sufficiant to mobilise would make a huge difference. I think it's perfectly fair to chastise them for doing... next to nothing while still flattering themselves as they do.

 

The Aes Sedai do seem to have a stronger presence in the borderlands than in other nations. We see quite a few in Kandor in New Spring. We see that a number have attached themselves to the borderland monarchs--temporarily or not, they must have been in a position to do so. We also see that Aes Sedai are respected in the borderlands more so than in the south, which implies a greater familiarity.

 

I think the whole "what has the Tower been doing to help the world?" question comes about because we've only been given snippets of what an Aes Sedai typically does with her life. Our whole experience with the Tower is through the lens of a crisis--which, granted, they have not handled well.

 

-- dwn

 

Agreed, I am sure the AS advisors to the Borderland nations have far different duties than the ones say in Mayene. Then there are sisters like Kiruna, granted her brother is King Paitar but she can't be the only Green outside of those permanently station in the BLs that do work in the area.

 

I would again like to point out that every sisters room we see in the WT has items gained from a long life spent adventuring outside the WT. When people claim they are sequestered in their Tower doing nothing it is plainly false.

 

Do like the idea of having manned rally points, or else roving ones checking occasionally with the border towers & defenses. Now that travelling has been found again that would be a much more realistic option than it has in the past.

[damandred]

Where were the green Ajah in EoTW when the Shienarans were facing the Trolloc's at Tarwins Gap. Surely that is the exact senario that the Greens are meant to stand ready for. That is the reason for their being isn't it?

Agelmar reckons Moirains worth as a thousand lancers, what would a dozon of the fabled battle Ajah have been worth?

Looking forward to hearing some of the exuses that will get made for them. Maybe Myrelle was marrying a Warder that day and they all attended the wedding?

[Pinzarn]

(I must be crazy to even consider posting in this thread, but...)

 

Regarding the Greens' lack of attention to the blight border, please note said border is about 3000 miles long, going by the map in the guide. There are roughly 1000 Aes Sedai, so perhaps 200 in the Green Ajah, with some needed in the Tower for administration and teaching. That is a very long border to watch with such few numbers.

 

-- dwn

 

With the descriptions given of the border, I have always pictured it as impassable with "mountain passes" here and there. The descriptions also led me to believe that most of the Borderland countries have various forts and such at these passes. I think using various Aes Sedai to help protect these locations would have been simple, but then again, the White Tower doesn't do simple.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Where were the green Ajah in EoTW when the Shienarans were facing the Trolloc's at Tarwins Gap. Surely that is the exact senario that the Greens are meant to stand ready for. That is the reason for their being isn't it?

Agelmar reckons Moirains worth as a thousand lancers, what would a dozon of the fabled battle Ajah have been worth?

Looking forward to hearing some of the exuses that will get made for them. Maybe Myrelle was marrying a Warder that day and they all attended the wedding?

 

 

Thing is, in that circumstance, we're not privy to any indication that Agelmar send any word for aid to anyone, let alone Tar Valon. We only see Shienarans, and the only indication with regard to Aes Sedai is when Agelmar comments to Moiraine's worth - Yet there's no mention concerning asking for help, sending word to other nations, to anyone outside his own realm.

 

It's kind of a crap shoot. At that point anyone's ability to travel is as limited. We know it still takes a sizable amount of time to go one way from TV to Fal Dara for instance, even with manipulating river flow. So let's say you send your prime pidgeon to TV for example. Let's say it's a pidgeon on steroids who never sleeps, a real stud. Makes the flight in three days.

 

Best possible circumstance, reasonable group assembles and leaves within two days, assuming said stud-bird arrived in the morning. Given it'd be at least two weeks to get ye ole powerslingers back up north...Should be there right about time to say 'hey, how'd it go?'

 

It's not an excuse, but considering it's not even for a second mentioned that Agelmar reached out to anyone beyond his own country...Cry me a river

[SuperFade]

The point about travel times is a good one, but if the White Tower had had a dozen sisters on standby in the various Borderland nations capitals the travel times would not be as much of an issue. There really is no excuse why the Battle Ajah aren't regularly stationed near border forts, accompanying patrols along the Blightborder, and generally maintaining a constant and coherent presence near the blight.

[damandred]

Where were the green Ajah in EoTW when the Shienarans were facing the Trolloc's at Tarwins Gap. Surely that is the exact senario that the Greens are meant to stand ready for. That is the reason for their being isn't it?

Agelmar reckons Moirains worth as a thousand lancers, what would a dozon of the fabled battle Ajah have been worth?

Looking forward to hearing some of the exuses that will get made for them. Maybe Myrelle was marrying a Warder that day and they all attended the wedding?

 

 

Thing is, in that circumstance, we're not privy to any indication that Agelmar send any word for aid to anyone, let alone Tar Valon. We only see Shienarans, and the only indication with regard to Aes Sedai is when Agelmar comments to Moiraine's worth - Yet there's no mention concerning asking for help, sending word to other nations, to anyone outside his own realm.

 

It's kind of a crap shoot. At that point anyone's ability to travel is as limited. We know it still takes a sizable amount of time to go one way from TV to Fal Dara for instance, even with manipulating river flow. So let's say you send your prime pidgeon to TV for example. Let's say it's a pidgeon on steroids who never sleeps, a real stud. Makes the flight in three days.

 

Best possible circumstance, reasonable group assembles and leaves within two days, assuming said stud-bird arrived in the morning. Given it'd be at least two weeks to get ye ole powerslingers back up north...Should be there right about time to say 'hey, how'd it go?'

 

It's not an excuse, but considering it's not even for a second mentioned that Agelmar reached out to anyone beyond his own country...Cry me a river

 

 

 

I think your missing the point which is there should be Green Ajah "standing ready" with all the borderland nations, ready for the exact senario that happened in EoTW.

If their mandate is to fight shadowspawn, they are not going to do much of that sitting in TV waiting for a pidgeon.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I think people get caught up in wanting Aes Sedai to be all things, at all times, to everyone, everywhere, to the exact letter of a catchphrase, or old tongue interpretation of a title.

 

Hold's itself ready for Tarmon Gai'don, but they weren't at my place, for my battle, and I didn't let anyone know or ask for help - So it's their fault for not being there.

 

Servant of All, except I broke my leg and they aren't where I need them to be, to help me, in my hour of need...This is their fault, clearly.

 

The power's out, and my microwave won't work...But I want my popcorn nnooowww *stamps foot.

 

 

[David Selig]

Where were the green Ajah in EoTW when the Shienarans were facing the Trolloc's at Tarwins Gap. Surely that is the exact senario that the Greens are meant to stand ready for. That is the reason for their being isn't it?

Agelmar reckons Moirains worth as a thousand lancers, what would a dozon of the fabled battle Ajah have been worth?

Looking forward to hearing some of the exuses that will get made for them. Maybe Myrelle was marrying a Warder that day and they all attended the wedding?

 

 

Thing is, in that circumstance, we're not privy to any indication that Agelmar send any word for aid to anyone, let alone Tar Valon. We only see Shienarans, and the only indication with regard to Aes Sedai is when Agelmar comments to Moiraine's worth - Yet there's no mention concerning asking for help, sending word to other nations, to anyone outside his own realm.

 

It's kind of a crap shoot. At that point anyone's ability to travel is as limited. We know it still takes a sizable amount of time to go one way from TV to Fal Dara for instance, even with manipulating river flow. So let's say you send your prime pidgeon to TV for example. Let's say it's a pidgeon on steroids who never sleeps, a real stud. Makes the flight in three days.

 

Best possible circumstance, reasonable group assembles and leaves within two days, assuming said stud-bird arrived in the morning. Given it'd be at least two weeks to get ye ole powerslingers back up north...Should be there right about time to say 'hey, how'd it go?'

 

It's not an excuse, but considering it's not even for a second mentioned that Agelmar reached out to anyone beyond his own country...Cry me a river

Agelmar mentioned that there had been massive Trollocs raids (more fierce than anything The Borderlands have seen since the Trolloc wars) for months before Moiraine and the Two Rivers crew arrived at Fal Dara. Surely the Aes Sedai were aware of that for months yet sent no help. And he was obviously desperate for help, so to think he send no word asking for support from the White Tower, which have been an ally of Shienar since its creation, doesn't make much sense.

[damandred]

Still missing the point. This debate is about the so called battle Ajah doing jack in the series. I have listed my reasons in various posts through out this thread and am not going to repeat myself.

I was responding at first to a post that suggested that, that the Green would be more help fighting shadowspawn if they had a presence in the borderland nations.

That is after all what their supose to do isn't it? I think the battle for Tarwins Gap is a valid point in that debate. And by the way if the greens, who are meant to fight shadowspawn were stationed in the nations were there is shadowspawn maybe Malkier would still be around.

[Feral]

Doesn't Lan in NS think something along the lines of AS not being an uncommon sight in the Borderland cities? And I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere that there's usually a couple of Aes Sedai in most major cities. Which would just make their absence from Malkier and Tarwin's Gap even more strange I guess.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Malkier might still be around if the Kings brother hadn't been swindled to strip that nations forces & charge off into the blight, by his darkfriend wife, along with her chummy coup happy darkfriend pal Gemallen trying to usurp the throne.

 

Malkier, not the fault of Aes Sedai, green ajah or otherwise.

 

Much like Borderlords leading their forces south to confront Rand. Abandoning their position & self-sworn duties. It's not the Aes Sedai's fault if their countries are overrun as a result.

 

It also doesn't make much sense to be so desperate for help, and have no evidence to suggest that anyone else was approached for aid, as evidenced by the only forces being present at the Gap, in that instance, being from one nation. No Kandori, pas des Arafel, didn't see any folks from Saldaea. How're you gonna be all wah wah why weren't the Aes Sedai there, when there wasn't even anyone their from Shienar's closest, tightest allies, right on down the neighborly road.

 

If you want to go that the Aes Sedai must have known for months, than under that same assumption you would have to say that the other Borderlands were also aware, and also, sent no help.

 

Why also then did Shienar not ride to help Malkier, their neighbor next door to the north. We know that WT forces were on the way with a full circle, and they couldn't make it in time. They're a significant distance away.

 

There's no mention any other nation did a damn thing to help Malkier.

 

 

Gaahh, you know what let's just blame the Aes Sedai. It's easier that way.

[David Selig]

The other Borderlanders knew what was going in Shienar, but they couldn't send help, because they were also raided for months before the Tarwin's Gap battle in EOTW and each of them expected the main Trolloc push to be at them. Cme to think of it, maybe the Amyrlin and the Hall thought the main attack would'be in Arafel or Saldaea, and sent help there, but I don't recall that mentioned. Siuan and her group came to Fal Dara in TGH from Tar Valon, not from the Borderlands, and she didn't mention aything about Aes Sedai being sent to the Borderlands earlier.

[damandred]

Are you being delibrately obtuse?

I'm not trying to blame all Randlands evils on the AS, all I am saying )once again) is that the green should have at least a couple of sisters on call and avalable to all borderland rulers in case of large scale attacks by shadowspawn. I don't think that's unreasonable considering they are the battle ajah.

And if memory serves Shienar got no help of the other borderlanders because they all feared attack, thinking the attack on the Gap was a fein. And the AS wouldn't of been too late to save Malkier if they where already there "standing ready".

Let me assure you that I'm not just AS bashing for the sake of it. I just think that for a Ajah that prides its self on fighting shadowspawn, it strange that their never around when you need them.

[Mats Spare Hat]

D. Selig: True, true.

 

Thing is we see so very little of what every single Aes Sedai has ever done, is doing, will do...anywhere over the course of the entire history of WoT. To me it feels like some people would take this as one of those 'because we don't see or hear of... ...whatever, than it means the AS aren't doing what they're supposed to'

 

Sort of a lack of evidence being proof of guilt; Because we don't actually see or account for, read about, the goings on & deeds of every single Aes Sedai, regardless of Ajah, throughout Randland or even the world, it's enough to, and also easy enough to, damn them for whatever reason strikes your fancy.

[damandred]

D. Selig: True, true.

 

Thing is we see so very little of what every single Aes Sedai has ever done, is doing, will do...anywhere over the course of the entire history of WoT. To me it feels like some people would take this as one of those 'because we don't see or hear of... ...whatever, than it means the AS aren't doing what they're supposed to'

 

Sort of a lack of evidence being proof of guilt; Because we don't actually see or account for, read about, the goings on & deeds of every single Aes Sedai, regardless of Ajah, throughout Randland or even the world, it's enough to, and also easy enough to, damn them for whatever reason strikes your fancy.

 

 

 

 

Maybe you should read some posts up thread to where the debate began on the ineffectiveness of the Green Ajah. I'm not talking about what they've done in the past but that since it became known that the dragon was reborn and TG was nigh the greens(and I choose them because of their creed) have done nothing to rally the forces of the light or prepare for the last battle in anyway.

I repeat I'm not a AS hater but I just cannot understand when people defend them, even when it is bleeding obvious they have made mistakes.

[Mats Spare Hat]

You chose to use the Green, because of their creed. Then bring in 'rallying the forces of light and preparing for the last battle'

 

Their creed, of which you refer to I assume is that of 'to hold themselves ready for Tarmon Gai'den' & 'To stand ready'. You tell me where in that creed it's stated they're about rallying the forces of light, as it relates explicitly to the time-frame set by yourself.

 

*checks calendar.

 

Oh hey, Tarmon Gai'den's not due until the last book comes out. Looks like in that less than year and half since it was revealed over Falme that Rand is, who he is, the definitive moment surrounding whether or not an Ajah's purpose is fulfilled - holding ready for the last battle, has yet to happen - And, that's completely ignoring the massive internal division, as well as significant undercurrents of black ajah action dicking all sorts of people over in the meantime.

 

I'll bet you a dollar they'll be right there, ready to stand & nuke it out when the plot point actually occurs.

[damandred]

You chose to use the Green, because of their creed. Then bring in 'rallying the forces of light and preparing for the last battle'

 

Their creed, of which you refer to I assume is that of 'to hold themselves ready for Tarmon Gai'den' & 'To stand ready'. You tell me where in that creed it's stated they're about rallying the forces of light, as it relates explicitly to the time-frame set by yourself.

 

*checks calendar.

 

Oh hey, Tarmon Gai'den's not due until the last book comes out. Looks like in that less than year and half since it was revealed over Falme that Rand is, who he is, the definitive moment surrounding whether or not an Ajah's purpose is fulfilled - holding ready for the last battle, has yet to happen - And, that's completely ignoring the massive internal division, as well as significant undercurrents of black ajah action dicking all sorts of people over in the meantime.

 

I'll bet you a dollar they'll be right there, ready to stand & nuke it out when the plot point actually occurs.

 

 

 

They will be ready come the end, but then everyone will be ready at the end! No? Isn't that the point of all the preceading books? Building up to the LB? So in the end the mighty battle Ajah is just going to stand in the ranks with everyone else.

The point I have been trying and trying to get through to you is what's so special about them? What makes them the battle Ajah. As far as iv seen of them in battles they just lob fire balls like every other AS, no killer battle weaves, no brilliant tactics. They've known the LB was due for a year and a half but they've not drawn up any battle plans or tactic to defend the free world and hold back the trolloc horde.

And I mention their creed because it is to my mind to stand ready for the LB and to be leaders in the fight against the shadow. I haven't seen them lead any fight against the shadow. Can you give me one example were the green has done more than any other Ajah in there fight with the shadow. The last battle might not of happened yet but the war started when the dragon proclamed himself. So according to you the Battle Ajah should play no special roll in the war, just fight in the LB which every other AS who walks in the light will be doing anyway.

Through out the series we've seen every other Ajah doing or seeming to do their jobs. Why do the Green deserve the title battle Ajah iv seen no evidence that there any more skilled in battle than any other AS?

[Suttree]

I repeat I'm not a AS hater but I just cannot understand when people defend them, even when it is bleeding obvious they have made mistakes.

 

Really? I'm sure though you can see how people might think the opposite when you call the Greens out as the "whore ajah" and falsely lame the blame for Malkier at their feet.

 

And by the way if the greens, who are meant to fight shadowspawn were stationed in the nations were there is shadowspawn maybe Malkier would still be around.

 

What would a any realistic station of Greens(on top of what we know they already have) do against a secret DF coup from within the royal family and a massive Trolloc invasion? Travelling wasn't invented yet, they could not have gotten help in time. I challenge you to find one post were someone claims they haven't made any mistakes because they have, but Malkier clearly was not one of them.

 

Agelmar mentioned that there had been massive Trollocs raids (more fierce than anything The Borderlands have seen since the Trolloc wars) for months before Moiraine and the Two Rivers crew arrived at Fal Dara. Surely the Aes Sedai were aware of that for months yet sent no help. And he was obviously desperate for help, so to think he send no word asking for support from the White Tower, which have been an ally of Shienar since its creation, doesn't make much sense.

 

Think this more than anything can just be chalked up to an early bookism. What you say say is true, but on the flipside, if he had been requesting help from TV and it had gone unanswered, someone would have commented on it to Moiriane. Even more so the Amrylin's would not have been received with such honors and zero mention of a refusal to send aid.