Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

Hiring friends/thugs with independent thought and Egwene creating this "dream vision" aren't even remotely similar. Yes dreams get out of control in Tar but not when one person is actively creating the illusion. Don't think we have ever seen one of those get away from the person creating them and they can always make them vanish with a thought. So there is zero comparison between the two.

 

Again, shiny semantics. The analogy doesn't break down because your friends might, hypothetically get out of control. The key to the comparison is that Egwene was covering her wrong doing and the lesson was unintended.

 

For the second part instead of committing adultery or having some other immoral intention Egwene is attempting to quickly learn skills that will help her fight the Shadow. What she did wasn't right but comparing the two scenarios is rather silly.

 

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.

 

I agree with that last bit. While Egwene obviously fights the Shadow, she is also very interested in advancing herself. If the two overlap then all the better, but while there may been some motivation to learn Dreaming in order to fight the Shadow, I think her motivation was mostly just to become the best at Dreaming, to better herself. And there's nothing wrong with that of course, but it can hardly be called noble.

[Elan Tedronai]

holy molly, are we still waffling about what happened in FOH?

 

Does it really matter what egwene has done months ago to nynaeve even if it was a bitch move? it's no different to nynave refusing to obey egwene's orders or not acknowledging her as her superior. Or going off on another worthless tirade against moraine in the earlier books. or being an absolute pain in the arse for mat.

 

 

people let's hear some new debates please. this whole shit is getting boring now

[Hopefire]

For the second part instead of committing adultery or having some other immoral intention Egwene is attempting to quickly learn skills that will help her fight the Shadow. What she did wasn't right but comparing the two scenarios is rather silly.

 

Granted, Egwene's overall goal (to learn more about TAR) is good, but her methodology in ensuring she can continue is not. The best possible solution would be for Egwene to acknowledge that she's going behind the Wise Ones backs, and offer to teach Nynaeve what she knows as she learns it, and to be able to practice with her. Instead, she chose to assault her friend in a way that could have backfired spectacularly.

 

Egwene might not have been able to control the dream as well as she thought she could. Nynaeve might have been able to handle it on her own and figured out what Egwene was doing, and subsequently reported Egwene to the Wise Ones. And worst of all, it might have worked - had it worked, scaring Nynaeve off with regards to TAR, Moghedien would have been loose in Salidar, and Rand would have been in serious difficulty against Rhavin. As things turned out, things turned out for the best from Egwene's perspective. That doesn't mean that it was the best way to achieve that goal, it doesn't mean she was morally right in her goal or how she went about achieving it.

[MasterAblar]

holy molly, are we still waffling about what happened in FOH?

 

Does it really matter what egwene has done months ago to nynaeve even if it was a bitch move? it's no different to nynave refusing to obey egwene's orders or not acknowledging her as her superior. Or going off on another worthless tirade against moraine in the earlier books. or being an absolute pain in the arse for mat.

 

 

people let's hear some new debates please. this whole shit is getting boring now

 

Well, while I don't see how any of your examples are similar to what Egwene did, I have to agree that all the arguments about Egwene are getting a little old. Then again, this IS the thread for it.

[Hopefire]

holy molly, are we still waffling about what happened in FOH?

 

Does it really matter what egwene has done months ago to nynaeve even if it was a bitch move? it's no different to nynave refusing to obey egwene's orders or not acknowledging her as her superior. Or going off on another worthless tirade against moraine in the earlier books. or being an absolute pain in the arse for mat.

 

 

people let's hear some new debates please. this whole shit is getting boring now

Well, I did try to sidetrack the thread a while back, with regards to Nynaeve in TOM realizing she didn't need the White Tower. Let me flesh that out a little.

 

What happens if a significant number of the best and brightest of the White Tower decide that they don't need the White Tower?

 

We have Nynaeve realizing in TOM that she doesn't need the White Tower, and that she'll put her own goals and desires ahead of the White Tower. For Nynaeve, that means helping Rand at the Last Battle and doing whatever she can to protect Lan and stand at his side. But she's returned to the Tower and has acknowledged Egwene as the Amyrlin. What about the other Aes Sedai, that have either been unwillingly tied to the Black Tower or who have willingly (mostly) been tied to Rand?

 

Cadsuane is potentially the biggest fly in the ointment. But there are others: Sarene, Alanna, Corele, Rafela, Bera, Merise, Sashalle and so many others. And what about those Aes Sedai bonded to Asha'man? Some of the will no doubt be grateful to leave the Black Tower and return to the White, and do everything that they can to forget about what happened. But not all of them. In the little glimpses we've seen of the bonded Aes Sedai, we sometimes see moments of warmth and affection. And some smugness from the men, but that's not necessarily related.

 

I recall at some point (no citation available at the moment) that someone guessed that as many as a third of the Aes Sedai had not chosen a side after the Tower broke. While some have no doubt come back, and some are Black Ajah, there still may be well over a hundred non-Black Ajah Aes Sedai not currently following the White Tower's lead. No doubt, some will come back. Most may come back.

 

But some might not.

 

What happens to them? Do the Hall and Egwene just allow up to a few hundred Aes Sedai to step down and go in one fell swoop? If they decide to teach young women in an apprenticeship setting similar to that of the Wise Ones, what does Egwene do? Do the ones that return form the basis of an unofficial (at least at first) political party in the Tower, advocating greater non-political involvement in the world? If Aes Sedai left to join the Black Tower, and it formally opened itself up to teaching men and women both, what could or would Egwene do?

[MasterAblar]

I don't see Aes Sedai giving up the title. It's sort of a big thing to be an AS. On the other hand it is possible that women might not want to join the WT. But then, where else are they going to go?

[Rose]

This tendency seems logical. It is the end of an Age, after all. Everybody, Egwene included, realizes that things are changing. And though she still hopes to unite all the channellers around the White Tower (if not under it), she acknowledges that the Aes Sedai will be destroyed if they put all their energy into clinging to the past. My personal feeling is that the world will be very different after Tarmon Gaidon. The sheer aftershock of such a traumatizing event will shake Randland to its core. All the channellers will have had to fight alongside each other against the Shadow. Old associations, societies and alliances will shatter. Some parts of the world will be completely destroyed. They will simply not be able to return to the way things were. It will make no sense at all. Everything will be different after Tarmon Gaidon, and many of these issues will probably not be relevant anymore. As for before TG, I doubt there is enough time to see any of this happen.

[Hopefire]

I don't see Aes Sedai giving up the title. It's sort of a big thing to be an AS. On the other hand it is possible that women might not want to join the WT. But then, where else are they going to go?

 

A master/apprentice system for women who could channel could occur, with the Aes Sedai that stayed independent evolving a system similar to that of the Wise Ones. In which case, they'd be women who can channel, but would not have any title in particular. Or, enough women might stay associated with the Black Tower that women might start becoming Asha'man.

 

Also, those who might leave the Tower might not want to give up the title that they feel they've earned, but the Tower might take great exception to them using the title without acknowledging the authority of the Tower. More potential issues down the road! That we'll unfortunately probably not get to see, but which could be damn interesting.

[Suttree]

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.

 

I wasn't commenting on the "lesson" itself. Egwene was obvs wrong. To say she is learning Tar and being Amrylin without having the ultimate goal of fighting the shadow in mind isn't fair. Are you implying that she is only working for power and not the greater good? She may be misguided in how she goes about it, but those are her intentions. While she always tries to be the best, we have seen a good deal of her inner thoughts showing how important it is for AS to change with the times and be ready for TG. Most of her meetings and what she is working for in Tar have that ultimate goal in mind. She trained in Tar gaining skills that helped her defeat a forsaken. Hence learning to fight the shadow.

[MasterAblar]

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.

 

I wasn't commenting on the "lesson" itself. Egwene was obvs wrong. To say she is learning Tar and being Amrylin without having the ultimate goal of fighting the shadow in mind isn't fair. Are you implying that she is only working for power and not the greater good? She may be misguided in how she goes about it, but those are her intentions. Most of her meetings and what she is working for in Tar have that ultimate goal in mind. She trained in Tar gaining skills that helped her defeat a forsaken. Hence learning to fight the shadow.

 

I think she is working for both. Dreaming seems to have been a more of a personal thing though, in my opinion.

[Himiko]

What happens if a significant number of the best and brightest of the White Tower decide that they don't need the White Tower?

 

We have Nynaeve realizing in TOM that she doesn't need the White Tower, and that she'll put her own goals and desires ahead of the White Tower. For Nynaeve, that means helping Rand at the Last Battle and doing whatever she can to protect Lan and stand at his side. But she's returned to the Tower and has acknowledged Egwene as the Amyrlin. What about the other Aes Sedai, that have either been unwillingly tied to the Black Tower or who have willingly (mostly) been tied to Rand?

 

Cadsuane is potentially the biggest fly in the ointment. But there are others: Sarene, Alanna, Corele, Rafela, Bera, Merise, Sashalle and so many others. And what about those Aes Sedai bonded to Asha'man? Some of the will no doubt be grateful to leave the Black Tower and return to the White, and do everything that they can to forget about what happened. But not all of them. In the little glimpses we've seen of the bonded Aes Sedai, we sometimes see moments of warmth and affection. And some smugness from the men, but that's not necessarily related.

 

I recall at some point (no citation available at the moment) that someone guessed that as many as a third of the Aes Sedai had not chosen a side after the Tower broke. While some have no doubt come back, and some are Black Ajah, there still may be well over a hundred non-Black Ajah Aes Sedai not currently following the White Tower's lead. No doubt, some will come back. Most may come back.

 

But some might not.

 

What happens to them? Do the Hall and Egwene just allow up to a few hundred Aes Sedai to step down and go in one fell swoop? If they decide to teach young women in an apprenticeship setting similar to that of the Wise Ones, what does Egwene do? Do the ones that return form the basis of an unofficial (at least at first) political party in the Tower, advocating greater non-political involvement in the world? If Aes Sedai left to join the Black Tower, and it formally opened itself up to teaching men and women both, what could or would Egwene do?

 

Interesting question. I think what we've seen is Nynaeve not so much deciding she doesn't need the WT, as being part of their organisation, and following their rules and power structure (we see her officially acknowledge Egwene as Amyrlin, and she agrees to take the test for the shawl, etc.), whilst at the same time, acknowledging that, if at some point in the future she has to choose between following the WT, and doing what she believes is right, then she won't hesitate in following her own judgement. She's not the only example of this, I think- we've already seen Moiraine and Siuan do much the same (hiding their activities from the WT, even though they knew they'd be punished for it, because it was the right thing to do), and I wouldn't be surprised if Cadsuane and her followers, or some of the bound AS, or some that are/ have been attached to various armies (Teslyn, etc.) may well come to the same realisation in this last book. That's not to say that they will need to- theoretically, after all, they are all aiming for the same goal of defeating the DO. But they may well disagree on methods, and we have seen several AS coming to realise that their organisation, and they themselves, do not always know best, and may well be more willing to listen to, and side with others, than just simply following the WT. For example: We know that Nynaeve plans to go to SG with Rand. I imagine that Teslyn will have a good deal of respect for Mat's viewpoint, etc. That's very different from saying "Screw you!" to the WT as a whole, though. That's saying "I'll be part of you, but if it comes down to you telling me to do something that I don't think is the right thing to do, then I'm not just going to agree with you automatically." Which I don't think is a bad thing at all.

 

I think the WT, and AS as a whole are likely to lose some influence in the world, as new channelling groups are springing up. The exchange program with WOs and Windfinders may counter some of this, that remains to be seen. But as a whole: other cultures no longer have to hide away their own channelers for fear the Aes Sedai will try and take them away to the WT (some might argue over the exchange program students, which might be a sticking point, but again, we will see). The Kin have also come out into the open, and whilst they might be tied to the WT, I can see some women choosing to train to Accepted level, and leave for the Kin, rather than become AS. Whether the AS and Asha'man become two parts of the same organisation, or whether they remain separate, and (possibly) accept opposite gender members, female channelers will no longer be seen as the ultimate authority. So, yes, I do think we will see some powerful and/or skilled female channelers choosing not to be part of the WT. I can see many joining the AS but without seeing them as the kind of all powerful institution that they are perhaps seen as now (they have, after all, just recovered from a massive split and been raided by the Seanchan- even if they keep the number of Black Ajah quiet, people are bound to notice those two events). As for people joining but putting their own judgement before the Tower, I think that's always been the case for some sisters, Nynaeve's just an obvious recent example.

 

On a slightly different note, I was kind of disappointed Nynaeve didn't literally decide she didn't need the WT. More for her character arc than anything else. The whole series we've seen Nynaeve struggling for acceptance from people- when we first meet her, she is an extraordinary Wisdom, but one who is frequently criticised simply for being "too young", an argument which we see brought up again with the Kin. Several in the WT look down on her because she is a wilder, despite her potential. Later, despite her impressive discoveries, her actions in healing stilling, helping cleanse the taint, and being the sole AS representative that the DR would have anything to do with for a while, other AS consistently look down on her because of the manner of her raising. She is an excellent Wisdom, a powerful channeler and an uncommonly skilled healer, but she does seem to crave recognition and resents it heavily when she is not given it. This testing and its aftermath would have been a good oppurtunity for her to realise, and state, that she has spent the last year proving herself as an AS, more so than most of those testing her, I'd wager. She passed the test, with all of them trying to make sure she failed, and she did it in her own way. She proved that she was more than worthy of the shawl, and rather than having this group of women who'd just treated her like crap telling her that she'd passed "narrowly", and she lacked the "proper AS calm", tell them that if that's how they want their organisation to behave then they're not worthy of her :P

 

I mean, I understand why they didn't do that- Egwene would have lost an ally and the WT would have lost a powerful channeler, and RJ/BS are unlikely to let this happen. But still, it would have been a nice "end" for that aspect of Nynaeve's character growth. OK, so kind of off topic, but against my better wishes, Nynaeve IS AS, so I guess its not too OT.

[Elan Tedronai]

the status quo will no longer be maintained.

 

once the final battle is finished, the men and women will have no choice but to live under one roof as channellers. once there was a reason for the divide. now it's no longer there. and the greatest discoveries of the power lay in both saidin and saidar being woven together.

 

the white tower and black tower in their current form will be finished. a new paran disen will be formed in a distant future. you can count on the black tower being shred apart in amol prologue for sure

[capuga]

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.

 

I wasn't commenting on the "lesson" itself. Egwene was obvs wrong. To say she is learning Tar and being Amrylin without having the ultimate goal of fighting the shadow in mind isn't fair. Are you implying that she is only working for power and not the greater good? She may be misguided in how she goes about it, but those are her intentions. While she always tries to be the best, we have seen a good deal of her inner thoughts showing how important it is for AS to change with the times and be ready for TG. Most of her meetings and what she is working for in Tar have that ultimate goal in mind. She trained in Tar gaining skills that helped her defeat a forsaken. Hence learning to fight the shadow.

 

In this case I would say that she is working for knowledge (rather than power) and not (necessarily) the greater good. Let's say I diet and exercise because it gives me energy, helps me look good, and maintain my health. I later get into a fight and win because I am strong and in great shape. So my exercise helped me in the fight but I wasn't training specifically to fight that person.

 

Again, I'm not really knocking Egwene here (at least for this particular thing). Her personality is that she wants to learn everything possible. She wants to know everything and be great at channeling. She wants to learn everything and be great in TAR. She wants to be a great politician. She would want to do this even if they weren't on the verge of the Last Battle. For the previous 1000 years the skills she wants to learn would have only been used moderately to fight the Shadow. Have the Aiel dreamwalkers been spending all their time fighting the Shadow? Have the Aes Sedai done much Shadow fighting since the end of the Trolloc Wars?

 

The skills she wants to learn will be helpful in the fight against the Shadow but, again, that's not her motivation and it seems generous to imply that is her end goal. She learns because she likes to learn. Nothing wrong with that. She will use the skills she learns to fight the Shadow, which is good. But her desire to learn (and, thus, actions like going behind the Wise Ones back) would still be there without the Shadow. So to imply that that is a major motivator for her seems a bit generous to me.

[Suttree]

And again this skirts the point of the analogy. The analogy's point isn't to compare how moral or immoral the wrong doing is. It's point is to show that the action was undertaken to distract from her wrong doing, not to do something beneficial to the other person.

 

She had no intention of teaching Nynaeve a lesson. It was nothing more than a distraction. If it happened to have some beneficial side-effect she doesn't get any credit for that because she wasn't trying to help Nynaeve. I really don't see how her actions in this particular scenario can be defended.

 

And I adjusted your wording because we don't ever see Egwene thinking "I really need to get on this learning, I need to fight the Shadow". She really just wants to learn everything she can as fast as she can. Because that's her personality. She's quite ambitious. That's not a knock on her in and of itself. But atributing some kind of noble motivation to her going behind the Wise One's backs is an awfully generous interpretation of her intentions.

 

I wasn't commenting on the "lesson" itself. Egwene was obvs wrong. To say she is learning Tar and being Amrylin without having the ultimate goal of fighting the shadow in mind isn't fair. Are you implying that she is only working for power and not the greater good? She may be misguided in how she goes about it, but those are her intentions. While she always tries to be the best, we have seen a good deal of her inner thoughts showing how important it is for AS to change with the times and be ready for TG. Most of her meetings and what she is working for in Tar have that ultimate goal in mind. She trained in Tar gaining skills that helped her defeat a forsaken. Hence learning to fight the shadow.

 

In this case I would say that she is working for knowledge (rather than power) and not (necessarily) the greater good. Let's say I diet and exercise because it gives me energy, helps me look good, and maintain my health. I later get into a fight and win because I am strong and in great shape. So my exercise helped me in the fight but I wasn't training specifically to fight that person.

 

Again, I'm not really knocking Egwene here (at least for this particular thing). Her personality is that she wants to learn everything possible. She wants to know everything and be great at channeling. She wants to learn everything and be great in TAR. She wants to be a great politician. She would want to do this even if they weren't on the verge of the Last Battle. For the previous 1000 years the skills she wants to learn would have only been used moderately to fight the Shadow. Have the Aiel dreamwalkers been spending all their time fighting the Shadow? Have the Aes Sedai done much Shadow fighting since the end of the Trolloc Wars?

 

The skills she wants to learn will be helpful in the fight against the Shadow but, again, that's not her motivation and it seems generous to imply that is her end goal. She learns because she likes to learn. Nothing wrong with that. She will use the skills she learns to fight the Shadow, which is good. But her desire to learn (and, thus, actions like going behind the Wise Ones back) would still be there without the Shadow. So to imply that that is a major motivator for her seems a bit generous to me.

 

Fair enough...

 

For me I guess it comes down to just looking at the majority of what she and Elayne, Nyn have used it for and that has been the greater good. Defeating forsaken, fixing the worlds weather, reform of the WT/joining the channeling groups together, etc.

[Guest PiotrekS]

My point is that Nynaeve is an adult. Worse, she's an adult whose walked into a neighbourhood of people armed with guns, weilding nothing but a pointy stick, arrogantly certain she can take care of herself.

 

I only wanted to say that this kind of behaviour is typical of every main character in every possible situation in the series. Fight with the Forsaken in EotW? Mat going to the Finns, knowing nothing about the rules? Egwene wondering the World of Dreams before having met the WOs and later behind their backs? Nynaeve and Elayne on their adventures? Egwene and Aviendha facing Lanfear? Oh, and Egwene trying in TEotW to throw "her puny, untrained" power against Aginor...I guess Moiraine should have given Egwene a few scary moments with OP to teach her some humility afterwards...

 

Only in ToM we see characters going in fights after some decent preparation (Perrin v. Slayer, Rand at Maradon with all LTT knowledge, Mat at ToG, Egwene v. Meesana). Before, they were all running blindly into dangers and winning only thanks to luck or destiny or plot armour, so picking Egwene, one of the most arrogant, full of herself and careless characters in the entire series (three examples: her trying to fight Aginor with OP whe she was not even a novice, careless wondering the TAR and getting herself be caught by Elaida's Aes Sedai) to teach others lessons in care and humility is in itself wrong IMO, not to mention her actual motivation.

[Xcorpyo001]

My point is that Nynaeve is an adult. Worse, she's an adult whose walked into a neighbourhood of people armed with guns, weilding nothing but a pointy stick, arrogantly certain she can take care of herself.

 

I only wanted to say that this kind of behaviour is typical of every main character in every possible situation in the series. Fight with the Forsaken in EotW? Mat going to the Finns, knowing nothing about the rules? Egwene wondering the World of Dreams before having met the WOs and later behind their backs? Nynaeve and Elayne on their adventures? Egwene and Aviendha facing Lanfear? Oh, and Egwene trying in TEotW to throw "her puny, untrained" power against Aginor...I guess Moiraine should have given Egwene a few scary moments with OP to teach her some humility afterwards...

 

Only in ToM we see characters going in fights after some decent preparation (Perrin v. Slayer, Rand at Maradon with all LTT knowledge, Mat at ToG, Egwene v. Meesana). Before, they were all running blindly into dangers and winning only thanks to luck or destiny or plot armour, so picking Egwene, one of the most arrogant, full of herself and careless characters in the entire series (three examples: her trying to fight Aginor with OP whe she was not even a novice, careless wondering the TAR and getting herself be caught by Elaida's Aes Sedai) to teach others lessons in care and humility is in itself wrong IMO, not to mention her actual motivation.

 

 

Ahhh, the EotW book. Such great examples we could pick from there.

In the fight with Aginor, I understood her decision to try to fight him, even if it was pointless.

We couldn't just think that she will just wait for him to slit her throat. They all tried to fight in one way or another.

 

That is not the best episode I can remember from EotW to show her careless nature and her willingness to jump head first in any remotely dangerous situation, especially if someone tells her not to do it.

I can understand trying to protect others and yourself in the process, but doing something pointless is another thing.

Think about the scenes with the fire, when she's with Perrin, after they flee from SL.

Perrin tells her that he can make the fire, and it's dangerous for her to use the OP to do it, she knows that she is not allowed to try anything like that unsupervised(especially Fire), she knows that she can still or even kill herself, she also knows that there are Trollocs in the area, looking for them, and the use of OP will send a signal to any Fade in a large area around her, but she does it, every single night. They were lucky she failed.

 

Her teaching Nynaeve about the dangers of doing things without proper training or knowing all the risks, while still doing things the same way, makes me laugh every time.

Ooohhh, I remember her visiting Mordeth/Fain in the dungeons to talk about home. She was so sweet in the first couple of books.

[Suttree]

Only in ToM we see characters going in fights after some decent preparation (Perrin v. Slayer, Rand at Maradon with all LTT knowledge, Mat at ToG, Egwene v. Meesana). Before, they were all running blindly into dangers and winning only thanks to luck or destiny or plot armour, so picking Egwene, one of the most arrogant, full of herself and careless characters in the entire series (three examples: her trying to fight Aginor with OP whe she was not even a novice, careless wondering the TAR and getting herself be caught by Elaida's Aes Sedai) to teach others lessons in care and humility is in itself wrong IMO, not to mention her actual motivation.

 

Wouldn't tha fall under the "destiny" category?

[Rose]

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

[Hopefire]

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

Yeah, I assume that that's the case. Rand knew he could stop that incoming army with his skills and his power, without relying on the Pattern to come bail him out.

[Kahsm]

My point is that Nynaeve is an adult. Worse, she's an adult whose walked into a neighbourhood of people armed with guns, weilding nothing but a pointy stick, arrogantly certain she can take care of herself.

 

I only wanted to say that this kind of behaviour is typical of every main character in every possible situation in the series. Fight with the Forsaken in EotW? Mat going to the Finns, knowing nothing about the rules? Egwene wondering the World of Dreams before having met the WOs and later behind their backs? Nynaeve and Elayne on their adventures? Egwene and Aviendha facing Lanfear? Oh, and Egwene trying in TEotW to throw "her puny, untrained" power against Aginor...I guess Moiraine should have given Egwene a few scary moments with OP to teach her some humility afterwards...

 

Only in ToM we see characters going in fights after some decent preparation (Perrin v. Slayer, Rand at Maradon with all LTT knowledge, Mat at ToG, Egwene v. Meesana). Before, they were all running blindly into dangers and winning only thanks to luck or destiny or plot armour, so picking Egwene, one of the most arrogant, full of herself and careless characters in the entire series (three examples: her trying to fight Aginor with OP whe she was not even a novice, careless wondering the TAR and getting herself be caught by Elaida's Aes Sedai) to teach others lessons in care and humility is in itself wrong IMO, not to mention her actual motivation.

 

 

Ahhh, the EotW book. Such great examples we could pick from there.

In the fight with Aginor, I understood her decision to try to fight him, even if it was pointless.

We couldn't just think that she will just wait for him to slit her throat. They all tried to fight in one way or another.

 

That is not the best episode I can remember from EotW to show her careless nature and her willingness to jump head first in any remotely dangerous situation, especially if someone tells her not to do it.

I can understand trying to protect others and yourself in the process, but doing something pointless is another thing.

Think about the scenes with the fire, when she's with Perrin, after they flee from SL.

Perrin tells her that he can make the fire, and it's dangerous for her to use the OP to do it, she knows that she is not allowed to try anything like that unsupervised(especially Fire), she knows that she can still or even kill herself, she also knows that there are Trollocs in the area, looking for them, and the use of OP will send a signal to any Fade in a large area around her, but she does it, every single night. They were lucky she failed.

 

Her teaching Nynaeve about the dangers of doing things without proper training or knowing all the risks, while still doing things the same way, makes me laugh every time.

Ooohhh, I remember her visiting Mordeth/Fain in the dungeons to talk about home. She was so sweet in the first couple of books.

 

Birgitte told Mat about the ToG and Mat listened and took it to heart. If Mat told her he knew what he was doing, and dismissed her warnings, I don't think Birgitte would have shied away from beating some sense into him. But that's the difference, she didn't have to. The situations you pose are not congruent because they involve other characters with different personalities and relationships between them.

 

Takes two to tango, so to speak. Nynaeve and Egwene seem to be comfortable with the tango, to the point that Nynaeve is discomforted when Egwene is not yelling at her.

 

As for Egwene taking risks. She did not teach a lesson on "risk taking" in general, she taught a lesson about TAR, a topic she is absolutely more knowledgeable and experienced with than Nynaeve.

 

Furthermore, and this is for randsc too, Egwene doesn't tell Nynaeve not to use TAR, she's telling her to be careful and ensuring that Nynaeve takes the risks seriously.

 

I also tend to think part of this scene is Egwene standing up for the wise ones against Nynaeve, and that Nynaeve might actually be a little jealous that they are Egwene's new role models which is why Nynaeve is even more hateful and dismissive of them, but I don't really have any solid contextual evidence of that. Normally, I think Nynaeve would like them, but she feels replaced. See, I can make assumptions based on my perception of events and my understanding of social interactions too.

[Xcorpyo001]

Birgitte told Mat about the ToG and Mat listened and took it to heart. If Mat told her he knew what he was doing, and dismissed her warnings, I don't think Birgitte would have shied away from beating some sense into him. But that's the difference, she didn't have to. The situations you pose are not congruent because they involve other characters with different personalities and relationships between them.

 

Examples about Egwene in a talk about Egwene are not 'congruent'?!? Hmmm, you lost me on this one.

Or where you talking about PiotrekS' post?!?

 

Takes two to tango, so to speak. Nynaeve and Egwene seem to be comfortable with the tango, to the point that Nynaeve is discomforted when Egwene is not yelling at her.

 

So she should yell at her and hurt her by throwing her into a nightmare from time to time so she should be more comfortable? Aham. It may work. Nyn is thinking about that because that is how Egwene is usually talking with her. And yes, I would have chose the same alternative if the other way implies nightmares and wounds at every visit in TaR.

And about the tango part: from that point Egwene did all the dancing. She never tried to help them, explain to them why she's in a 'no comment' mood. Furthermore, she yells at them(in Sheriam's study...so no enlightenment there) or simply runs when she sees them. That is dancing alone. I see no tango there.

And since they are friends, she knows Nynaeve well enough to know that a warning will just push her farther in.

 

As for Egwene taking risks. She did not teach a lesson on "risk taking" in general, she taught a lesson about TAR, a topic she is absolutely more knowledgeable and experienced with than Nynaeve.

Aham...even the part about lying? What part of TaR training was that about?

What lesson did she teach, if it was not about the risks of TaR???

And about experience, she's a little more experienced than Nyn, although the results in TaR are favoring Nynaeve by a landslide, but she's weaker than everything else there.

At that moment in the timeline, rating only experience, Chosen>Slayer>WO>wolves>Egwene>Nynaeve>BA.

 

Furthermore, and this is for randsc too, Egwene doesn't tell Nynaeve not to use TAR, she's telling her to be careful and ensuring that Nynaeve takes the risks seriously.

And she listens to that advice as well, since is so good, right?

She is almost trapped by Moghe and gets trapped in Gawyn's dream.

She might be the first Dreamwalker to loose her virginity in TaR, considering all the blushing in the morning.

Knowing the risks. Right.

I would have understood that lesson coming from a WO, even approved, but Egwene couldn't even control her own nightmare. I think her idea was to just frighten Nynaeve long enough so she would forget her question about the WO allowing her to be there, not cut gashes on her back.

 

I also tend to think part of this scene is Egwene standing up for the wise ones against Nynaeve, and that Nynaeve might actually be a little jealous that they are Egwene's new role models which is why Nynaeve is even more hateful and dismissive of them, but I don't really have any solid contextual evidence of that.

 

Yep, you don't have that.

[randsc]

More like no textual evidence at all. It simply isn't there.

 

If you interpret absolutely every ambiguity in Egwene's favor, you still need to make up psychological motivations and impute ill-will to Nynaeve before you can cast the overall scene in Egwene's favor.

 

Give it up. Acknowledge that in at least THIS ONE INSTANCE, maybe Egwene's behavior was uncalled for. Even the most vociferous Egwene critics will acknowledge things she has done well, even if we don't think that those successes adequately counterbalance the negatives. You won't even acknowledge a single negative. Ridiculous.

[Xcorpyo001]

More like no textual evidence at all. It simply isn't there.

 

 

I think there is one small mentioning of Nynaeve being a little jealous on the fact that Egwene doesn't respect her anymore, but she's actually a little proud that she's grown.

But about being hateful, I can't remember any quote about that, at least not anything serious.

[randsc]

That's jealousy of Egwene, not of the Wise Ones. Kael simply made up the latter.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

 

 

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

Yeah, I assume that that's the case. Rand knew he could stop that incoming army with his skills and his power, without relying on the Pattern to come bail him out.

 

Yeah, thank you! That's exactly what I meant - as opposed to his earlier One Power battles, this was the first one when Rand was fully conscious of his abilities, the nature of Saidin etc. and could actually plan and foresee the results of his actions.

 

Kael, my examples were not supposed to show that other characters were or were not giving each other "sharp lessons", but that excessive risk-taking coupled with some arrogance and "I could handle everything myself" attitude is so omnipresent in the series that the characters should be giving each other such harsh lessons on every two pages if your rationale is correct, even taking into account that according to you Egwene and Nynaeve have this special "tough love" relationship.As it is, Egwene is the only one who went that far.

 

Furthermore, Egwene is one of the main culprits in "mindless risk-taking and overestimating one's capabilities", as my examples have shown, so apart from wondering whether her method was too harsh or not, it is still necessary to note that she was very hypocritical in berating Nynaeve for the kind of behaviour she is equally or even more likely to engage in. Her indignation over Nynaeve's carelessness is especially grating when you think about her own behaviour.